NFL Football Thread

[CarsonPalmer]

I wouldn't call this Chargers loss a choke. It was a great performance by the Patriots in the late game, helped by some monumentally stupid penalties and some terrifically lucky plays by the Patriots. The idiotic taunting penalty, the bad break on the interception, and a good job by the Patriots of not passing up any chances killed the Bolts.

I'm a Tomlinson fan but he acted very unprofessionally at the end of the game.

[Col. Crackpot]

that game gave me a series of small heart attacks. i'm getting too old for this shit.

[Elfdart]

I'm a Tomlinson fan but he acted very unprofessionally at the end of the game.

What did he do?

[Medic]

that game gave me a series of small heart attacks. i'm getting too old for this shit.

God help me when I'm your age.

Seriously, the thing about the Saints, I needed to say that. That loss really did suck. I'm sure Patriots fans are on Cloud 9. Good for fucking them and their blessed asses.

Speaking of choke jobs, I hope Peyton Manning has yet another one next week.

Yeah that's the worst part about it, the Patriots just went to the Super Bowl by beating the Chargers. The Ravens choking yesterday really just meant it was a 2 game trip for the Pats. It's like they've got a number 1 seed in football heaven.

Now I know how Rams, Panthers and Eagles fans feel. Especially the latter.

I'm a Tomlinson fan but he acted very unprofessionally at the end of the game.

What did he do?

I didn't see exactly what, but he had some choice words for some Patriots celebrating, I don't know if they got in his way or he went to them, and I frankly don't give a fuck either.

edit:

I hear you guys might need a new coach. I don't know much about football, but I guarantee I won't choke on the big one!

Seriously, was that spur of the moment, for this week, or pre-packaged from even-more-distant pigskin travesty's?

[Darth Garden Gnome]

Man, are the Pats the luckiest team in the NFL or what? From tuck rule all those years ago to a fumbled pick today... they never catch a bad break.

Speaking of which... does it ever occur to DBs to bat down those passes instead of intercepting them? It's usually a desperation throw on fourth down, you're bound to get better field position if you just knock it out of the air. Some fate worse than death like what happened to McCree is pretty unforeseeable, but it still just makes sense to leave that ball alone.

[Elfdart]

I was just a little kid when the Chargers lost the 1980 AFC Championship because of a fluke tipped pass, and cried my eyes out. I'm older and wiser now (and don't cry over games), but this loss leaves that same sickening feeling in my stomach. It's even worse now because I saw it coming. I knew Marty Schottenheimer would blow it and he did. It's like the feeling in Obi-Wan Kenobi's heart when he turned on the hologram and saw Anakin slaughtering padawan learners. He suspected all along that Anakin couldn't be trusted, but it didn't lessen the sting of defeat and betrayal.

So while that particular photo of Jenna Jameson wasn't planned (by the way, do you how many pictures I had to search through on the internet before I found one of Jenna without a dick in her mouth?), the sentiment behind it was lurking in my mind for a long time.

The one good thing that could come out of this disgrace is if Schottenheimer is replaced by a coach who can win playoff games. Three straight years of having the best talent in the league and not a single playoff win to show for it sucks out loud.

[Patrick Degan]

Where both the Saints and Eagles last night afraid of meeting the Bears, because it seemed like they both tried to loose the game at the end. First the Saints just give the ball to the Eagles. Then the Eagles, on 4th and 15, punt. They fucking punt. Against a team whose rushing they hadn't stopped all night. You punt you loose, you go for it you only might loose. Ah well. Go Saints.

That turnover was the only miscue in what was otherwise a very tight and effective offensive performance by New Orleans the whole game.

That's one of the goddamn dumbest decisions I've seen out of Fat Andy in his entire tenure here, and I've seen a lot of dumb decisions out of him. There's less than two minutes left and you have two timeouts. You're down by three. If you go for it and miss, the Saints will have the ball in field goal range. So the fuck what? If you stop them and they kick a field goal, you can still beat them with a touchdown. If you don't stop them, it doesn't matter. They pick up the first down, they can kneel on the ball and end the game. Jesus Christ, how does the same guy who throws it on third and one at the three (another horrible decision that might have cost us the game) punt in that situation?

Uh uh. At two minutes left to go you're playing Beat the Clock. It's easier to get to field goal range to tie a three-point deficit rather than trying to drive all the way for a touchdown against a defence which had been getting increasingly effective against stopping the Eagles' attempts at the end zone (as they did in that last series which forced Philly to settle for three to cut the lead in half) if you're down by six. Give up the ball on downs with the Saints well into your own territory and you're essentially conceding another score right then and there —and if they get the touchdown, the Eagles are totally fucked. And at 1:48 the Saints couldn't simply kneel down four times; they'd have to make at least one first down to keep control of the ball. It was a case where there was no really good decision to make so you have to go with the lesser of the two evils: put the Saints back in their own backfield and look for a chance to regain possession and run a hurry-up offence with less than a minute to go. And the Eagles had been more successful with the pass-attack and the big play than they'd been on the ground.

[RedImperator]

That's one of the goddamn dumbest decisions I've seen out of Fat Andy in his entire tenure here, and I've seen a lot of dumb decisions out of him. There's less than two minutes left and you have two timeouts. You're down by three. If you go for it and miss, the Saints will have the ball in field goal range. So the fuck what? If you stop them and they kick a field goal, you can still beat them with a touchdown. If you don't stop them, it doesn't matter. They pick up the first down, they can kneel on the ball and end the game. Jesus Christ, how does the same guy who throws it on third and one at the three (another horrible decision that might have cost us the game) punt in that situation?

Uh uh. At two minutes left to go you're playing Beat the Clock. It's easier to get to field goal range to tie a three-point deficit rather than trying to drive all the way for a touchdown against a defence which had been getting increasingly effective against stopping the Eagles' attempts at the end zone (as they did in that last series which forced Philly to settle for three to cut the lead in half) if you're down by six.

And you have even less chance of scoring anything if you don't have the ball. Punting means the defense has to stop Deuce McAllister from picking up a first down on the ground, something they were entirely incapable of doing all night long. Everyone in the stadium except Fat Andy knew the Eagles were never going to see that ball again once they punted it away.

Give up the ball on downs with the Saints well into your own territory and you're essentially conceding another score right then and there —and if they get the touchdown, the Eagles are totally fucked.

The touchdown is totally irrelevant. A first down wins the game for the Saints, and it doesn't matter if they get it at their own thirty or the Eagles'.

And at 1:48 the Saints couldn't simply kneel down four times; they'd have to make at least one first down to keep control of the ball.

Wow, that's a good point. One that I made in the post to which you responded, in fact. The Saints win on a first down, and the only way to prevent the first down is to stop Deuce McAllister, which the Eagles couldn't do, or keep the ball out of his hands in the first place.

It was a case where there was no really good decision to make so you have to go with the lesser of the two evils: put the Saints back in their own backfield and look for a chance to regain possession and run a hurry-up offence with less than a minute to go. And the Eagles had been more successful with the pass-attack and the big play than they'd been on the ground.

The Eagles were not getting that ball back. The defense has been bad against the run all year, had been getting pounded by McAllister from the beginning of the game, and were by that point completely exhausted and probably demoralized. On the other hand, they had just picked up 20 yards on the play that got called back, and had been abusing the Saints secondary all night. The probability of stopping the Saints once they had the ball was near zero; you might as well throw it because you have nothing to lose if you don't convert.

[Patrick Degan]

And all of that would be a nice argument if the Eagles' 4th-and-ten conversion hadn't been called back on the holding penalty. At 4th-and-15 they may as well have thrown a Hail Mary —since the Saints would otherwise have been expecting the same play as the previous one if they'd gone for it.

[RedImperator]

And all of that would be a nice argument if the Eagles' 4th-and-ten conversion hadn't been called back on the holding penalty. At 4th-and-15 they may as well have thrown a Hail Mary —since the Saints would otherwise have been expecting the same play as the previous one if they'd gone for it.

1) What does the false start call have to do with the defense's utter inability to stop the Saints run?

2) What makes you think the team which lead the NFL in yards per pass completion doesn't have more than one long pass in the playbook?

3) Do you think the Saints weren't expecting a long pass on 4th-and-10? They couldn't stop them the first time and they knew more or less what was coming.

[Elfdart]

I saw the video. Some of the Patriot players were chanting "MVP" at Tomlinson and making fun of Shaun Merriman. Tomlinson started to go over and do something about it, but was impeded by several players. Then at the post game press conference said New England's players have no class and it probably comes from their coach.

I don't remember the Chargers or their fans making a huge fuss over Tom Brady's refusal to shake Drew Brees' hand after the Chargers beat the Patriots last year.

If the shoe fits...

It's probably just frustration on Tomlinson's part.

[Patrick Degan]

And all of that would be a nice argument if the Eagles' 4th-and-ten conversion hadn't been called back on the holding penalty. At 4th-and-15 they may as well have thrown a Hail Mary —since the Saints would otherwise have been expecting the same play as the previous one if they'd gone for it.

1) What does the false start call have to do with the defense's utter inability to stop the Saints run?

2) What makes you think the team which lead the NFL in yards per pass completion doesn't have more than one long pass in the playbook?

3) Do you think the Saints weren't expecting a long pass on 4th-and-10? They couldn't stop them the first time and they knew more or less what was coming.

Uh huh. And Garcia just barely got that pass off before a Saint put him on his ass, and it was more luck that anything else that Hank Baskett made the catch. So the Eagles try that play again, and the Saints front-load on the blitz. They blew through their line once already.

[Flagg]

I saw the video. Some of the Patriot players were chanting "MVP" at Tomlinson and making fun of Shaun Merriman. Tomlinson started to go over and do something about it, but was impeded by several players. Then at the post game press conference said New England's players have no class and it probably comes from their coach.

I don't remember the Chargers or their fans making a huge fuss over Tom Brady's refusal to shake Drew Brees' hand after the Chargers beat the Patriots last year.

If the shoe fits...

It's probably just frustration on Tomlinson's part.

There were a few times when it looked like the Patriots were taking cheap shots at Chargers players between plays that went uncalled by the refs, too. Which is probably why a few Chargers responded with those 2 idiotic unnecessary roughness penalties.

[Flagg]

And all of that would be a nice argument if the Eagles' 4th-and-ten conversion hadn't been called back on the holding penalty. At 4th-and-15 they may as well have thrown a Hail Mary —since the Saints would otherwise have been expecting the same play as the previous one if they'd gone for it.

1) What does the false start call have to do with the defense's utter inability to stop the Saints run?

2) What makes you think the team which lead the NFL in yards per pass completion doesn't have more than one long pass in the playbook?

3) Do you think the Saints weren't expecting a long pass on 4th-and-10? They couldn't stop them the first time and they knew more or less what was coming.

Uh huh. And Garcia just barely got that pass off before a Saint put him on his ass, and it was more luck that anything else that Hank Baskett made the catch. So the Eagles try that play again, and the Saints front-load on the blitz. They blew through their line once already.

Wait, so according to you, trying for the 4th down conversion when punting essentially guarantees a Saints win is a stupid move? Are you retarded?

[Patrick Degan]

1) What does the false start call have to do with the defense's utter inability to stop the Saints run?

2) What makes you think the team which lead the NFL in yards per pass completion doesn't have more than one long pass in the playbook?

3) Do you think the Saints weren't expecting a long pass on 4th-and-10? They couldn't stop them the first time and they knew more or less what was coming.

Uh huh. And Garcia just barely got that pass off before a Saint put him on his ass, and it was more luck that anything else that Hank Baskett made the catch. So the Eagles try that play again, and the Saints front-load on the blitz. They blew through their line once already.

Wait, so according to you, trying for the 4th down conversion when punting essentially guarantees a Saints win is a stupid move? Are you retarded?

No, according to me, there wasn't a good decision to make in that situation. Trying for it on 4th-and-ten was a gamble as it was. On 4th-and-15 on your own 35... I don't know too many coaches who'd buck conventional wisdom and decide against the punt.

[Flagg]

Uh huh. And Garcia just barely got that pass off before a Saint put him on his ass, and it was more luck that anything else that Hank Baskett made the catch. So the Eagles try that play again, and the Saints front-load on the blitz. They blew through their line once already.

Wait, so according to you, trying for the 4th down conversion when punting essentially guarantees a Saints win is a stupid move? Are you retarded?

No, according to me, there wasn't a good decision to make in that situation. Trying for it on 4th-and-ten was a gamble as it was. On 4th-and-15 on your own 35... I don't know too many coaches who'd buck conventional wisdom and decide against the punt.

It's not a good position to be in, but clearly making an attempt at making the conversion is the better choice, since giving the Saints the ball ensures a win for them. And even if a miracle occured and they didn't get a first down, the Eagles wouldn't have had enough time to run the ball back up the field.

[Elfdart]

There were a few times when it looked like the Patriots were taking cheap shots at Chargers players between plays that went uncalled by the refs, too. Which is probably why a few Chargers responded with those 2 idiotic unnecessary roughness penalties.

That might be true, but the fact that Tomlinson only got to touch the ball eight times in the second half probably had more to do with it.

I wish the Chargers would hire Mike Martz as HC. When he got his foot on the other team's jugular, he put more weight on it rather than letting up.

[Master of Ossus]

There were a few times when it looked like the Patriots were taking cheap shots at Chargers players between plays that went uncalled by the refs, too. Which is probably why a few Chargers responded with those 2 idiotic unnecessary roughness penalties.

It still wasn't anywhere NEAR as unjust as that call in the Giants-Philadelphia game, when Jon Runyan hammered one Giant on a cheap shot after the play was dead, went on to shove another defensive player to the ground, and then drew an offsetting penalty when the player he cheap-shotted first comes to the defense of his teammate and gives him a little push from the side.

[Medic]

I remember reading an article how snap judgments were better than more thought out ones, so I'm defaulting to hate of Marty. I was NEVER enthused when we hired the guy, and lo and behold! We have a KC Chiefs, regular-season BEAST for the 2000's! They just moved from KC to SD.

I mean this is almost as ridiculous as the Jaguars 15-3 1999 season. They were the best team in football, 14-2, but lost to the Titans twice in their regular season matchups. They DESTROYED the Dolphins in Marino's last game something like 62-7 but then... lost to the Titans again. They put up the most pro-bowlers of any team but didn't do shit and won't be remembered by all but NFL history buffs... or guys on the bandwagon at the time. *ahem* Both had weak schedules, but with the Chargers, it's deceptively weak looking in a cutthroat AFC West. It's also the case that in the past years, the Chargers with similar or less amounts of talent have beaten the Colts and Patriots, so you know it's not a record padded entirely by weak competition.

Same idea here though: a team LOADED WITH talent. The Chargers personnel is clearly better and it's not like the Patriots out-played us either, they were handled almost as bad by the Chargers O-line as the Eagles were all night. (sorry for that Red, but it's true) You get the real sense that the better team didn't win. Take away penalties and ridiculous flukes and there's only a few matchups that favored the Patriots, like their cornerback that shadowed Eric Parker.

It's WORSE though cause at least Jacksonville was loaded with talent but got beat up PHYSICALLY by the Titans. The Chargers were the more physical team in that game.

[Patrick Degan]

No, according to me, there wasn't a good decision to make in that situation. Trying for it on 4th-and-ten was a gamble as it was. On 4th-and-15 on your own 35... I don't know too many coaches who'd buck conventional wisdom and decide against the punt.

It's not a good position to be in, but clearly making an attempt at making the conversion is the better choice, since giving the Saints the ball ensures a win for them. And even if a miracle occured and they didn't get a first down, the Eagles wouldn't have had enough time to run the ball back up the field.

When the Saints got their first down in that last series, there was 1:34 left on the clock. Games have been tied or won in that amount of time before. Had the Eagles gotten the ball back in that instance, they'd still have had an outside chance to close to field-goal range at the least.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

When the Saints got their first down in that last series, there was 1:34 left on the clock. Games have been tied or won in that amount of time before. Had the Eagles gotten the ball back in that instance, they'd still have had an outside chance to close to field-goal range at the least.

I guess it comes down to whether you think they had a better chance of stopping Deuce or getting the first down on a long pass play. The way he was running all over Philly up until that point, I couldn't believe they went with the punt. How quickly Andy Reid has forgotten 4th and 26...

[LMSx]

I don't have much to add about the San Diego/NE game, except that it was a lot of fun to watch Belicheck completely abandon the run and give Brady 51 passing attempts. I think the record is 70 or something, from a Bledsoe NE game in the 90s.

[Col. Crackpot]

The leauge and CBS now get what they want. A Manning vs Brady matchup and all of the ludicris hype that goes with it. That should prove interesting. If Manning chokes against the Pats again, maybe the pundits will finally re-evaluate their quarterback rankings.

[RedImperator]

And all of that would be a nice argument if the Eagles' 4th-and-ten conversion hadn't been called back on the holding penalty. At 4th-and-15 they may as well have thrown a Hail Mary —since the Saints would otherwise have been expecting the same play as the previous one if they'd gone for it.

1) What does the false start call have to do with the defense's utter inability to stop the Saints run?

2) What makes you think the team which lead the NFL in yards per pass completion doesn't have more than one long pass in the playbook?

3) Do you think the Saints weren't expecting a long pass on 4th-and-10? They couldn't stop them the first time and they knew more or less what was coming.

Uh huh. And Garcia just barely got that pass off before a Saint put him on his ass, and it was more luck that anything else that Hank Baskett made the catch. So the Eagles try that play again, and the Saints front-load on the blitz. They blew through their line once already.

Which is still better than giving the game away on a punt. The Eagles are in a shitty situation and are probably going to lose anyway, but going for it at least gives them a shot. Even calling a playground style "everybody go long" play is better than punting there, because there's no fucking way they were stopping McAllister. So what if Garcia gets sacked trying it, or the pass falls incomplete, or gets intercepted, or any other damn thing? The end result is the same: three straight handoffs to McAllister, a first down conversion, and the Saints kneel on the ball to run out the clock.

You and Reid would be absolutely right if the Eagles defense had shown any ability to stop the run in that game (or any time this season, frankly), but they didn't. Going for it probably loses the game--punting definitely does.

[Patrick Degan]

You and Reid would be absolutely right if the Eagles defense had shown any ability to stop the run in that game (or any time this season, frankly), but they didn't. Going for it probably loses the game--punting definitely does.

Failing to convert and turning the ball over on their own 35 hands New Orleans another easy score for dead certain. Punt the ball, and you lose. Hand the ball to a Saints team already well in FG range, and you lose. Again, this was a situation where there really was no good choice to make. As it was, the Eagles defence had kept McAllister to 32 yards total for the fourth quarter —less than half the Saints' rushing yards of the third quarter alone, so the New Orleans offence was getting tired. And as for the "lousy run-defence all season" argument, New Orleans is not that much better against the run (23rd in the league) than Philadelphia (26th) —that also is our biggest weakness. It was a vanishingly thin hope at best, but so would going for it on 4th-and-15 had been.

Both teams were about evenly matched in strengths and weaknesses. The plain fact is that New Orleans was able to go to the well one time more than Philadelphia but that game could have gone either way. Indeed, Philadelphia was in a better 4th quarter position this past Saturday than in the previous matchup with the Saints when we played ball-control for the last eight minutes of that game and closed for the winning FG at 0:03.