Why must monotheism be the standard?

[Magus]

"Those who understand Christianity properly" being those who agree with your view of it, I take it. Plenty of people do believe they have powers, and act in such a way towards them that to an outsider like myself is impossible to tell from worship. Given that there is no objective reality behind Christian mythology we can use to settle the issue, their view of such matters is as valid as yours.

Granted, there are plenty of people who do this. What I meant to point out is that I don't believe that this sort of behavior is a part of the creed of any Christian denomination, and so such behavior is underground.

[Darth Wong]

"Underground" like those throngs of people who come to hold up their babies to the Pope when he passes by, as if mere proximity to him will cure their ills and bring them closer to God?

[Plekhanov]

I don't know about that, one of the most successful varieties of Christianity, Catholicism is effectively polytheistic (even though adherents tend to deny this) with the major role of Mary & all the Saints.

This is factually incorrect.

Catholics don't just pray to Yahweh, they also pray to Mary who is an enormously important figure in the faith, there are statues of her in catholic churches and. Catholics also pray to a multitude of saints who like Mary are made into idols (medals, statues, relics etc) and have churches dedicated to them. How is that not 'effectively polytheistic'?

[Plekhanov]

"Those who understand Christianity properly" being those who agree with your view of it, I take it. Plenty of people do believe they have powers, and act in such a way towards them that to an outsider like myself is impossible to tell from worship. Given that there is no objective reality behind Christian mythology we can use to settle the issue, their view of such matters is as valid as yours.

Granted, there are plenty of people who do this. What I meant to point out is that I don't believe that this sort of behavior is a part of the creed of any Christian denomination, and so such behavior is underground.

Really so the obsession with the 'holy virgin' who has shrines and churches dedicated to her all over the world, praying to saints and the adoration of the Pope is all 'underground' Catholicism is it

[Magus]

Really so the obsession with the 'holy virgin' who has shrines and churches dedicated to her all over the world, praying to saints and the adoration of the Pope is all 'underground' Catholicism is it

Dedicating a building is a sign of respect. We have George Washington and MLK schools all over. Schools are named after important figures in government or education (or those who pay a lot of money). Churches are named after important religious figures. It makes sense. Neither one is deification of said individual.

As I said before, according to the Catholic faith at any rate, prayer to a saint is asking for an intercession to God on one's behalf - not asking for that particular saint "take action" himself. Since saints are not considered to have the power to actually do anything, they cannot be considered gods, and this is therefor not deification.

Belief that the Pope is the representative of God on earth does not make the Pope a God, any more than an ambassador is representative of his respective king.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Really so the obsession with the 'holy virgin' who has shrines and churches dedicated to her all over the world, praying to saints and the adoration of the Pope is all 'underground' Catholicism is it

Dedicating a building is a sign of respect. We have George Washington and MLK schools all over. Schools are named after important figures in government or education (or those who pay a lot of money). Churches are named after important religious figures. It makes sense. Neither one is deification of said individual.

As I said before, according to the Catholic faith at any rate, prayer to a saint is asking for an intercession to God on one's behalf - not asking for that particular saint "take action" himself. Since saints are not considered to have the power to actually do anything, they cannot be considered gods, and this is therefor not deification.

Belief that the Pope is the representative of God on earth does not make the Pope a God, any more than an ambassador is representative of his respective king.

Bullshit. If people are praying to a saint, or to the pope, or to Mary, it means that they think their prayers will be more effectively answered through the intercession of the above figures than they would be going directly to 'god'. Thus, these figures have power in this religious worldview, even if it's more of an ambassadorial power. If they didn't, why the fuck would anyone pray to them?

The whole point of praying is to ask a 'greater power' to help you out.

But then again, once you've rationalized the worship of three gods, the acknowledgement of a fourth, and a host of demigods into 'monotheism', you can rationalize anything.

[Magus]

Dedicating a building is a sign of respect. We have George Washington and MLK schools all over. Schools are named after important figures in government or education (or those who pay a lot of money). Churches are named after important religious figures. It makes sense. Neither one is deification of said individual.

As I said before, according to the Catholic faith at any rate, prayer to a saint is asking for an intercession to God on one's behalf - not asking for that particular saint "take action" himself. Since saints are not considered to have the power to actually do anything, they cannot be considered gods, and this is therefor not deification.

Belief that the Pope is the representative of God on earth does not make the Pope a God, any more than an ambassador is representative of his respective king.

Bullshit. If people are praying to a saint, or to the pope, or to Mary, it means that they think their prayers will be more effectively answered through the intercession of the above figures than they would be going directly to 'god'. Thus, these figures have power in this religious worldview, even if it's more of an ambassadorial power. If they didn't, why the fuck would anyone pray to them?

The whole point of praying is to ask a 'greater power' to help you out.

So? Catholics often ask their friends and family to pray for them if they're going through a hard time. Why? Because "they think their prayers will be more effectively answered through the intercession" of their friends. Or their priest, or whoever.

But I see where you're coming from. It think this has devolved into semantics. I define God as simply the "big man upstairs." You seem to define God as the deity and all beings of supernatural power. From this viewpoint, I agree that Christianity is indeed a polytheism.

[Plekhanov]

Really so the obsession with the 'holy virgin' who has shrines and churches dedicated to her all over the world, praying to saints and the adoration of the Pope is all 'underground' Catholicism is it

Dedicating a building is a sign of respect. We have George Washington and MLK schools all over. Schools are named after important figures in government or education (or those who pay a lot of money). Churches are named after important religious figures. It makes sense. Neither one is deification of said individual.

And do the people in MLK school say prayers to secular figures like MLK, Mandella and so forth and ask them to intervene in their lives? Obviously not, they do however do this to the Virgin and Saints that churches are named after and shrines devoted to, the secular examples you give aren’t the same at all.

As I said before, according to the Catholic faith at any rate, prayer to a saint is asking for an intercession to God on one's behalf - not asking for that particular saint "take action" himself. Since saints are not considered to have the power to actually do anything, they cannot be considered gods, and this is therefor not deification.

And taking a pilgrimage to a saint’s or one of the Virgin’s shrines bowing down before it and referring to the Saint/virgin by name in prayers is distinct in any meaningful way from praying to the saint/virgin how exactly?

I appreciate that the Catholic church claims to be monotheistic but my argument is not that it is officially polytheistic but ‘effectively polytheistic’, catholic theologians can try to split hairs over the difference between ‘venerating’ and ‘adoring’ but they amount to the same thing.

I note in your post you studiously avoid any mention of Mary, quite understandably as the ‘Cult of the Virgin’ and the major role it takes in Catholicism is one of the clearest ways in which Catholicism is effectively polytheistic. From the Marian prayers (Hail Mary full of grace…), to all the visions of Mary and the mass pilgrimages made to the sites of such visions, the side altars to Mary present in so many Catholic churches, the bizarre obsession with her ‘perpetual virginity’, attempts to officially make her ‘co-redemptrix’…. She just has much to significant a role for Catholicism to be regarded as a pure monotheism.

Belief that the Pope is the representative of God on earth does not make the Pope a God, any more than an ambassador is representative of his respective king.

Again you seem to be under the impression that the official Catholic theory of what the pope is and how people should interact with him overrides the reality of how people regard the pope and the cults that have built up around some of them.

[Howedar]

I don't know about that, one of the most successful varieties of Christianity, Catholicism is effectively polytheistic (even though adherents tend to deny this) with the major role of Mary & all the Saints.

This is factually incorrect.

Catholics don't just pray to Yahweh, they also pray to Mary who is an enormously important figure in the faith, there are statues of her in catholic churches and. Catholics also pray to a multitude of saints who like Mary are made into idols (medals, statues, relics etc) and have churches dedicated to them. How is that not 'effectively polytheistic'?

Because the saints are not "prayed to" in anything like the same sense of the word as praying to God. The rest is a pile of strawmen.

[Plekhanov]

So? Catholics often ask their friends and family to pray for them if they're going through a hard time. Why? Because "they think their prayers will be more effectively answered through the intercession" of their friends. Or their priest, or whoever.

That's not the same thing at all as people don't actually pray to their friends or priest do they? Catholics do however pray to a saint whilst holding a medal pf that saint in their hand, whilst kneeling at a shrine dedicated to the saint with artistic depictions of the saint on the shrine, can you really not see a difference between that and asking a friend to pray for you?

But I see where you're coming from. It think this has devolved into semantics. I define God as simply the "big man upstairs." You seem to define God as the deity and all beings of supernatural power. From this viewpoint, I agree that Christianity is indeed a polytheism.

The only one resorting to semantics here is you, it's hardly semantics to point out that a religion with one big god a massively significant goddess and thousands of demigods hardly meets the definition of monotheism. This is however specific to Catholicism not Christianity in general the protestant dominations of which that I'm aware of can properly be described as monotheistic even if the trinity thing is rather confusing.

[Plekhanov]

This is factually incorrect.

Catholics don't just pray to Yahweh, they also pray to Mary who is an enormously important figure in the faith, there are statues of her in catholic churches and. Catholics also pray to a multitude of saints who like Mary are made into idols (medals, statues, relics etc) and have churches dedicated to them. How is that not 'effectively polytheistic'?

Because the saints are not "prayed to" in anything like the same sense of the word as praying to God.

And what is the significant difference between praying to Mary or some Saint or to Yahweh?

The rest is a pile of strawmen.

Why because you say so?

[Magus]

And do the people in MLK school say prayers to secular figures like MLK, Mandella and so forth and ask them to intervene in their lives? Obviously not, they do however do this to the Virgin and Saints that churches are named after and shrines devoted to, the secular examples you give aren’t the same at all.

I am only talking about the "naming a church" aspect - I'm not trying to apply the analogy to veneration, which is discussed below.

And taking a pilgrimage to a saint’s or one of the Virgin’s shrines bowing down before it and referring to the Saint/virgin by name in prayers is distinct in any meaningful way from praying to the saint/virgin how exactly?

To a non-Catholic, there isn't a difference. The official Catholic position is that there is a difference, however, which is why I made the claim that treating saints as gods is "underground" - not condoned by a denomination.

I appreciate that the Catholic church claims to be monotheistic but my argument is not that it is officially polytheistic but ‘effectively polytheistic’, catholic theologians can try to split hairs over the difference between ‘venerating’ and ‘adoring’ but they amount to the same thing.

No argument there - if I misunderstood you before, I apologize.

I note in your post you studiously avoid any mention of Mary, quite understandably as the ‘Cult of the Virgin’ and the major role it takes in Catholicism is one of the clearest ways in which Catholicism is effectively polytheistic. From the Marian prayers (Hail Mary full of grace…), to all the visions of Mary and the mass pilgrimages made to the sites of such visions, the side altars to Mary present in so many Catholic churches, the bizarre obsession with her ‘perpetual virginity’, attempts to officially make her ‘co-redemptrix’…. She just has much to significant a role for Catholicism to be regarded as a pure monotheism.

I just lumped her in with the saints. Sure, she's the "biggest and baddest," which is why she gets all the special attention.

Again you seem to be under the impression that the official Catholic theory of what the pope is and how people should interact with him overrides the reality of how people regard the pope and the cults that have built up around some of them.

I merely believe that, because the official theory disagrees with common perception, the "Mary is God" movement is a grassroots one.

[Howedar]

And what is the significant difference between praying to Mary or some Saint or to Yahweh?

The fact that, as taught and believed and expressed and presented by the Roman Catholic Church, the saints are "prayed to" in hopes that they can use their intercessionary mojo to talk to God about helping the person who is praying. Rather as though if you're trying to get a favor out of your friend, talking to his mom about it isn't a bad way to improve your odds.

I don't want to mis-characterize anything. I am sympathetic to the viewpoint that many Catholics are sufficiently devoted to one or more saints that their personal religious practice could be seen as effectively polytheistic. But to jump from that to saying that in general "Catholicism is effectively polytheistic", that takes a little more support on your part.

The rest is a pile of strawmen.

Why because you say so?

Oh, by all means, explain why devoting a building to someone means that you worship them as a deity.

[Darth Wong]

The fact that, as taught and believed and expressed and presented by the Roman Catholic Church, the saints are "prayed to" in hopes that they can use their intercessionary mojo to talk to God about helping the person who is praying. Rather as though if you're trying to get a favor out of your friend, talking to his mom about it isn't a bad way to improve your odds.

Oh right, and all of those people who make pilgrimages to Virgin Mary shrines in the hopes that mere contact with the precious waters will heal their children don't exist.

Besides, the Bible has plenty of entities besides God who have supernatural powers, such as Satan and various angels. How is that not effectively polytheistic?

[Howedar]

The fact that, as taught and believed and expressed and presented by the Roman Catholic Church, the saints are "prayed to" in hopes that they can use their intercessionary mojo to talk to God about helping the person who is praying. Rather as though if you're trying to get a favor out of your friend, talking to his mom about it isn't a bad way to improve your odds.

Oh right, and all of those people who make pilgrimages to Virgin Mary shrines in the hopes that mere contact with the precious waters will heal their children don't exist.

Nice selective quoting, Mike. I feel no need to address this, since I already did so.

Besides, the Bible has plenty of entities besides God who have supernatural powers, such as Satan and various angels. How is that not effectively polytheistic?

I pondered this one for a while, then realized that off the top of my head I can't think of any "monotheistic" religion that does not share that detail.

So perhaps the argument I'd rather be making is that Catholicism is not inherently any less monotheistic than any other religion.

I'll gladly amend that comment if a truly monotheistic religion is mentioned, but I really can't think of any.

[Darth Wong]

Nice selective quoting, Mike. I feel no need to address this, since I already did so.

Where? The part where you implied that you can't say anything about Catholic beliefs based on the behaviour of Catholics, unless you have official church sanction? I know Catholics value their silly church hierarchy, but Catholics are still a group of people, and if large numbers of Catholics believe something, then why can't we say it? This kind of thing is common practice in South America, which is one of the real strongholds of Catholicism.

Besides, the Bible has plenty of entities besides God who have supernatural powers, such as Satan and various angels. How is that not effectively polytheistic?

I pondered this one for a while, then realized that off the top of my head I can't think of any "monotheistic" religion that does not share that detail.

So perhaps the argument I'd rather be making is that Catholicism is not inherently any less monotheistic than any other religion.

I'll gladly amend that comment if a truly monotheistic religion is mentioned, but I really can't think of any.

I don't see why the argument that Christianity is not truly monotheistic somehow requires that a true monotheistic religion exists.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Now that I think about it, it seems to me that these wishy-washy drug-addled New Age notions of Brahministic divinity without a personality are more like monotheism than the suggested "monotheistic" religions. It would explain why followers of the idea find it so palatable - it's the first "real" model of monotheism in common knowledge.

[Haruko]

It helps that they are woefully ignorant of other religions such as Hinduism.

Just a nitpick, but aren't the gods of Hinduism all part of the one common "godhead"? In other words, all manifestations of the single, main god. It reminds me of the Christian Trinity, where there are many but yet only one. I'm ignorant of the existence of religions today rivaling or exceeding one or more of the major Abrahamic religions in adherents whereas their brand of polytheism is more "true" in that the gods are not all just different manifestations of the common godhead, but truly independent gods.

[Darth Wong]

It helps that they are woefully ignorant of other religions such as Hinduism.

Just a nitpick, but aren't the gods of Hinduism all part of the one common "godhead"? In other words, all manifestations of the single, main god. It reminds me of the Christian Trinity, where there are many but yet only one. I'm ignorant of the existence of religions today rivaling or exceeding one or more of the major Abrahamic religions in adherents whereas their brand of polytheism is more "true" in that the gods are not all just different manifestations of the common godhead, but truly independent gods.

I dunno, if they have different personalities then I'd tend to think they're independent, even if they're said to be part of one greater whole. After all, you and I are part of a greater whole as well (western society), but we're not the same person.

[Haruko]

I looked it up and below I quote the clarification with an interesting point (highlighted below) I found at Hinduwebsite.com:

1. According to Hinduism God is one, but also Many. The One becomes many and the many have to begin their journey finally towards the One as a process of creation.

[Howedar]

Nice selective quoting, Mike. I feel no need to address this, since I already did so.

Where? The part where you implied that you can't say anything about Catholic beliefs based on the behaviour of Catholics, unless you have official church sanction? I know Catholics value their silly church hierarchy, but Catholics are still a group of people, and if large numbers of Catholics believe something, then why can't we say it? This kind of thing is common practice in South America, which is one of the real strongholds of Catholicism.

No, the part where I thought that I made it clear that it depends on the numbers of Catholics doing such. Stating that it's "common practice" isn't exactly quantitative.

I pondered this one for a while, then realized that off the top of my head I can't think of any "monotheistic" religion that does not share that detail.

So perhaps the argument I'd rather be making is that Catholicism is not inherently any less monotheistic than any other religion.

I'll gladly amend that comment if a truly monotheistic religion is mentioned, but I really can't think of any.

I don't see why the argument that Christianity is not truly monotheistic somehow requires that a true monotheistic religion exists.

It doesn't, unless you want to take the no-true-Scotsman route. It's more of a maybe-we-should-reformulate-this-discussion sort of thought on my part.

[Darth Wong]

No, the part where I thought that I made it clear that it depends on the numbers of Catholics doing such. Stating that it's "common practice" isn't exactly quantitative.

Well, the shrine in Blanco Texas alone claims hundreds of thousands of visitors per year, and they quite openly "anoint" people with the supposedly holy "tears" of the shrine. And that's just one shrine in Texas, which is nowhere near as crazed as anything in South America. You can go on pretending that this is just some insignificant portion of Catholicism if you want, but I think you're just reluctant to admit reality here. Hell, look at the whole "holy water" thing. The Catholic Church has never been shy about claiming that its various artifacts actually possess some kind of supernatural power of their own.

[Howedar]

No, the part where I thought that I made it clear that it depends on the numbers of Catholics doing such. Stating that it's "common practice" isn't exactly quantitative.

Well, the shrine in Blanco Texas alone claims hundreds of thousands of visitors per year, and they quite openly "anoint" people with the supposedly holy "tears" of the shrine.

The what? I've never heard of such a thing, and googling "blanco texas catholic" turned up nothing in the first two pages. Could you perhaps provide some link to information about this place?

And that's just one shrine in Texas, which is nowhere near as crazed as anything in South America. You can go on pretending that this is just some insignificant portion of Catholicism if you want, but I think you're just reluctant to admit reality here. Hell, look at the whole "holy water" thing. The Catholic Church has never been shy about claiming that its various artifacts actually possess some kind of supernatural power of their own.

Mike, please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

[Darth Wong]

The what? I've never heard of such a thing, and googling "blanco texas catholic" turned up nothing in the first two pages. Could you perhaps provide some link to information about this place?

Admittedly, I was going from memory, and it's possible that I've gotten the names wrong. But I did find one where an actual Catholic Bishop actually certified the magical powers of a statue, so it's not just the yokels. And it seems to me like you're just stalling for time; hundreds of these "miraculous Virgin Mary" apparitions are reported to the church every year; remember the humidity stain in the Mexico City subway tunnel? It is, like it or not, very common to believe that these images have some special power, enough so that people make pilgrimages to them. Hell, the Pope himself honoured some of these supposedly holy apparitions, such as Our Lady of Guadalupe. Why honour a particular depiction of the Virgin Mary as if it is intrinsically holy?

Mike, please stop trying to put words in my mouth.

Then why don't you clarify exactly what you think is required in order to meet your criteria?

[Howedar]

Admittedly, I was going from memory, and it's possible that I've gotten the names wrong. But I did find one where an actual Catholic Bishop actually certified the magical powers of a statue, so it's not just the yokels. And it seems to me like you're just stalling for time; hundreds of these "miraculous Virgin Mary" apparitions are reported to the church every year; remember the humidity stain in the Mexico City subway tunnel?

There are something like a billion Catholics in the world. I do not find a few hundred claims per billion people per year to be inherenly compelling.

It is, like it or not, very common to believe that these images have some special power, enough so that people make pilgrimages to them.

Again with the word "common"! How many people, Mike?

I'm seriously asking, I don't know.

Hell, the Pope himself honoured some of these supposedly holy apparitions, such as Our Lady of Guadalupe. Why honour a particular depiction of the Virgin Mary as if it is intrinsically holy?

I don't know. I don't see an ironclad logical progression from honoring something to worshiping it as a god.

Then why don't you clarify exactly what you think is required in order to meet your criteria?

Sure, I can do that. How about, oh, one in every twenty Catholics making some documentable act of devotion to something other than God/Jesus/Holy Spirit (doctrinally one being, I don't want to get into that mess) every year?

I'm flexible, does that seem like a reasonable criterion to you? One in twenty, to claim some characteristic of the group as a whole?