Thoughts on religion and atheism.

[Tolya]

I had a quite humorous talk at my local hairdresser where I cut my hair.

Now, there is this female hairdresser that I go to for many many years. She is a nice girl with a truly ingenious hands for any form of hair styling.

So, Im sitting in the chair with her doing some finishing touches (nothing fancy, I just needed to get my hair cut. By half.) and the conversation turns into me admitting Im an atheist. She looks at me quite surprised and then says (roughly):

Her: - Well, you know, I actually think that even atheists believe in some higher divinity, some unknown energy

Me: - Ummm, no.

Her: - Really? So you believe there is nothing out there?

Me: - Well, that's why I call myself an atheist.

Her: - But surely you must believe in something!

Me: - Nope. Zilch. Nada. Unless it can be proven.

Her: - But what happens when you die?

Me: - Well, we die...and there's nothing. We simply die.

Her: - But isn't it easier to live when you believe that you go somewhere?

Me: - Where? Like Hell? Because thats where most of us are going according to Christian religion.

Her: - Well, there's always heaven...

Me: - I doubt that anyone can really fullfil the requirments.

Her: - And there is this faith that there is a merciful, good God watching over us.

Me: - To tell you the truth, I don't think that the christian God is merciful.

Her: - *surprised* why do you think so?

Me: - I read the Bible.

Her: - Oh well, but when we meet somewhere in the afterworld I will walk up to you and say "I told you!"

I ended the conversation at that point because I actually like her and didn't want to have some kind of argument. So I forced myself not to roll my eyes and say "yeah, right".

Funny thing is how little people know about religion, other approaches to stuff like that. It's not like she is stupid, I actually consider her to be quite intelligent and if she was introduced to the arguments I think she could even become an atheist herself.

It's like people believe in a flying teapot because of the ideological momentum they were given as a kid. And every day it surprises me how strong this momentum is. I remember myself that it I was really shocked after reading DW's website and it took several weeks until I got used to the idea that God is a load of bs. Im still having these irrational thoughts that someone is watching over me and is not happy at all when I declare myself an atheist. Part of my upbringing I guess.

Just some thoughts from today I thought I'd share.

[PeZook]

It's like people believe in a flying teapot because of the ideological momentum they were given as a kid. And every day it surprises me how strong this momentum is.

Why is it shocking,exactly? Culture is an extremely powerful force. Try going through your day, watching what you do at every moment and think how many things are done this way because it's tradition, was always like that or because some systems were built upon older ones?

I think you'll be surprised at the results.

[Tolya]

It's like people believe in a flying teapot because of the ideological momentum they were given as a kid. And every day it surprises me how strong this momentum is.

Why is it shocking,exactly? Culture is an extremely powerful force. Try going through your day, watching what you do at every moment and think how many things are done this way because it's tradition, was always like that or because some systems were built upon older ones?

I think you'll be surprised at the results.

I am aware of that. But despite that awareness it still raises an eyebrow. People rely on patterns very heavily and seldom like to stray away from 'teh way it is done'.

[Cos Dashit]

They do call it "blind faith" for a reason.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Her: - Oh well, but when we meet somewhere in the afterworld I will walk up to you and say "I told you!"

I ended the conversation at that point because I actually like her and didn't want to have some kind of argument. So I forced myself not to roll my eyes and say "yeah, right".

Why wouldn't you call her on this? I understand that you like her, but if she's your friend, there's a certain amount of respect that's kind of expected there. Under any other situation, backhandedly calling a friend a dipshit is a genuine cause for offense, why should the topic of religion get a free pass?

I'm not saying start an argument with her, but at least let her know that being snidely told that your worldview is stupid and wrong (by a friend), without any just cause, is rather disrespectful.

[Darth Wong]

What drives me nuts about religious people is how I can show them that the exact same logic they use for the existence of God was used by Bush to justify the Iraq War, ie- "I can't prove [God/Iraqi WMD] exists but you can't prove it does not exist".

Many of the religious people I know are strongly against the war, and many of them even see the problem with Bush's logic, yet they turn around and use the very same "you can't prove it doesn't exist" logic for their religion and they honestly can't seem to see the contradiction.

[Dooey Jo]

Why wouldn't you call her on this? I understand that you like her, but if she's your friend, there's a certain amount of respect that's kind of expected there. Under any other situation, backhandedly calling a friend a dipshit is a genuine cause for offense, why should the topic of religion get a free pass?

It sounded like she was being friendly there, more than anything. Compared to fundies and the likes, that's actually quite a sweet thing of her to say. Calling her on it might well lead to a very awkward situation, I don't think that's worth risking over what was probably a light-hearted joke.

[Tolya]

Why wouldn't you call her on this? I understand that you like her, but if she's your friend, there's a certain amount of respect that's kind of expected there. Under any other situation, backhandedly calling a friend a dipshit is a genuine cause for offense, why should the topic of religion get a free pass?

It sounded like she was being friendly there, more than anything. Compared to fundies and the likes, that's actually quite a sweet thing of her to say. Calling her on it might well lead to a very awkward situation, I don't think that's worth risking over what was probably a light-hearted joke.

Exactly, that's how I understood it back then. That's why I never commented. Just because Im an atheist and have a different worldview than others does not grant me the right to be outright rude. I mean, if she were a priest, then I would think about it, but she is a friendly hairdresser I visit every month for a few years now.

And I wouldn't call her a friend.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Why wouldn't you call her on this? I understand that you like her, but if she's your friend, there's a certain amount of respect that's kind of expected there. Under any other situation, backhandedly calling a friend a dipshit is a genuine cause for offense, why should the topic of religion get a free pass?

It sounded like she was being friendly there, more than anything. Compared to fundies and the likes, that's actually quite a sweet thing of her to say. Calling her on it might well lead to a very awkward situation, I don't think that's worth risking over what was probably a light-hearted joke.

I suppose. Maybe it's just me, but it seems that using the whole, 'Oh yeah, well you'll see in the afterlife!' line, even if made in friendly ignorance, is the equivalent, in terms of disrespect, as calling a black person a 'nigger'. Even if it's made out of complete ignorance (maybe all your education about black people came from the media, and so, you tried calling them by what you heard on the radio/saw on TV), the responsible thing to do is at least informed the person who said it that it's a rather disrespectful thing to say, in general, and explain why.

I just don't see why religion gets a free pass from being called out when it's offensive through ignorance.

[Brain_Caster]

Personally I would not have been insulted by someone saying that to me (well, unless he/she said it in an condescending tone). They have their beliefs and I have mine, and an disagreement on that field is only a problem if one party refuses to admit that we're talking about beliefs and not knowledge.

Sure, theirs' might be irrational, but why should I care? From what I've read here it seems like she's a fairly reasonable individual who takes a little comfort in the unlikely but not completely impossible possibility that there is "something out there" and it's well meaning towards us humans.

I don't see a problem with that. People like that don't make political decisions for religious reasons, treat other badly because they're sinners, or other such shit that makes me dislike religion. They're not the ones we have to speak up against.

[R. U. Serious]

I suppose. Maybe it's just me, but it seems that using the whole, 'Oh yeah, well you'll see in the afterlife!' line, even if made in friendly ignorance, is the equivalent, in terms of disrespect, as calling a black person a 'nigger'.

Yes, I think it's just you. The girls said they would *meet* in the afterlife - how could that possibly be offensive? I mean I sort of could understand that some people might feel offended if they were told "you'll go to hell, and people like me will go to heaven", I could understand (thouh not share) that position. But feeling offended because somebody says they will meet the other person in the afterlife? I don't get it.

[Darth Wong]

It's not really "offensive" the way a racial epithet is, but it's smug and annoying. Basically, when someone says that in a conversation about the validity of the entire afterlife belief, he's basically saying "You know what? I'm right, you're wrong, nyaa nyaa nyaa." And without presenting a shred of evidence other than his say-so.

[Rye]

I think it can vary a lot, I don't think she was being smug, she just really wants it to be true. I would certainly prefer it if they were right and I was wrong and everyone meets up in an afterlife. Presumably it would be better than oblivion.

[Darth Wong]

I think it can vary a lot, I don't think she was being smug, she just really wants it to be true.

I would agree if it was a conversation about any other subject. But if you're arguing with someone about whether there's an afterlife and he ends it by saying "Oh well, I'll see you in the afterlife", that's smug.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

It's not really "offensive" the way a racial epithet is, but it's smug and annoying. Basically, when someone says that in a conversation about the validity of the entire afterlife belief, he's basically saying "You know what? I'm right, you're wrong, nyaa nyaa nyaa." And without presenting a shred of evidence other than his say-so.

Yeah, a lot more accurate than my attempt at a comparison.

I still fail to see why it's apparently bad to take umbrage when someone says something like that to you.

If it's a friend who says it, the mature thing to do is let them know that that's a smarmy remark to make.

If it's someone you just see regularly, and are having a religious conversation with, and they know your beliefs, or lack thereof (as in the OP), the least you could do, if not for yourself, then for other people she meets down the road, is let her know that such a catagorical dismissal of someone else's beliefs can justifiably be seen as smug and rude, even if that's not the intent.

[Brain_Caster]

It's not really "offensive" the way a racial epithet is, but it's smug and annoying. Basically, when someone says that in a conversation about the validity of the entire afterlife belief, he's basically saying "You know what? I'm right, you're wrong, nyaa nyaa nyaa." And without presenting a shred of evidence other than his say-so..

If it had been some kind of formal debate I'd absolutely agree with you. Saying something like that would be a dishonest way to cover up that you don't actually have any argument. But in a simple conversation I wouldn't be offended by it.

[CaptJodan]

It's not really "offensive" the way a racial epithet is, but it's smug and annoying. Basically, when someone says that in a conversation about the validity of the entire afterlife belief, he's basically saying "You know what? I'm right, you're wrong, nyaa nyaa nyaa." And without presenting a shred of evidence other than his say-so.

I had this exact response from someone not long ago. "Well, when we're both in Hell (because he believes in God and is a YEC, but finds God's little game on Earth sickening so believes he's going to Hell for hating God) I'll tell you I told you so." Our conversation ended there as well. Not so much because I couldn't retort, but that it would have been pointless to do so. When they reach that stage, they are beyond any kind of reason.

[Admiral Valdemar]

You'd call a girl out on her irrational religion when she's got you pinned to a chair with scissors in hand?

No thanks, I'm not about to be the first victim of Mrs. Sweeney Todd.

I'll wait until afterwards and if I have a back-up barber in my contact list, just in case.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

You'd call a girl out on her irrational religion when she's got you pinned to a chair with scissors in hand?

No thanks, I'm not about to be the first victim of Mrs. Sweeney Todd.

I'll wait until afterwards and if I have a back-up barber in my contact list, just in case.

Alright, you've got a good point there. ...and as attractive as being pinned to a chair by a girl with scissors in her hand sounds, I'll admit that giving the impression that I'm disagreeing with her would be the furthest thing from my mind.

[Tolya]

It's not really "offensive" the way a racial epithet is, but it's smug and annoying. Basically, when someone says that in a conversation about the validity of the entire afterlife belief, he's basically saying "You know what? I'm right, you're wrong, nyaa nyaa nyaa." And without presenting a shred of evidence other than his say-so.

I didn't really detect any smugness in her voice when she said that. But as my SO said some time ago, Im not the best at detecting subtle cues in female communication. If she was really smug I don't think that was entirely intentional (not that it makes much of a difference) but she was trying to end the subject with a joke and at the same time to reassure herself.

The scissors argument is one that I would like to use very much, but honestly I didn't think of that back then.

*SLAPS FOREHEAD*

Okay, I know where I made a mistake. It took a close re-reading of the OP

Her: - Oh well, but when we meet somewhere in the afterworld I will walk up to you and say "I told you!"

The word in bold should have been "IF". That's why the comment didn't hit me as smug, but rather she was reassuring herself that there is some validity left in her beliefs.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Her: - Oh well, but when we meet somewhere in the afterworld I will walk up to you and say "I told you!"

The word in bold should have been "IF". That's why the comment didn't hit me as smug, but rather she was reassuring herself that there is some validity left in her beliefs.

Oh, well that does change things quite a lot. It moves it from a smug certainty that she's right, in spite of contradictory evidence, to a "Yeah, well *if* I'm right, I'll have the last-laugh" sort of statement...which really isn't all that bothersome.

[Tolya]

Ahh, the small linguistic quirks...gotta love'em. Sorry for the confusion

[Gustav32Vasa]

So she think she will go to hell too? Or does she think that Atheists go to heaven?

[wolveraptor]

So she think she will go to hell too? Or does she think that Atheists go to heaven?

She probably thinks good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell. She's not going to call her client a damned soul to his face, and probably isn't vindictive enough to do that to anyone undeserving of it anyways, so she implied he'd go to heaven like her. Very few Christians truly stick to that whole "salvation comes through Christ alone" business.

[Darth Wong]

So she think she will go to hell too? Or does she think that Atheists go to heaven?

Fundies think that only Christians (and often only their particular brand of Christians) will go to Heaven. So-called "moderates" tend to believe that any basically good person will go to Heaven. A lot of Christians also believe that anybody who believes in any religion will go to Heaven, so atheists are fucked.

You really get an idea of how much Christianity is a vendetta religion when you listen to Christians talking about Hell, though.