Disgruntled former Starfleet officer

[MagnusTheReD]

You don't really need a tracer to see where you are shooting - you can see it hitting the ground (unless it is massively misaligned, but even then, shooting around the target a bit will let you figure out where it shoots relatively quickly).

Also if its misaligned, you only have to figure out the new point to aim with once - it does not wander around while you're just lying on the ground and shooting.

Haven't heard of the tracer thing, but then I have never seen a tracer round for my G-36.
For the MG-3 we of course had tracer rounds, but we (as in tank drivers) don't really care about overheating ("Who cares if the MG is burning, just fucking shoot!") or damaging the barrel.
Also AFAIK the trajectory is different - not massively so, but there is a reason you have tracers on an MG and not with your normal rifle.

Well, you won't see the hits if it's very far away and at night...
Lets just agree that with tracers you'll figure out the correct trajectory much faster than without.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but in IDF, we (and by "we" I mean our troops, not actually me) put tracers in MG belts with intervals of 40-50 rounds, so you'll know how many bullets you've already used and how many are left.

[PayBack]

TBH I wouldn't think tracers would help much in an assault rifle. Yes they use them in MGs as they can correct their aim while using sustained fire.
With an assault rifle by the time you've corrected your aim based on tracer rounds you're already shooting holes in the roof.

It would be much easier to shoot and compare the impact point to where you aimed, rather than try and estimate the degree of variance based on the path the tracer round took.

[PeZook]

Another option is to make every second bullet in the magazine a tracing bullet. This way you'll always know where shots hit.
The problem is that I heard that tracing bullets produce significantly more heat when ignited- thus too many tracers in a row might damage the barrel.
Is this true?

I don't know about the heat, but their ballistics are slightly different, plus they give away your position. While I wouldn't be much concerned about the enemy in ST shooting you, one of them might still get lucky.

It would be simpler to just shoot your weapon a few times when you get there and adjust the sights. What's the problem?

[Darth Wong]

I wouldn't think it's a big deal to adjust the sights if you have some idea of what you're doing. It just seemed from one of the earlier posts that you could just hand a bunch of raw recruits their rifles and have them shooting targets at 200m straight away, and that really makes it sound too easy.

[PayBack]

No, especially considering the huge number of people who think bullets go in a straight line and don't think about little things like gravity.

[MagnusTheReD]

I wouldn't think it's a big deal to adjust the sights if you have some idea of what you're doing.

Well, I know how to adjust sights, I just never done it, certainly not in real combat situation, so tracers really sounded like a good idea at the time...

It just seemed from one of the earlier posts that you could just hand a bunch of raw recruits their rifles and have them shooting targets at 200m straight away, and that really makes it sound too easy.

No, no, the idea is to hand them machine guns!
After a couple of hours, spare barrels, and several thousand bullets they should be skilled enough to spray Klingons at ranges exceeding 200 meters.

[D.Turtle]

I wouldn't think it's a big deal to adjust the sights if you have some idea of what you're doing. It just seemed from one of the earlier posts that you could just hand a bunch of raw recruits their rifles and have them shooting targets at 200m straight away, and that really makes it sound too easy.

In my experience it is almost that easy.

This is of course not in a combat situation, but on the shooting range or simulator.

[FOG3]

Whoa, silencers slow down projectiles. It wouldn't be on the M4, but I'd have it as an option. THe M4 would be for long-range fighting, and the SMG for close quarters.

Huh? Since when does the glorified muffler aka a suppressor actually slow down the bullet a significant amount. For that matter, why would you even want it too, especially with something like a M4?


Honestly if you're not an idiot you'd be Death incarnate on Trek forces with just:
A bolt action Scout Rifle
A backup pistol
A good utility knife

AND if you insist on being foolish and doing close quarters your choice of either a:
Shotgun, SMG, or PDW.


If you want to do stupid, you could always make a suit of Jin-Roh style armor out of packing crates, get a SAW with belts of ammo in a drum on your back, and just hose away.

[Darth Wong]

A silencer would be useless if it didn't slow down the bullet in this case, because if it's supersonic, you're going to get the supersonic "crack" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier in flight.

[PeZook]

A silencer would be useless if it didn't slow down the bullet in this case, because if it's supersonic, you're going to get the supersonic "crack" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier in flight.

A supressor for the M4 (yeah, they do exist) is mostly useful for hiding the muzzle flash, I think. It does slow the bullet down a bit, but for the carbine to be truly silent, you'd need special subsonic ammo.

[PayBack]

Some suppressors do slow pistol and SMG rounds by bleeding off the propellant gas early and AFAIK this is how the MP5 SD works and thus doesn't require subsonic ammo to start with.

With 5.56 carbines like the M4 the problem with that is that apart from the fact the barrels are rifled with a twist expecting the bullets to come out at a certain speed (and if slowed the rounds are not as stable) there's also the fact that small rounds like 5.56 rely a lot on their velocity for their effectiveness so slowing them down isn't usually a good idea which is why they came up with whisper rounds that are already subsonic but heavier than normal (though I don't know if they come in smaller than 7.62).

Suppressing supersonic ammo is sometimes better than nothing though because it does stop the loudest noise (the gas expanding and cooling from the muzzle) which is also the most likely to give away the shooter, and because apparently humans have a hard time determining the location and direction the crack of supersonic ammo. So they'll know some one's shooting, but be unlikely to know from where (though in the hallway of a spaceship I guess you're screwed )

[Darth Wong]

Given the existence of tricorders in ST, if you're hiding in the trees and you take a shot at someone, they don't need to locate you with their ears. The mere fact that they can hear the round at all is enough to give your location away, because they'll immediately sweep the area for human life signs.

[PayBack]

True, which is why in my weapon selection previously, only the pistol is suppressed for times when you don't want anyone knowing a lone individual has been shot at all (lone sentry type scenario). However the discussion had kind of gone off on a tangent as did I.

[MagnusTheReD]

(though I don't know if they come in smaller than 7.62).

Here's a page for Russian subsonic pistol ammunition- you tell me if those are smaller then 7.62, because there are some references for 7.62x38 cartridges on it, and I guess you were talking about the rifle sized x45 and bigger, so...

Given the existence of tricorders in ST, if you're hiding in the trees and you take a shot at someone, they don't need to locate you with their ears. The mere fact that they can hear the round at all is enough to give your location away, because they'll immediately sweep the area for human life signs.

This is probably the only thing in the whole ST universe that is likely to stop us from massacring their ground forces.

That's why we should counter it with a good night vision scope/goggles and/or an infrared binoculars.
We would probably get the best results from mounting the nightvision scope on a good sniper rifle (I prefer a semi-auto one, like the G3 clone I mentioned before), and the infrared camera on a machinegun.

This way we could snipe Klingons at night before they see us, and once they'll get the drop on us, spay them with hot brass and use infrared to see when they pop out from their cover.

Yeah, I like this scenario. I think this might give us the most kills!

[Batman]

Some suppressors do slow pistol and SMG rounds by bleeding off the propellant gas early and AFAIK this is how the MP5 SD works and thus doesn't require subsonic ammo to start with.

Correct about the MP5SD, wrong WRT screw-on silencers. They CAN'T bleed of propellant gas early on account of the bullet not entering the silencer until leaving the barrel.

With 5.56 carbines like the M4 the problem with that is that apart from the fact the barrels are rifled with a twist expecting the bullets to come out at a certain speed

which it does. Again, the silencer doesn't engage until after the bullet has left the barrel and has achieved its proper spin.

(and if slowed the rounds are not as stable)

The slowing by a screw-on silencer isn't going to be much.

so slowing them down isn't usually a good idea which is why they came up with whisper rounds that are already subsonic but heavier than normal (though I don't know if they come in smaller than 7.62).

I'm not sure they make sense in 7.62 to begin with. If you slow it down this much it loses most of the advantages it has over larger, slower rounds like 9mm and up.

[Stark]

And even the SD6 etc are *better* with subsonic. The SD6 silencer also requires maintenance, unlike many standard 'addon' silencers. I also remember hearing that full-power ammo through many suppressors will destroy their internals in a few shots.

[Batman]

And even the SD6 etc are *better* with subsonic.

Better as in? Slowing down a subsonic round even more is hardly going to improve its performance.

The SD6 silencer also requires maintenance,

As does every other part of a firearm.

unlike many standard 'addon' silencers.

Which you simply throw away after a limited number of rounds. IIRC the service lifetime of the MP5SD integral silencer is 10,000 rounds.

I also remember hearing that full-power ammo through many suppressors will destroy their internals in a few shots.

That seems to destroy them REGARDLESS wether you use subsonic or full-power.

[PayBack]

(though I don't know if they come in smaller than 7.62).

Here's a page for Russian subsonic pistol ammunition- you tell me if those are smaller then 7.62, because there are some references for 7.62x38 cartridges on it, and I guess you were talking about the rifle sized x45 and bigger, so...

No I'm not talking about subsonic ammo, that comes in nearly every calibre. I'm talking about Whisper rounds

Correct about the MP5SD, wrong WRT screw-on silencers. They CAN'T bleed of propellant gas early on account of the bullet not entering the silencer until leaving the barrel.

I never meant to imply that screw on suppressors do bleed propellant gas off early. Obviously the only way they could do that is if the barrel had been modified and it someone also covered part of the barrel.

As to the point of Whisper rounds, they supposedly are a lot heavier than standard rounds but barely subsonic. The extra weight meaning they supposedly lose less energy over a given distance and have more than a lighter round would when it hits at the slower speed.

[Stark]

And even the SD6 etc are *better* with subsonic.

Better as in? Slowing down a subsonic round even more is hardly going to improve its performance.

MORE SILENT, dumbass. Most silencers can't properly suppress full-power ammunition, and with subsonic rounds they only have to deal with muzzle gasses. Stop being a nitpicking wanker.

The SD6 silencer also requires maintenance,

As does every other part of a firearm.

Yeah, the kind of maintenance you have to send it back to HK for. Uh... huh.

unlike many standard 'addon' silencers.

Which you simply throw away after a limited number of rounds. IIRC the service lifetime of the MP5SD integral silencer is 10,000 rounds.

Yeah, and 10k totally compares to regular 500-rnd suppressed or five-round full power, right? No.

I also remember hearing that full-power ammo through many suppressors will destroy their internals in a few shots.

That seems to destroy them REGARDLESS wether you use subsonic or full-power.

OH SIGH. I know you're a boring irritating git, but do try to keep up. I mean it DESTROYS them IN A FEW SHOTS, you ridiculous moron, instead of wearing them out. Your response makes no sense and is stupid. Really, silencers have wear? I clearly do not know that, and certainly didn't make a fucking point about it that you're responding to!

[MagnusTheReD]

(though I don't know if they come in smaller than 7.62).

Here's a page for Russian subsonic pistol ammunition- you tell me if those are smaller then 7.62, because there are some references for 7.62x38 cartridges on it, and I guess you were talking about the rifle sized x45 and bigger, so...

No I'm not talking about subsonic ammo, that comes in nearly every calibre. I'm talking about Whisper rounds

No idea what that is...
Got any links?

[PayBack]

http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/index.html

[Darkwyng]

Basically, ladies and gentleman, a 3-, 4-, or 5-man team, armed with some of our best modern weapons, would walk through and ENTIRE starship crew, including security. Battlestar Galatica's Marines would eat Starfleet for a snack.

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

[Elheru Aran]

Basically, ladies and gentleman, a 3-, 4-, or 5-man team, armed with some of our best modern weapons, would walk through and ENTIRE starship crew, including security. Battlestar Galatica's Marines would eat Starfleet for a snack.

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

In universe: ????? Peacenik elements in the Federation didn't like the developing militarism of Starfleet (visible throughout the TOS films) and decided to quell that by stringently regulating Starfleet and essentially turning it into a fleet of scientists?

Out of universe: TNG came before ENT, and suffered the Roddenberry Curse full blast as a result...

[Kamakazie Sith]

If I was suddenly transported to the St universe via The Matrix, here's my equipment:

M4A1 Assault Rifle (with silencer and M203 launcher)
MP5N Sub-machien Gun
Sig Sauer P220 Pistol
Body Armor
LIGHTSABER!

Initially, I was going to nitpick your choice of a lightsaber, but then I thought it makes a hell of a substitute for a combat knife...though not as user friendly.

[Darth Wong]

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

Watch "Peak Performance" and listen to what Riker and Picard have to say about the role of Starfleet and the importance of tactical training exercises.