Disgruntled former Starfleet officer

[Darth Wong]

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

Watch "Peak Performance" and listen to what Riker and Picard have to say about the role of Starfleet and the importance of tactical training exercises.

[Kamakazie Sith]

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

Watch "Peak Performance" and listen to what Riker and Picard have to say about the role of Starfleet and the importance of tactical training exercises.

It does seem as though that is a principle which is losing its popularity in the Federation around DS9, and later...

Though they still have a lot of work to do with their weapons...

[Darkwyng]

In universe: ????? Peacenik elements in the Federation didn't like the developing militarism of Starfleet (visible throughout the TOS films) and decided to quell that by stringently regulating Starfleet and essentially turning it into a fleet of scientists?

Out of universe: TNG came before ENT, and suffered the Roddenberry Curse full blast as a result...

LMAO... nice one. Plus, if I may quote Mr. Wong, "[Starfleet] gives out ranks like candy". Like Janeway, TOTAL TACTIAL IDIOT, but when she comes back from her 7+years too long trip, she's promoted to what we Americans would call a VICE ADMIRAL! (I believe she had three square pips. If she had two, she would be a Rear Admiral Upper Half.) How the fuck does she go from a Captian to an Admiral?

Small FYI: In the US, it takes an act of the US Congress (Both Senate and House of Representatives) to promote someone fo a rank of O-6 or higher. (O-6 being a Colonel in the Army, Marine Corps, and Air Force, and a Captain in the Coast Guard and Navy, for those in the cheap seats.)

[Darth Wong]

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

Watch "Peak Performance" and listen to what Riker and Picard have to say about the role of Starfleet and the importance of tactical training exercises.

It does seem as though that is a principle which is losing its popularity in the Federation around DS9, and later...

Didn't Janeway spout the same kind of bullshit about how Starfleet is a non-military organization?

[Kamakazie Sith]

LMAO... nice one. Plus, if I may quote Mr. Wong, "[Starfleet] gives out ranks like candy". Like Janeway, TOTAL TACTIAL IDIOT, but when she comes back from her 7+years too long trip, she's promoted to what we Americans would call a VICE ADMIRAL! (I believe she had three square pips. If she had two, she would be a Rear Admiral Upper Half.) How the fuck does she go from a Captian to an Admiral?

Business? She brought back a lot of interesting technology for Starfleet. Maybe she made a few deals...

Small FYI: In the US, it takes an act of the US Congress (Both Senate and House of Representatives) to promote someone fo a rank of O-6 or higher. (O-6 being a Colonel in the Army, Marine Corps, and Air Force, and a Captain in the Coast Guard and Navy, for those in the cheap seats.)

Yes, but that doesn't mean they earned it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Didn't Janeway spout the same kind of bullshit about how Starfleet is a non-military organization?

Probably, but Janeway left before the Dominion War.

[Darkwyng]

LMAO... nice one. Plus, if I may quote Mr. Wong, "[Starfleet] gives out ranks like candy". Like Janeway, TOTAL TACTIAL IDIOT, but when she comes back from her 7+years too long trip, she's promoted to what we Americans would call a VICE ADMIRAL! (I believe she had three square pips. If she had two, she would be a Rear Admiral Upper Half.) How the fuck does she go from a Captian to an Admiral?

Business? She brought back a lot of interesting technology for Starfleet. Maybe she made a few deals...

Small FYI: In the US, it takes an act of the US Congress (Both Senate and House of Representatives) to promote someone fo a rank of O-6 or higher. (O-6 being a Colonel in the Army, Marine Corps, and Air Force, and a Captain in the Coast Guard and Navy, for those in the cheap seats.)

Yes, but that doesn't mean they earned it.

True, but at the same time they investigate each candidate heavily, hence why some promotions take a long time. But in Star Trek, you do something totally amazing in their eyes, they'll promote you into command of a ship for a reward. Whatever happened to medals or commendations?

[Stark]

What medals?

[Batman]

And even the SD6 etc are *better* with subsonic.

Better as in? Slowing down a subsonic round even more is hardly going to improve its performance.

MORE SILENT, dumbass. Most silencers can't properly suppress full-power ammunition, and with subsonic rounds they only have to deal with muzzle gasses. Stop being a nitpicking wanker.

they only have to deal with muzzle gasses anyway. Are you sure you know how firearms work?

The SD6 silencer also requires maintenance,

As does every other part of a firearm.

Yeah, the kind of maintenance you have to send it back to HK for. Uh... huh.

As evidenced by?

unlike many standard 'addon' silencers.

Which you simply throw away after a limited number of rounds. IIRC the service lifetime of the MP5SD integral silencer is 10,000 rounds.

Yeah, and 10k totally compares to regular 500-rnd suppressed or five-round full power, right? No.

I note a complete and utter lack of supporting evidence.

I also remember hearing that full-power ammo through many suppressors will destroy their internals in a few shots.

That seems to destroy them REGARDLESS wether you use subsonic or full-power.

OH SIGH. I know you're a boring irritating git, but do try to keep up. I mean it DESTROYS them IN A FEW SHOTS, you ridiculous moron, instead of wearing them out. Your response makes no sense and is stupid. Really, silencers have wear? I clearly do not know that, and certainly didn't make a fucking point about it that you're responding to!

I'll let the rest of the board draw their own conclusions.

[Darkwyng]

What medals?

LMFAO... "X" gets the square and the win for that one.

[Kamakazie Sith]

True, but at the same time they investigate each candidate heavily, hence why some promotions take a long time. But in Star Trek, you do something totally amazing in their eyes, they'll promote you into command of a ship for a reward. Whatever happened to medals or commendations?

Well, look at what Janeway did do.

She brought back valuable information, and very valuable technology.(Not including the future tech)

However, the biggest accomplishment would be the near fatal damage she did to the borg, and then the damage caused to the borg transwarp network.

[Darth Wong]

Didn't Janeway spout the same kind of bullshit about how Starfleet is a non-military organization?

Probably, but Janeway left before the Dominion War.

Yes, but if we're talking about the writers and the direction they want to go in, that doesn't really matter. Voyager was Berman's baby, and Berman was apparently determined to continue Roddenberry's line of thinking.

It would be interesting to see what happens with some kind of new direction for the franchise, but the choice of a "Star Trek 90210" setup for the new film does not fill me with optimism.

[Darkwyng]

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

Watch "Peak Performance" and listen to what Riker and Picard have to say about the role of Starfleet and the importance of tactical training exercises.

*finds a synopsis of the episode and yelps in sheer horror* OMFG, exploratory and PARAmilitary organization and not an actual military?

Paramilitary (Definition brought to by Webster's Dictionary)- of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force <a paramilitary border patrol>

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yes, but if we're talking about the writers and the direction they want to go in, that doesn't really matter. Voyager was Berman's baby, and Berman was apparently determined to continue Roddenberry's line of thinking.

Sorry, I thought we were talking in-universe.

It would be interesting to see what happens with some kind of new direction for the franchise, but the choice of a "Star Trek 90210" setup for the new film does not fill me with optimism.

I have very little myself. If the Federation were an actor he would be type cast as a pacifist.

[Stark]

they only have to deal with muzzle gasses anyway. Are you sure you know how firearms work?

I hate you so much. You know internal pressures and stuff? Get this: they're higher with full-power ammo. Thus the suppressors have more to deal with. Hence, they work better with subsonic ammo. Or do you think suppressors have the same signature, regardless of loading? Answer me.

As evidenced by?

What are you TALKING about? The SD6 suppressor is described as not user-serviceable. It's not the same, maintenance wise, as the rest of the gun. Is this hard? From memory it uses aluminium baffles, which wear out hell fast and you can't just repair them, they need to be replaced.

Yeah, and 10k totally compares to regular 500-rnd suppressed or five-round full power, right? No.

I note a complete and utter lack of supporting evidence.

ME provide evidence? How about YOU provide evidence for your magic 10k round number, cocknuts. Oh wait, you still think the pressures involved are the same, that surpressors provide the same signature regardless of loading, and that baffle-type suppressors don't wear out faster with full-power ammo, right? You are a retard. My statement, that suppressors last longer and work better with subsonic ammunition, still stands.

OH SIGH. I know you're a boring irritating git, but do try to keep up. I mean it DESTROYS them IN A FEW SHOTS, you ridiculous moron, instead of wearing them out. Your response makes no sense and is stupid. Really, silencers have wear? I clearly do not know that, and certainly didn't make a fucking point about it that you're responding to!

I'll let the rest of the board draw their own conclusions.

That's so precious! Okay, let's all be honest - who thinks my post shows that I wasn't aware of suppressor wear or maintenance? Did I mention it at all? Was the preceeding sentence about such issues? Or is Batman a dumbass?

[Darth Servo]

As a Star Trek fan, I am honestly having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around why and how a badly designed military went from a force with some promise (a la the MACOs from ST:ENT) to just, well, pussy-whipped.

Watch "Peak Performance" and listen to what Riker and Picard have to say about the role of Starfleet and the importance of tactical training exercises.

*finds a synopsis of the episode and yelps in sheer horror* OMFG, exploratory and PARAmilitary organization and not an actual military?

Paramilitary (Definition brought to by Webster's Dictionary)- of, relating to, being, or characteristic of a force formed on a military pattern especially as a potential auxiliary military force <a paramilitary border patrol>

You need to see Mike's database entries on the episode. Supposedly Starfleets FIRST combat simulation (which is actually a falsehood). Picard and Riker bitching about combat being a minor part of a starship's duty. The combat simulation turns out to be utterly useless. Etc.

[Darkwyng]

*reads Wong's comments* And you know what's funny, I used to be in a PBeM Fleet, commanded my own ship, which by the way would whip a Sovereign-class ship's ass any day. After fighting with the Sim Managers on how I wanted to run my ship (as it was my understanding it was MY COMMAND), I was kicked out because I pestured them a lot on what I thought made sense or didn't make sense, mostly based on what I leaned here on the site.

They wanted to fun the fleet TNG style. Command style, origanization, all that jazz. If that was what they were looking for with all of their flaws and me trying to make things better for my crew, I am GLAD they kicked me out.

[MagnusTheReD]

http://www.quarterbore.com/300whisper/index.html

Aye, thanks.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Is it possible that Picards statement merely meant that their destination was where the very first Simulation took place and it was used regularly for simulations at the time?

[Imperial Overlord]

What medals?

Only naughty TOS and DS9 people get medals. TNG is above such things, have done away with such things when they got rid of money.

[harbringer]

The main problem I see with using a silencer is how it degrades the range. And yes in some circumstances a light mortar (such as late model U.S. types) would be more useful than a 50 cal sniper rifle, however even a 60mm mortar will require an almost direct hit to achieve anything worth while. During WW2 the range for a silenced pistol (effective on a human target that is) was yards, if memory serves me right 5-15.

The british sniper in korea with the 50 cal was very VERY unpopular as they always subjected the area he last operated in with heavy mortar fire... after all a near miss still injured the target, and sometimes kills with 12mm and up.

You could carry two mini MP5's or ingrams if you want to just impress charging redshirts but my favourite would be the willie pete grenade. Carry as many as you can because if your in a ship that would clear a room. An RPG would kill any verhicle the feds deploy commonly possibly damage a shuttle can be reloaded and kill bunkers (a carl gustav can do this too but in the east block people occasionally made home made RPG ammo... not sure how safe it was ) A combat knife and rations a pack torch compass and maybe NVG's and gas mask if I want to use other grenades would round out the kit.

______________

The problem is starfleet have had a major decline in military preparedness. This could be budgetary (ie would rather please the plebs and give them stuff than pay for troops transports and training). It could be intelectual as star fleet degrade the importance of tactics and usually face only small threats or deployments - captains are less aggresive on the ground and let blockade and attrition win, leading to downgrading of ground troops. Lastly and not leastly it could be a mistake in concept similar to the missile fad of the 70's that led phantoms to posses missiles and no guns reducing endurance.

Compared to the empire the federation rely on shipping and naval assets to achieve goals and have no need of troops, the empire to brute force or ground sweeps to uncover hidden elements in a population both need skilled troops that are well equiped. The federation has no need of ground verhicles (as long as everyone plays by their rules) where as the empire need a variety of verhicles for differing enviroments and uses and thus must have a wide and large inventory.

just differing philosophies... I think the empire was better prepared (and hoth brought that out, why move if you have nothing to fear... they could have stayed on yavin) than the federation and would be more adaptable as they had more possibilites to begin with

[FOG3]

A silencer would be useless if it didn't slow down the bullet in this case, because if it's supersonic, you're going to get the supersonic "crack" of the bullet breaking the sound barrier in flight.

It's a bloody muffler, not Hollywood's mystic sound cancellation device. Maxim isn't even in the business anymore and there's better stuff out there then Maxim brand Silencer suppressors. Upgrade to the 21st Century, not the 20th. The point isn't to make it silent so much as it is quieter. If you _want to_ you can effectively make it "silent" in that the action will be louder then the muzzle retort, but you have to really go out of your way to make it truly silent. Otherwise it's just like the muffler on your car.

If you cut the velocity like that on that bullet you might as well be using a AR-7. Those bullets aren't big or heavy enough to be that much better then 22LR if you drop them below the sound barrier at the muzzle.

[FOG3]

What's with the obsessession with a 50 BMG AntiMaterial Rifle? You're going to haul a roughly _20 pound_ package with a couple of shots around and think you're hot stuff compared to a guy with him much lighter, more portable moded Remington 700 chambered in 7.62NATO with more rounds, better ability to do follow up shots, and allows more variety in hidey holes? It has its place, but I wonder if some people are recognizing what that place is and why.

[Bounty]

What medals?

LMFAO... "X" gets the square and the win for that one.

* Christopher Pike Medal of Valor
* Cochrane Medal of Excellence
* Grankite Order of Tactics
* Federation Citation of Honor
* Karagite Order of Heroism
* Palm Leaf of Axanar Peace Mission
* Prentares Ribbon of Commendation
* Starfleet Citation for Conspicuous Gallantry
* Starfleet Citation for Valor
* Starfleet Decoration for Gallantry
* Starfleet Extended Tour Ribbon
* Starfleet Decoration for Valor
* Starfleet Honor Roll
* Starfleet Legion of Honor
* Starfleet Medal of Commendation
* Starfleet Medal of Honor
* Starfleet Medal of Valor
* Starfleet Silver Palm
* Starfleet Star Cross
* Starfleet Surgeons Decoration
* Starfleet Wound Decoration

And that's just the canon Starfleet medals. Granted, many are from TOS and one is from a mirror universe, but it's still more then, well, zero.

And once again, there's no one unified treatment of the military in Trek writing. TNG pretended it didn't exist at first, Voyager makes a mockery of the basics, DS9 tried to inject some realism, ENT was all over the place from rampant naiveté to gung-ho militarism and everything inbetween by the time the series ended.

[Darkwyng]

I actually have a question for the panel...

If Star Trek went through the re-imagining process a la Battlestar Galactica, and Starfleet has a much better and more defined military, would fans young and old embrace it?