Proving BaldStar Wrong

[Miles Teg]

Well this is cute, I am about to insert myself into a flame war between a warsie and a trekkie.. I must be crazy!

Anyway, based on the facts, it seems clear that the E-D did make a sharp turn at warp speed (though there is no real indication of exactly what factor) The reasons are quite clear from both the plot and dialog, as well as Poe's own stills and animations:

Fact #1) The plot purpose of the saucer separation was to get the saucer far enough along toward Farpoint that it would be able to finish the trip to Farpoint in a reasonable amount of time on its own power, after it decelerated from warp. (I believe this was in the time frame of several minutes for the warp coasting, though I do not have access to the script and/or the episode itself. If someone knows what time period the dialog mentions, I'd like to know)

Fact #2) The separation occured at warp speed. This is amply discussed in the dialog of the episode.

Fact #3) The crew was worried about the warp separation because they feared it might destroy the ship.

Fact #4) No dialog ever mentions the drive section either dropping from warp or re-entering warp after the turn. The only mention of any acceleration (other than the turn itself) was a slight deceleration to allow for the actual separation of the two hulls.

Fact #5) Visual evidence clearly shows the drive section beginning its turn while in close proximity to the saucer section (within several ship lengths)

From the facts above, and reasonable person would have to conclude that the turn happened at warp. However, some of these facts might require some additional comments to explain their meaning to the less reasonable among us.

First of all, #1 is the most critical of the facts, because what goes on is basically what people are arguing about. If memory serves, the plan was to have the saucer section coast at warp for some useful amount of time to cover most of the distance to Farpoint. When it lost warp speed, it would continue at impulse the rest of the way. (In this way the saucer could still arrive at farpoint on time, or something like that)

The Warsies here seem to claim (in this thread) that the saucer section dropped out of warp within 1/15 of a second. This claim stems from trying to prove that the E-D did not execute a turn at high warp, and it completely senseless. Besides, the amount of time the saucer would remain at warp was explicitly stated in the episode (although I admit I don't know what that value is). But, since they want to argue, why not!

So, I ask, what would be the point of separating the saucer ar warp (at extreme risk!), if it would only stay at warp for 1/15th of a second (or for that matter anything remotely near that short a time)? Even futher, if the E-D would have to drop out of warp to turn around, and the dangerous separation would only save them 1/15 of a second anyway, why separate at warp and endanger the ship? Why not stay at warp for the extra 1/15th of a second, drop to a safe speed, separate, and then turn around and go back to warp.

Again, why do this risky separation if it did not save some useful amount of time? Clearly, and without question, the saucer was still at warp for some significant amount of time after the separation, at least enough time to justify possibly destroying the ship to attempt the dangerous separation.

To keep this as short as possible, here's the crux of the argument. Clearly, there was no point in separating at warp if the saucer did not sustain it's speed for a useful amount of time. Therefore, we must assume it stayed at warp longer. With this, and the fact that the stardrive executes its turn while in close proximity to the saucer (as seen in the lovely animated gif provided in other posts in this thread), it is clear that the E-D executed a turn at warp speed.

To address the point about the missing "warp-stars", there are several possibliities. The most obvious is, of course, a sloppy GFX person. Virtually every sci-fi television show is riddled with GFX errors, and Star Trek is no exception. In fact there a a lot of glaring errors, such as the phaser fire out of the torpedo tube in "Darmok". The other obvious example, from SW, is TIE and X-WING fighters performing in space as if they were in atmosphere. IMHO GFX should be taken for what they are, eye candy.

Besides, if you must rely on the small details of low bugdet, model photography to argue a point, espeically when logic and dialog provide ample evidence against your point, then obviously you don't have a point, and are only trolling, (and apparently I took the bait).


-The Bashar Miles Teg

[Master of Ossus]

Why was separating the saucer section placing anybody at risk? It is a standard SF maneuver, isn't it? And EVERY other time the ship separated in the show, it did so at warp. Clearly it is not very dangerous.

How is it possible that, if the ships were at warp, the saucer section took so long to get space between itself and the stardrive?

You are claiming an FX gaffe. That is not allowed. What we see is what we get.

[TheDarkling]

Miles Teg: You should have just poured gasoline on yourslef and lit a match.

Now the Saucer section does coast at warp - or is that disputed?
I dont wish to wade through the 99% of insults and shouting that Darkstars thread tend to provoke so could smoeone tell me if this point is contested.

Then the fact that the saucer doesnt get way ahead of the star drive when its doing its turn suggests they are both in the same speed range so the question becomes has the saucer dropped from warp or not?

[Miles Teg]

Master of Ossus:

<quote>
Why was separating the saucer section placing anybody at risk? It is a standard SF maneuver, isn't it? And EVERY other time the ship separated in the show, it did so at warp. Clearly it is not very dangerous.
</quote>

Watch the episode, the warp separation done in IAF was a first, and there was question as to rather or not the ship could handle it. Unfortunatly, I do not remember the exact text of the script, but I do know that there was some apparent danger to the ship, and that a warp separation was only possible "in theory". BTW: there are only three times (that I recall) when the ship actually separated in the show. The first was Farpoint, and the second, if I remember, used stock footage from IAF for the separation. However, the other time I recall is in "Best of Both Worlds" which I am positive happened whien the ship was not even at impulse, let alone warp.

<quote>
How is it possible that, if the ships were at warp, the saucer section took so long to get space between itself and the stardrive?
</quote>

It took a while because both hulls were traveling as NEARLY the same warp velocity. This seems like an obvious thing to me, I'm not sure how this could be hard to understand. Again, watch the episode, there is explicit dialog explaining that the separation was accomplishing by slowing the star drive very slightly to actually allow the saucer to separate before the star drive turned around.

<quote>
You are claiming an FX gaffe. That is not allowed. What we see is what we get.
</quote>

SFX gaffs and stupidity are prevelant, and as such SFX should cannot be relied upon, and should be dismissed when they do not agree with the dialog and/or plot as is the case here. SFX errors happen all the time, and "what we see" is not what we get. What wer HEAR and READ is what we get, as the rest is only eye candy, and serves only the purpose of aiding those with a lack of imagination.

By your statement you seem to be implying that most sci-fi universes have devoted resources to filling space with enough matter so that their ships actually make sound when travelling through space. I guess they really like swooshing sounds, becuase it must be d*mn expensive to pressurize the entire universe....


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TheDarkling:

<quote>

Then the fact that the saucer doesnt get way ahead of the star drive when its doing its turn suggests they are both in the same speed range so the question becomes has the saucer dropped from warp or not?

</quote>

Have you watched the episode? The purpose of the separation was to let the saucer coast most of the way to Farpoint, since impulse speeds would not allow it to get there in a reasonable time. So, to answer your question, yes, the saucer was at warp. There would be NO purpose of doing a warp separation otherwise.


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It seems like you both are arguing with a total lack of knowledge of the events of the episode. I suggest before you dig yourselves deeper you watch it, or at least get a detailed synopsis.

- Bashar Miles Teg

[The Yosemite Bear]

Darkstar thank you for helping to prove my Theorum that the Human Spiecies is not nessarily Sientient.

[Miles Teg]

IAF -> EAF == Encounter at Farpoint. Sorry about that

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

If you have that philosophy, it is technically a valid method - the literary style, in which intent and dialogue are important. Unfortunately, this is not the prevalent method in this discussion board.

In this discussion board, and the ASVS NG for your information, we are watching reality and analyzing it scientifically. As such, PLOT does not exist. After all, a plot does not exist in reality, unless you believe in fate. Canon Observations are of PARAMOUNT importance. Dialogue is subordinate, let alone the PLOT.

Example: X-Wings and TIE Fighters act like aerodynamic vehicles in space. We DON'T conclude the SFX is wrong. We conclude they DID act like aerodynamic vehicles, and we think of possible methods they can make the turn - say officially sanctioned thrust vectoring, or the officially sanctioned Warsobabble called an "etheric rudder."

If you are the kind of person that would conclude that the SFX is wrong, then you are in the wrong discussion board. I recommend SpaceBattles

[DarkStar]

As such, PLOT does not exist. After all, a plot does not exist in reality, unless you believe in fate.

I think you (and Wayne) misunderstand the concept involved when someone invokes the term "plot". The plot gives us the motivations of the characters and events they cause... it allows an understanding of what, without plot, would just be a dry FX sequence with no rhyme or reason.

It does not require that the lives of the characters are already written... though this is true when we watch a filmed episode. All we need to know about plot to examine an event is what was going on at that point.

The separation sequence, for instance, revolves around the effort to escape Q. They were not simply separating at random, or trying to show Q "hey, look what this ship can do".

Now, while I do agree with Miles that visual effects are, in the real world, just eye candy efforts to help the storytelling (or at least should be), I also recognize the nature of debate on this topic. I therefore accept, for our purposes, that the visuals are a valid source of precise information.

However, I do not accept the foolish notion that plot is irrelevant.

[oberon]

Hypothesis, not theory. Theory, not theorem. Theorem, not theorum.

[Miles Teg]

Kazuaki Shimazaki:

<quote>
In this discussion board, and the ASVS NG for your information, we are watching reality and analyzing it scientifically. As such, PLOT does not exist. After all, a plot does not exist in reality, unless you believe in fate. Canon Observations are of PARAMOUNT importance. Dialogue is subordinate, let alone the PLOT.
</quote

That has to be the most stupid way I have ever heard of to examine and argue about a television show or a movie, which without the plot are nothing but meaningless eye candy. Further, the dialog and plot are NOT subordinate to the visuals, the situation is quite the reverse. There is a reason the show starts as a script, not a visual effects piece.

You claim you are "watching reality" but that statement makes no sense what so ever. NONE of it is real, therefore you CANNOT be analyzing reality. Now if the movie was a fictional story wrapped around real life events, like say something similar to the movie "Pearl Harbor" but using real footage, THEN there would be a valid reason to ignore the plot and dialog.

Further, ignoring the plot and dialog is foolhardy, as the visuals are never continuous, and therefore the entire story is never there if plot and dialog are ignored. Trying to analyze an incomplete situation is bad "science", and can only lead to a falty analysis (which is clearly demonstrated by the warsies in this thread)..

According to your method, every sci-fi universe does very silly things, like pressurize space so they can have sound (I'd like poeple to techno babble their way out of that...), or devote resources to building space fighters that, instead of capitalizing on the advantages of space combat (relative stops, reverse movement, z axis movement, etc), try to simulate atmospheric flight. Wow, you have a LOT of explaining to do.

Consequently, if you insist on only looking only at visual evidence, then it is clear that both ST and SW ships travel at roughly the same speed, as the "warp/hyperspace-star" effect is very similar in both shows. If plot is only secondary to this, then it implies that the Star Wars galaxy is only a few hundred light years across, since their ships with similar speed can traverse the galaxy in a matter of hours. In short, you hath not a leg to stand on unless you are willing to accept this.

HOWEVER, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". This actually makes the argument easier, since the implication of explanations such as the dubious "etheric rudder." is that I can envoke any stupidity I want to explain poorly thought out FX. Here goes (ignoring plot alltogether):

Clearly, the separation begins at warp speed. Now, there is NEVER any visual indication that the ship ever drops out of warp. For example, there is no classic light burst (similar to when a ship enteres warp) or the "de-streching" effect so commonly seen throughout the run of TNG. This lack of visual evidence clearly demonstrates that the ship did not exit warp. Now, of course, the problem of the warp stars is there. Clearly, the GCS is equipped with a quantum photon path flux inhibitor which hides the disorienting effects of star patterns in flux during warp turns.

Silly, yes. Demonstrating a point, hopefully.

Of course, the easiest non-plot envolving explaination is this: The scene in question is without question shot from a nearly stationary view point (there appears to be a slight panning effect), which implies that the GCS is capable of VERY tight warp turns. The only time is is reasonable to see warp stars (although the concept of the warp-stars is laughable to begin with) is when the viewers point of view moves with the object at warp velocity, which is clearly not the case here.

In conclusion, any reasonable person would stop blindly arguing against one tiny aspect of one show (which implies, to me, a certain lack of confidence in their own show's superiority) when it is easily demonstratable, under any "philosophy", that they are wrong. But then again, reasonable people seem to be few and far between on boards such as this.

- Bashar Miles Teg

[TheDarkling]

Miles Teg: I have watched the episode and what I said was in fact aiding your argument because if the saucer is at warp then so if the stardrive section - thats the point I was making.

[oberon]

Careful with that z-axis, Eugene

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

I'm going to explain this once.

First paragraph: Let's leave whether it is stupid in abeyance for this paragraph. That's the way it WORKS.

Second paragraph: To be sure no one can arbitrarily decide what happened and what didn't, we use suspension of disbelief. Under that agreement, it is ALL REAL. The fighters did turn that way in space. The characters did claim that the range was 100,000km even as the target was clearly right next to them and so on...

Third paragraph: If you define plot as the "intentions" of the character, then it is OK to use them, and no one ever said ignoring dialogue. Just that they are below visuals. No guess, no theory, no matter from whom, is more credible than a well made observation.

Fourth paragraph: The sound is from artificial sounding systems so as to immerse a pilot. That sound is being fed into the aural circuit - in fact, IIRC this idea is supported in the SW radio drama. And one cannot begin to appreciate the feeling of familiarity. In fact, it is actually written flat out in the Rebel Sourcebook that starships face each other the "right way up" all the time just to be more comfortable!

But that really is not important. Science is about observing first. We merely observe that the sound can reach us, and that the starships do turn aerodynamic-like.

Fifth paragraph: I don't know why it happens, but every time I explain the importance of visuals over dialogue, people assume I am telling them to look at the pictures only. No. You can use the dialogue, just that they don't override a visual, EVER.

Besides, your assertion is clearly and visually false, if you analyze the starstreaks, you can see in normal space that there are no significant streaks. At warp, there are a few short streaks. The runup to hyperspace makes long streaks as far as the eye could see, before going into a vortex. Clearly it is not the same thing, so stop pretending as if it is.

If anything, I've been told that hyperspace looks a bit like quantum slipstream. If that is true, then since it is commonly accepted that quantum slipstream is faster than normal warp... it is clear that a hyperdrive is also superior

Last paragraphs: I disagree. It is logically unlikely that the E-D can turn faster than it ever did. It is a lot more likely to say that there was a gap (a acceptable thing) in the filming, and the ship reverted, turned, thus explaining the lack of effect. You wouldn't even SEE the E-D at all if it was at warp, even if it could turn a 90 degree corner in zero time and without an inch of turn radius. It'll blink by you so fast that your retinas won't even register the momentary signature exposed to it, and neither would the film camera.

Very last paragraph:[/b} In fact, the whole purpose of these groups are to pick on little things like this. It is not a lack of confidence. It is like wantting to prove we are 11,000,000 times superior rather than just 10,000,000 times. Got it?

Besides, the point of my little talk is not about your debate at all. That is a local issue, and I joined too late to understand the full context. However, I am here to talk with you about philosophy, and that your philosophy is not suitable for this group. It is not WRONG. But it is for another, not-so-scientific NG.

[DarkStar]

Clearly, the separation begins at warp speed. Now, there is NEVER any visual indication that the ship ever drops out of warp. For example, there is no classic light burst (similar to when a ship enteres warp) or the "de-streching" effect so commonly seen throughout the run of TNG. This lack of visual evidence clearly demonstrates that the ship did not exit warp.

You just mentioned something I had never considered. This downwarp flash & stretch (as seen in "Endgame"[VOY] and on Enterprise) takes much longer than 1/15th of a second (one frame), which is the warsie time estimate for their proposed drop from warp.

[Master of Ossus]

Clearly, the separation begins at warp speed. Now, there is NEVER any visual indication that the ship ever drops out of warp. For example, there is no classic light burst (similar to when a ship enteres warp) or the "de-streching" effect so commonly seen throughout the run of TNG. This lack of visual evidence clearly demonstrates that the ship did not exit warp.

You just mentioned something I had never considered. This downwarp flash & stretch (as seen in "Endgame"[VOY] and on Enterprise) takes much longer than 1/15th of a second (one frame), which is the warsie time estimate for their proposed drop from warp.

Do all ships have warp flashes? Is it necessarily true for the Enterprise to have a warp flash when it drops from warp?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Then according to DarkStar's logic, the Enterprise was able to go more than half-way across the Sol System is about five seconds in TMP.

[Master of Ossus]

Then according to DarkStar's logic, the Enterprise was able to go more than half-way across the Sol System is about five seconds in TMP.

[sarcasm] I wonder why it took them so long to get out of spacedock in the next movie, with a ship that was better and probably faster.

[DarkStar]

Do all ships have warp flashes? Is it necessarily true for the Enterprise to have a warp flash when it drops from warp?

Every time the observation point has been moving with the ship, there has been no downwarp flash, just "warp stars" transitioning to "background stars". But, every time we have been observing from the perspective of a stationary observer (or impulse observer), we have seen the downwarp flash, AFAIK. Counterexamples are welcome, if any exist.

[DarkStar]

Then according to DarkStar's logic, the Enterprise was able to go more than half-way across the Sol System is about five seconds in TMP.

Explain.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

It has to do with cutting out action that is not nessesarily needed on the show/film.

obviously in TMP, they didn't want to show the Enterprise traveling across the Sol System for several hours, so they just showed it passing Jupiter/Saturn/Planet Whatever after only a few seconds of them traveling, for the sake of the viewers.

Same basic idea could be possibly occuring during "Farpoint". They decide not to show the E-D exiting then entering warp. After all, the show isn't in realtime, isn't it.

Now I'm going to bed, because it's 1:00 AM and I'm fucking tired.

[DarkStar]

It has to do with cutting out action that is not nessesarily needed on the show/film.

obviously in TMP, they didn't want to show the Enterprise traveling across the Sol System for several hours, so they just showed it passing Jupiter/Saturn/Planet Whatever after only a few seconds of them traveling, for the sake of the viewers.

Same basic idea could be possibly occuring during "Farpoint". They decide not to show the E-D exiting then entering warp. After all, the show isn't in realtime, isn't it.

Now I'm going to bed, because it's 1:00 AM and I'm fucking tired.

Someone over at ASVS also made the assertion of "unseen missing time". How long was it? Days? Weeks? Years? Can we insert "unseen missing time" into Star Wars, too? Oh, the possibilities...

[Vympel]

Darkstar, we have an entire ST show- Voyager- whose sole premise is how slow warp drive is. The ST speed disadvantage to SW is bleedin obvious- this 'unseen missing time' as you call it is perfectly valid.

If you tried to apply it to SW, it would fail. Trying to assert that months had passed between Darth Maul leaving Coruscant and arriving at Tatooine in TPM for one example, would be the height of idiocy.

[Lord Poe]

Anyway, based on the facts, it seems clear that the E-D did make a sharp turn at warp speed (though there is no real indication of exactly what factor) The reasons are quite clear from both the plot and dialog, as well as Poe's own stills and animations:

Fact #1) The plot purpose of the saucer separation was to get the saucer far enough along toward Farpoint that it would be able to finish the trip to Farpoint in a reasonable amount of time on its own power, after it decelerated from warp.

Which it did, along with the stardrive section

http://h4h.com/louis/baldyj.jpg

Fact #2) The separation occured at warp speed.

Irrelevant. This point wasn't contested.

Fact #3) The crew was worried about the warp separation because they feared it might destroy the ship.

Irrelevant. This point wasn't contested.
Fact #4) No dialog ever mentions the drive section either dropping from warp or re-entering warp after the turn.

Irrelevant. Why would dialogue be needed? Picard already laid the plan out.

PICARD:Captain's log, stardate 42354. 1. Preparing to detach Saucer Module so that families and majority of the ship's company can seek relative safety while our vessel's stardrive, containing our Battle Bridge and main armaments, will turn back and confront the mystery that is threatening us.

Fact #5) Visual evidence clearly shows the drive section beginning its turn while in close proximity to the saucer section (within several ship lengths)

Irrelevant. This wasn't contested.

From the facts above, and reasonable person would have to conclude that the turn happened at warp.

All you did was sprinkle irrelevant facts around the main issue: that the stardrive section was not at warp when it made the turn.

[Ender]

DarkStar, I don't have time to go into detail, but trust me, you're wrong.

[The Yosemite Bear]

If it took months to travel from Corescant to tatoonine....

Ani-what I'm going to have a little brother or sister
Obiwon: Just what have you been up to master
Qui-gon: Just Shut up you two....