Talifan 2007

[Mange]

Mange, did Dark Goose ban you too? His behaviour was certainly disgusting; I must admit I lost a good deal of will to debate with any SW officials since that 3,000,000 debate.

Yes, he banned me and he perverted every word I wrote.

[Elfdart]

Exactly: Screw the EU!

I think Traviss' work belongs in the same heap as the giant killer rabbit from the Star Wars comics.

[K. A. Pital]

3,000,000 clones is as worthy of attention as the Glove of Darth Vader kid's book. Perhaps the latter even moreso.

[Jim Raynor]

Frankly I don't care who issued the numbers, Travis or LFL. They are still hard to swallow. But it's Mrs. Travis reaction to her crtics that has been the most hard to take, we have been called down and labelled as Talifans because we dare to disagree with her books and writing style. Now call me crazy but when one is offered constructive criticism one should take it and try and better one self, not lash out in anger and disgust and trumpet her "journo" credentials as if they absolve her of critiscism. I have never seen Dr. Saxton deride his critics and he has recieved far more scorn than Mrs. Travis has for her books.

What you say is true, but I can definately see them deleting/banning over this. I was banned from Traviss's LiveJournal for less. I believe all I did was say that the "Talifans" might not have been unjustified in insulting her, while presenting evidence in support of the "Talifan" position.

[K. A. Pital]

Talifans. Okay, people who actually can count and think Star Wars has to be internally realistic... are labelled Talifans.

Does one need to do more to discredit himself? Traviss did that and she's a douche; no doubts here. Efforts should be concentrated on attacking her number in the largest possible amount of high-publicity Star Wars publications so that this "3,000,000" nonsense gets to a higher figure with at least some measure of logic.

Traviss is a lost case; leave her be. She's terminally insane, I remember her proud "Iraq war" ramblings and those alone were nuff to make me sick.

[Aaron]

What you say is true, but I can definately see them deleting/banning over this. I was banned from Traviss's LiveJournal for less. I believe all I did was say that the "Talifans" might not have been unjustified in insulting her, while presenting evidence in support of the "Talifan" position.

I imagine she'll have her cronies descend on it. But it's worth the effort. Is Dark Moose the guy that she leads around on a lease?

[Jim Raynor]

Traviss is a lost case; leave her be. She's terminally insane, I remember her proud "Iraq war" ramblings and those alone were nuff to make me sick.

Just what did she say about the Iraq war? Did she wank to the "relevance" of her work by saying that Palpatine deceived the Republic the way George W. Bush deceived America?

One thing that I've found to be utterly unbelievable about this whole controversy is that at the same time that Traviss has been wanking up the GAR into uber special forces who can fight on more worlds than they have individual soldiers, in the REAL world, the mightiest army on Earth is bogged down in a fucking quagmire in Iraq. While fighting piece of shit, poorly trained third world insurgents. Because the US just doesn't have enough troops. Someone point THIS out to the bitch.

[Jim Raynor]

Is Dark Moose the guy that she leads around on a lease?

Yes, although he seems to voluntarily do a lot of his own asskissing.

[Aaron]

Yes, although he seems to voluntarily do a lot of his own asskissing.

Lot of that going on in that blog too.

[K. A. Pital]

Just what did she say about the Iraq war?

"Brush fire conflict" yadda yadda "Iraq war" yadda yadda "little numbers of experienced super-elite US supermen soldiers confronting easily millions of idiotic war-meat brown people". This is the essence of her train of thought; it was pretty much sealed in her LJ post. When I read _that_ type of explanation, I was sure nothing can be done. The person was mad.

[Mange]

Yes, although he seems to voluntarily do a lot of his own asskissing.

Lot of that going on in that blog too.

I noticed your second comment, but you forgot that Traviss "retconned" the number of droids to be a few hundred millions.

[Aaron]

I noticed your second comment, but you forgot that Traviss "retconned" the number of droids to be a few hundred millions.

There's been so much bullshit flying around surounding this issue that it's been hard to keep straight. I'll be sure to address it if it comes up. Didn't the guide to droids (forget the real title) state a number in the quintillions again. I think Ender posted on it.

[K. A. Pital]

Traviss "retconned" the number of droids to be a few hundred millions

A few hundred millions... overwhelming the Republic? I thought ODDS was in fact refuting her own bullshit, showing the lunacies of a deranged clone soldier who thought it was that little but in fact it was big.

Seriously though, hundreds of millions of droids? Grievous doesn't know what forces he has? Pathetic. All are co-conspiring with fucking Plapatine, is that her good solution?

[Elfdart]

I just posted this over at SW.com:

The number of clones in the Grand Army of the Republic (and the number of armies in the service of the Republic/ Empire) is actually a MacGuffin in this dispute. What's really at issue is the way some people react to criticism. For the record, I don't care for any of the EU and consider 99% of it on the same level as the infamous Holiday Special and the Giant Bunny Bounty Hunter from the Marvel Comics.

Anyone who creates art of any kind, whether the written word , music, sculpture or whatever, is going to face criticism -some of it extremely harsh. They can expect to be ridiculed in the cruelest manner. Those are the breaks. If someone trashes your work, the best recourse is to ignore them or kill them with kindness. Sometimes a response is in order to set the record straight. What Grand Admiral Sean8 and Karen Traviss have done is not only not helpful, but counterproductive as well.

If the critics are just trolls and bullies, then reacting to them this way only encourages them. If their criticisms are valid or are simply grounds for dispute, then reacting this way reflects badly on the one being criticized, not the critic. A thin skin is a liability in the arts. After all, there's no shortage of harsh criticism and ridicule aimed at George Lucas. Why anyone else is entitled to kid gloves -when the creator of the whole milieu isn't- is a question I leave for others to answer.

I'll also leave for Grand Admiral Sean8 to explain why he would make demonstrably false claims about a video that anyone who logs on to YouTube can see for himself or herself. There is no threatened execution in that clip.

If people are going to have any kind of discussion, then a certain level of honesty is required. After all, Christians (as well as members of other faiths) are told not to bear false witness.

What's the over/under on how long it takes for Dork Moose to delete it? Any takers?

[Elfdart]

Oops! I had to cut it down to 750 characters.

[Aaron]

I say that you and I are both banned within the day.

[Noble Ire]

I was banned for roughly that, although my own efforts were spread over several days and several comment lines. Perhaps cooler heads in the moderating community there have taken the reigns, but I honestly doubt it, epecially if Dark Moose still lurks there.

[000]

I don't know if I've related this anecdote here yet, but back when that Darth Bane novel came out a bunch of us over at TF.N took Karpyshyn to task (very politely, of course) for the morass of continuity errors that he knowingly included in the book. There was even a thread dedicated to the subject. Drew Karpyshyn, the author, actually stopped by, and politely linked to a blog entry he'd created on the official site explaining his reasoning for the discrepancies. It didn't satisfy very many people, so he basically shrugged, said while he realized he had made some errors, he felt it was his prerogative as a storyteller, and everyone agreed to disagree. Sure, the situation was never resolved, and I won't be purchasing Del Rey material for the forseeable future due to their blithe attitude about continuity, but I had alot of respect for Karpyshyn for how he handled it. I still disagree with his reasoning, but he was a classy guy about it and actually explained where he'd deviated from established canon and why. It's impossible not to respect that.

On a similar note, I was browsing through old posts on TF.N the other day and came across a discussion involving a ship hyperspacing through a planet in Jedi Council: Acts of War. Folks wondered how that sort of thing worked... and Randy Stradley (who wrote that one) wandered in to say he'd screwed up, and to just chalk the event up to "author ignorance." He also offered a possible retcon for folks of the inclusionist mindset.

So, yeah. The point is, contrast that (and how other Dark Horse folks field mistakes and criticism, both on TF.N and their own boards) with Traviss's behavior. It's telling.

[Darth Servo]

Wow. Another person defending Travesty and attacking the objectivist SW fans just happens to be another moron. Color me shocked.

[Vehrec]

[rant]What really ticks me off about this whole thing, really gets my dander up as my grandmother would say, is the whole VIP concept. From the first moment I saw those three little letters, a red haze began to creep into the edges of my vision. I have come to associate those letters with preferential treatment, something that I do not like to see at all. Why should an author be held do different standards than a run of the mill poster? Why should a Mod be held to different standards than those he moderates? Who would in their right mind tolerate such behavior? I wouldn't kiss these people's ass, and I wouldn't expect other people to either!

Slightly worse is how these sites seem to try to deal with dissent. Denial, repression, and outright disinformation. MINTRUTH DOUBLEPLUSGOOD. The Internet is truly wonderful, but it's also terribly delicate. Mods with the power to delete, edit and ban can enforce a kind of alternate reality, a wikiality if you like. If this scares you, it should. The Truth is not a matter of the lowest common denominator. Nor is it exclusive to the elite. Either attitude is something that I do not tolerate with myself, or with the people I deal with. I personally offer up my kudos to SD.net for the Hall of Shame, where people can see the idiots overreact, reject logic and otherwise shame themselves into a position where people agree that a Ban would be a good idea. A most excelent idea, that really should see more use.[/rant] And now I'm out of rage. Goodnight everyone!

[Aaron]

And it's been taken down.

[Mange]

And it's been taken down.

Color me surprised.

EDIT: Oh, the entire blog has been taken down, not just the commentaries.

[Darth Servo]

[rant]What really ticks me off about this whole thing, really gets my dander up as my grandmother would say, is the whole VIP concept. From the first moment I saw those three little letters, a red haze began to creep into the edges of my vision. I have come to associate those letters with preferential treatment, something that I do not like to see at all. Why should an author be held do different standards than a run of the mill poster? Why should a Mod be held to different standards than those he moderates?

Because the people who own SW.com don't give a shit and the mod is an asshole.

[Covenant]

[rant]What really ticks me off about this whole thing, really gets my dander up as my grandmother would say, is the whole VIP concept. From the first moment I saw those three little letters, a red haze began to creep into the edges of my vision. I have come to associate those letters with preferential treatment, something that I do not like to see at all. Why should an author be held do different standards than a run of the mill poster? Why should a Mod be held to different standards than those he moderates?

Because the people who own SW.com don't give a shit and the mod is an asshole.

Also, the presence of supplicating masses draws the VIPs like Kong to bound women, which then feeds the board owners' ego by having prominent members of the writing community coming on to add prestige to their board. I assume they make some kind of money from ads or something in the process. If you encourage dissent, VIPs don't feel like showing up (at least Traviss doesn't), and then the whole system falls apart.

[Darth Servo]

Hey Wayne, I know your #1 project at the moment is Last Bastion and I'm not suggesting diverting attention away from that but is the KT database going to be expanded anytime soon? Its kind of barren with JUST the idiot's mockery of physics.