America-An Evil Country?

[Lord of the Abyss]

America evil, well I don't believe the Iraq war is evil although I do believe that it shouldn't have been neccessary.

It wasn't necessary, which is one of the major reasons it is evil.

If Bush senoir had removed Saddam and kept his promise to the Sheites. America would have had a middle eastern ally that would provide an reason they are better than Europe and good supply of cheap unrestricted oil.

No, we would have ended up in a situation similar to what we have now, but 2 Presidencies earlier. That's IIRC the reason why Bush senior didn't depose Saddam, and one of the reasons so many people opposed the present war.

If I was Bush and found no WMDs I would do like the corrupt cops do when they shoot someone innocent, plant a gun, America could have easily planted a 20 years old WMD that they have in storage.

Which brings us right back to America, and the war, being evil.

[Big Phil]

So America is evil because it has done evil things. Other countries have done evil things, and they too are evil. America and other countries have also done good things, but these don't outweigh the evil. Therefore, America (and pretty much every other nation of any size) is evil.

So... what was the point of this entire exercise?

[Lord of the Abyss]

Therefore, America (and pretty much every other nation of any size) is evil.

So... what was the point of this entire exercise?

An attempt to claim America is not evil, by shifting the debate into the question of whether or not America is more evil than others, and pretending that if all countries are evil, America's evil somehow doesn't count. In other words, not much point at all.

[Thinkmarble]

But I must again note, we did not loot other countries to re-build our own country, post-War. In fact, we invested in other countries to re-build their economies, even as Stalin's economic strategy for the COMECON was wrong.

Actually you did "loot" eastern germany, eg. the Soviet Union took possession of companies producing 25 to 30% of the total industrial production of the zone. (Befehl Nummer 167 of the SMAD from the 5. June 1946) The german democratic republic bought these companies back in 1953 for 2.5 billion Mark. Machinery, Railroad track as well as goods were alsoshipped back into the Soviet Union.
In total the Soviet Union took reperation with an value of 16 billion Dollar out of their zone in .

Also for that case the word loot is, ahh the wrong. We can be happy that we got as easy as it were.

PS.
For the record and completeness sake the USA did loot the german repository for patents (Reichspatentamt in Berlin), selling them for as low as 1 dollar each to american companies. Total value of the know-how transfered has been estimated at around 10 billion dollar (Goes back to the Executive Order 9604 from Truman signed 25th August 1945).
The operation was conducted by the FIAT (Field Information Agency Technical ), etablished July 1945 by General Lucius D. Clay, from January 1946 onwards and did end in 1948.

Source I used Deutsche Geschichte seit 1945 Band 1:1945-1947, Rolf Steiniger (German history since 1945 Volume 1:1945-1947)

[Big Phil]

Therefore, America (and pretty much every other nation of any size) is evil.

So... what was the point of this entire exercise?

An attempt to claim America is not evil, by shifting the debate into the question of whether or not America is more evil than others, and pretending that if all countries are evil, America's evil somehow doesn't count. In other words, not much point at all.

If all countries are evil, then what's the point of arguing about whether America is evil? Hell, you might as well argue whether the IRS is evil...

[Thinkmarble]

If all countries are evil, then what's the point of arguing about whether America is evil? Hell, you might as well argue whether the IRS is evil...

Because the USA is more evil then say the Swiss or Luxembourg and less evil then North Korea.
You have continuum upon which you can place nations, with the order depending on which time frame you use.
The USA for example have racked up quite an impressive number of kill soley through their health care policy and the Iraq policy alone.
I woudl even argue that over given time periods some nations have done more good then evil.

I am not such a grade fan of ordering countries but ignoring bad deeds or deflecting criticism as you do is despicable.

[Big Phil]

If all countries are evil, then what's the point of arguing about whether America is evil? Hell, you might as well argue whether the IRS is evil...

Because the USA is more evil then say the Swiss or Luxembourg and less evil then North Korea.
You have continuum upon which you can place nations, with the order depending on which time frame you use.
The USA for example have racked up quite an impressive number of kill soley through their health care policy and the Iraq policy alone.
I woudl even argue that over given time periods some nations have done more good then evil.

I am not such a grade fan of ordering countries but ignoring bad deeds or deflecting criticism as you do is despicable.

How is North Korea more evil than the USA? They've killed far fewer people than this country has. They've killed fewer of their own people than this country has. And yet you call North Korea more evil?

Also, please don't be a fuckface - I'm not deflecting criticism or ignoring bad deeds. I'm asking what the point of this entire exercise was, as I don't really see the point. If you think personal attacks (calling me despicable) somehow support your position, please continue, but they're not really all that helpful.

[Enforcer Talen]

I would expect the difference being, we do it to other peoples, and they do it to themselves.

[Thinkmarble]

How is North Korea more evil than the USA? They've killed far fewer people than this country has. They've killed fewer of their own people than this country has. And yet you call North Korea more evil?

Because the USA is more evil then say the Swiss or Luxembourg and less evil then North Korea.

And today Class we are learning about the word less.

I am not such a grade fan of ordering countries but ignoring bad deeds or deflecting criticism as you do is despicable.

Also, please don't be a fuckface - I'm not deflecting criticism or ignoring bad deeds. I'm asking what the point of this entire exercise was, as I don't really see the point. If you think personal attacks (calling me despicable) somehow support your position, please continue, but they're
not really all that helpful.

What you are doing is setting up a false equivalency between the USAand, well any country.
And that is a way to deflect criticism.
A way I fucking hate.

[K. A. Pital]

I would expect the difference being, we do it to other peoples, and they do it to themselves.

Perhaps so. But that's a fucking lame excuse. The Nazis are paragons of good this way. Whoever has such mentality is a retard - doing evil to others is even less warranted that commiting it on your own territory. Other countries did not give you the right to kill their people, didn't they?

Actually you did "loot" eastern germany

Germany was a separate case. It owed us big, in reparations.

In total the Soviet Union took reperation with an value of 16 billion Dollar out of their zone in

That's just a half of what was initially planned as reparations, IIRC.

Also for that case the word loot is, ahh the wrong.

Well certainly, there's a difference between "war reparations" and "loot", they're like, totally different words aren't they?

[Thinkmarble]

That's just a half of what was initially planned as reparations, IIRC.

Orginially 10 billion was planned before the end of the war.

The other Allies were actually opposed against taking out reperations, mainly because they feared that germany would end up dependent when too much would be taking out, so that ultimately the USA would pay the bill.
Compromise made was then that every state would take out reperations out of their zone, ultimately sending down the road of seperation.

Well certainly, there's a difference between "war reparations" and "loot", they're like, totally different words aren't they?

Yes

[K. A. Pital]

Orginially 10 billion was planned before the end of the war.

True, my bad. 20 billion was the overall sum for all Allies. However, I'm sort of curious why the reparations were stopped in 1953 if the whole sum and more has already been paid? Perhaps the "looting" came in form of getting assets undervalue.

[Thinkmarble]

Orginially 10 billion was planned before the end of the war.

True, my bad. 20 billion was the overall sum for all Allies. However, I'm sort of curious why the reparations were stopped in 1953 if the whole sum and more has already been paid? Perhaps the "looting" came in form of getting assets undervalue.

I actually do not know how they controlled how much value they took out of the zone.
Also I do have my suspicion that they took out what they took out mainly because they could, and stopped their actions after the 53 uprising in the German Democratic Republic. Not that I can prove it, my knowledge being too cursory.
After the uprising was quelled the Soviet Union changed policy, with the Soviet Union stopping reperations, defaulting debt, reducing the Occupational Cost to 5% of the GDR budget, returing the last companies to german ownership and starting food deliveries from January 1954 onwards.

[K. A. Pital]

Not that I can prove it, my knowledge being too cursory.

You are right, it was the 53' uprising and in Aug.1953 the decision to stop the payments came, but I wasn't wondering about that. I'm merely wondering what sort of debt the GDR could've had if it has _really_ paid more than the planned amount of reparations. Of course, that is if this amount (16 billion) has not been established by backwards-accounting later, while at the time assets were given away at a far lesser value.

[Big Phil]

Because the USA is more evil then say the Swiss or Luxembourg and less evil then North Korea.

And today Class we are learning about the word less.

So what exactly is your point? That you don't have an answer and therefore you'll be a smartass and hope I don't notice? The USA is less evil than North Korea = North Korea is more evil than the USA. Simple, and yet you avoid the question. So I'll rephrase it so you don't piss and moan about grammar - how is the USA less evil than North Korea?

[Darth Wong]

You have to put some limits on those statements anyway. North Korea is unquestionably more evil than the US in terms of the way it treats its own citizens. However, as a fairly contained, generally isolationist turd of a state, it is almost neutral in terms of its current behaviour on the world stage.

Conversely, the US is fairly benevolent in terms of the way it treats its own citizens (although not "the greatest in the world" as its leaders keep saying), but its foreign-policy behaviour is consistently violent, intrusive, and bullying.

To put it in more personal terms, North Korea is the guy who beats his own children but doesn't cause any problem for the authorities. The US is the guy who treats his own children well but is always bullying other people in the neighbourhood and getting into fights with them.

[Big Phil]

You have to put some limits on those statements anyway. North Korea is unquestionably more evil than the US in terms of the way it treats its own citizens. However, as a fairly contained, generally isolationist turd of a state, it is almost neutral in terms of its current behaviour on the world stage.

Conversely, the US is fairly benevolent in terms of the way it treats its own citizens (although not "the greatest in the world" as its leaders keep saying), but its foreign-policy behaviour is consistently violent, intrusive, and bullying.

To put it in more personal terms, North Korea is the guy who beats his own children but doesn't cause any problem for the authorities. The US is the guy who treats his own children well but is always bullying other people in the neighbourhood and getting into fights with them.

That's an excellent analogy. I wish Thinkmarble had explained it that way, but he/she didn't. Oh well. I would add that the US is also the bully who helps little old ladies across the street occasionally, is head of the block watch and the neighborhood board, keeps his friends safe by beating up those who piss him off, and hands out money to the poor occasionally... kind of like mob bosses in a way

In any case, how can anyone objectively state that the guy who beats his own kids is worse than the neighborhood bully, or vice versa? It's a matter of perspective, is it not? The bully's kids think he's a great guy, while the abusive guy's kids think he's an asshole, and so on.

[K. A. Pital]

I would add that the US is also the bully who helps little old ladies across the street occasionally, is head of the block watch and the neighborhood board, keeps his friends safe by beating up those who piss him off, and hands out money to the poor occasionally... kind of like mob bosses in a way

Yeah, that sounds like a good old Don Vito. He can even give candies to kids and some bucks to the downtrodden. But he never forgets or forgives, and he deals brutally with adversaries. I'm also sure Don Vito's kids love the wealthy childhood they have and laugh at all those pathetic alcoholic lower-class kids around the world. I don't think they would call Don Vito evil.

[Thinkmarble]

Simple, and yet you avoid the question. So I'll rephrase it so you don't piss and moan about grammar - how is the USA less evil than North Korea?

I apologize, I have misread you.

To answer your question: Malice versus Incompetence*, and number of people killed, tortured and robbed of dignity and freedom. I tend not to count total numbers but in percentages of people "available" to them.

Also on second though you just might have caught me being biased towards my tribe.


Anyway my point still stands, not all countries are made equal in their evilness.
To choose an example where I feel I am on secure ground , the German Empire from 33 to 45 has obviously comitted more evil deeds inside and outside their border then the Federal Republic from 1995 to 2007.

[K. A. Pital]

To choose an example where I feel I am on secure ground

Choosing one of the most evil recent acts in history (Holocaust and World War II instigation) is of course a safe ground for comparison

To answer your question: Malice versus Incompetence*, and number of people killed, tortured and robbed of dignity and freedom. I tend not to count total numbers but in percentages of people "available" to them.

That's wrong on several levels IMHO. US scheming and foreign murder through wars isn't "incompetence", pardon me, whilst counting people in the numbers of "available to them" sounds a little strange - if there wasn't a single Jew in Germany and they only wiped out civilian populations on enemy territory, would they suddenly become good? Actually, the mistreatment of own citizens, an example of evil act, can also be done due to reasons of some sort of "greater good", just like the ruthless invasion of foreign countries and interventionism. There's can be, technically, little difference, motivation-wise, from beating your own children and neighbor people. The motivation can be the same in both cases. I'm not saying it must, but definetely it's possible.

[Big Phil]

Simple, and yet you avoid the question. So I'll rephrase it so you don't piss and moan about grammar - how is the USA less evil than North Korea?

I apologize, I have misread you.

To answer your question: Malice versus Incompetence*, and number of people killed, tortured and robbed of dignity and freedom. I tend not to count total numbers but in percentages of people "available" to them.

Also on second though you just might have caught me being biased towards my tribe.


Anyway my point still stands, not all countries are made equal in their evilness.
To choose an example where I feel I am on secure ground , the German Empire from 33 to 45 has obviously comitted more evil deeds inside and outside their border then the Federal Republic from 1995 to 2007.

Agreed completely on Nazi Germany vs. FRG. You still haven't answered the question about North Korea, however. How (and why) are they more evil than the USA?

[Thinkmarble]

Agreed completely on Nazi Germany vs. FRG. You still haven't answered the question about North Korea, however. How (and why) are they more evil than the USA?

This was meant as an answer:

To answer your question: Malice versus Incompetence, and number of people killed, tortured and robbed of dignity and freedom. I tend not to count total numbers but in percentages of people "available" to them.


Also on second though you just might have caught me being biased towards my tribe.


In other words, I have abandoned my position because I have no fucking clue how many people North Korea killed over the course of, say the last ten years, and I have no fucking clue how many people the USA and North Korea have tortured, I have no fucking idea how to value lifes lost vs. freedom lost vs. anarchy caused, and I have no fucking clue which percentage of the the Iraqi excess mortality to attribute to the USA and which percentage to other actors. And that is just for a start.

This is way I stated that my reason for valueing the USA as better North Korea is maybe tribal allegiance, as the USA is a leading member of the western culture group.

And why I then choose a different example (3rd Reich vs. FRG).

[Big Phil]

snip

I see what you mean. My point, which I'll reiterate, is that many nations do things that can be considered evil, and things that can be considered good. The evaluation of said actions is largely subjective, and based on one's view. Most Germans didn't view (and many still don't) Nazi Germany's actions as evil; rather they were getting back what had been taken from them at Versailles. Even after the war was over, many persisted in believing they were fighting to defend Germany from communism or whatever, although the rest of the world had a very different perspective.

Bottom line - we can argue about how good or evil the USA, Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, etc., are all day long, and never agree simply because we're looking at it with difference perceptions. There is no objective right or wrong answer. Using Mike's example, who is worse - the neighborhood bully or the abuser? I guess I'm just wondering why we all spent eight pages arguing is all. I'm going to duck out at this point, since I don't really see the point in continuing and I'm not arguing one way or the other.

[Coyote]

Actually, a lot of it seems to be that we do the same-ol'-same-ol' evil as every other country on the planet and throughout history, except that the US constantly tries to sell the idea that we're somehow this shining beacon of democracy, freedom, liberty, brotherly love, and all that other teary-eyed self-stroking drum-circle stuff.

These things are enshrined in our official documents of how things are supposed to be, but sadly our leadership of the last few generations has been very slack in seeing to it that we live up to those standards and ideals. Maybe for a few brief shining moments here and there we've stood tall and all that, but by loudly proclaiming our wonderfulness and then rolling in the same mud & blood as everyone else, it is our hypocrisy, and willing self-blindness to that hypocrisy, that maginifies the sense of evil.

[Batman]

I think Coyote got it. The problem is not that the US are more evil than other countries (they are, but only very recently) but that they have for decades claimed to be the paragorns of virtue while being busy creating regimes that they'd later (when they failed to take control of 'em) declare 'evil, SUPPORTING regimes they'd officially call evil...