America-An Evil Country?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-01-24 10:53pm

Batman wrote:I think Coyote got it. The problem is not that the US are more evil than other countries (they are, but only very recently) but that they have for decades claimed to be the paragorns of virtue while being busy creating regimes that they'd later (when they failed to take control of 'em) declare 'evil, SUPPORTING regimes they'd officially call evil...

"our good friend, the Shah of Iran ..." - Dinesh D'Souza.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2007-01-24 11:34pm

I love another quote:

"It is a deliberate effort by a powerful atheistic government to subjugate an independent Islamic people."
Jimmy Carter denouncing the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan

So the current Administration clearly is acting against the, um, will of God?

R. U. Serious · Post by **R. U. Serious** » 2007-01-25 02:30pm

Coyote wrote:Actually, a lot of it seems to be that we do the same-ol'-same-ol' evil as every other country on the planet and throughout history, except that the US constantly tries to sell the idea that we're somehow this shining beacon of democracy, freedom, liberty, brotherly love, and all that other teary-eyed self-stroking drum-circle stuff.

How is that unique or special to the US? Visit Turkey for a while, and you'll see that's the same story they tell themselves. And I would be very suprised if there were not many more countries that did the same.

Personally I think what makes the US more or less unique in this day and age, is that they have the widest reach and influence, or power, if you will. It's all about opportunity (to do things or mess things up). And the US "just happened" to have many, many more than most other countries in recent history (No, I am not implying it was merely luck). And by "reach" I not only mean political reach, but also cultural and media-reach.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2007-01-25 03:08pm

With great power comes great responsibility. Many countries which had great power used it for both good, and evil. But I don't think any of them was so much exempt from any criticism as the US is today. Russian Empire? British Empire? USSR? China? Name any state with great power, recent or past, you'll always find enough criticism.

The US? A different story. How much of the world media dares to openly criticize the US, past or present? And by openly I don't mean "oh, we don't like that Bush guy here in Europ-s", but "the US is commiting unlawful acts on both it's territory and the territory of other states". These acts, despite the right-wing's constant cries of "media conspiracy and treason!" enjoy brief and non-lasting publicity, as well as the people's apathy.

"Oh, the US is playing bad again. Just switch over to Comedy Club". The agression against Iraq - an agression for all legal purpose of the international law - was in the media nothing but "fireworks on TV", "war-reality show". Compare that to the media shitstorm that Russia's military action against Islamists on it's own territory caused. The media shitstorm that was caused by the foreign interventions of the USSR, China... Iraq and Iran. Who treated these events as "fireworks" and "history's made at our reality show", huh? Even Israel got more flak for it's _murky_ action against Lebanon... and historically has been getting more flak in the media, than the US IMHO.

This, combined with the rabid claims of all-righteousness done by the ruling circles in the US, are quite a reason for the US to enjoy some of the "select" status that it, exempt from criticism, hasn't really enjoyed in the eye of the common beholder.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2007-01-25 04:23pm

Stas Bush wrote:But I must again note, we did not loot other countries to re-build our own country, post-War. In fact, we invested in other countries to re-build their economies, even as Stalin's economic strategy for the COMECON was wrong.

Nah, you just had German slaves with 39% death rates. Jesus I'm continuously amazed on how bad your education over there must be on your own sins. American academics are very unapologetic for the U.S. errors and crimes. In fact a major revitalization of the right wing is a result of people feeling sorry and not liking it because they've been correctly educated about history.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-01-25 04:38pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Nah, you just had German slaves with 39% death rates. Jesus I'm continuously amazed on how bad your education over there must be on your own sins. American academics are very unapologetic for the U.S. errors and crimes. In fact a major revitalization of the right wing is a result of people feeling sorry and not liking it because they've been correctly educated about history.

I'm not sure I'd be making blanket statements like that. The Southern States constantly try to white wash the civil war with claims that it was really about state's rights rather than slavery, calling it "The War of Northern Aggression". My high school history class pretty much treated WW2 Japanese internment camps as a minor "whoops".

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2007-01-25 04:49pm

Nah, you just had German slaves with 39% death rates.

155,262 German internees = revival of Soviet economy? Don't fucking tell me you're honestly adressing my fucking point. Or you just chose to snip the point to point out an atrocity on our part? Nitpicking much? 155,262, man. For a country with 150 million. From a country with 40 million.

Oh, and as you love to use wikipedia, why don't you quote out something else:

Forced labor turned out to be inefficient and unprofitable.

I guess it's too fucking hard to realize that re-building an economy on 155K forced labourers isn't an option

As for death rates among the interned Germans, do you know where they come from? P.Polyan's book. Which I read, and you obviously did not. The death rate for internees was 19%, for the "arrested" category only 39% (66152 total, 25K dead). Who was in that category?
"... a) spies b) all german paramilitary members c) all terrorist group leaders d) active members of the NSDAP g) regional and municipal leaders of Hitlerjugend e) Gestapo members j) leaders of regional, municipal administrations." (P.Polyan's "Not of their own will") The excuse was physical condition, bad health, etc. All of the aforementioned categories who were deemed healthy, they comprised the "arrested" category with the 39% death rate. 66K. For an economy of over 100 million.

You're the one who:
1) distorted the claim
2) nitpicked on an atrocity as if it helped to rebuild the economy by any significant margin
3) misrepresented the categories of people who were interned for reparations and did not state their number, contributing to (2)

Retract or explain yourself.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2007-01-25 04:54pm

Oh, noted that lil' gem:

Jesus I'm continuously amazed on how bad your education over there must be on your own sins. American academics are very unapologetic for the U.S. errors and crimes.

Polyan is a Russian academic whose superior and pretty much encompassing study on the matter of internee labour is well-known to Russian historical community and world history. Oh, and I've read the fucking book; have you? What the fuck does it have to do with the point I was making, about economic recovery? Right; jack shit.

And pardon me, there's enough studies on our own atrocities from both here and abroad. So don't fucking bullshit me on the lack of academic coverage or something.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-01-25 05:30pm

I don't see how any American can seriously claim that American history as taught in high school is honest about the country's past. How many Americans even know the kind of shit they pulled in the Philippines, or how Hawaii became a state, or what kind of a man they're really celebrating on Columbus Day, or just how totally false all of the Southern apologist Civil War bullshit is?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2007-01-25 05:41pm

Darth Wong wrote:I don't see how any American can seriously claim that American history as taught in high school is honest about the country's past. How many Americans even know the kind of shit they pulled in the Philippines, or how Hawaii became a state, or what kind of a man they're really celebrating on Columbus Day, or just how totally false all of the Southern apologist Civil War bullshit is?

I meant at the collegiate level.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-01-25 05:53pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I meant at the collegiate level.

Which approximately what, 5% of the population reaches?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2007-01-26 12:51am

Darth Wong wrote:I don't see how any American can seriously claim that American history as taught in high school is honest about the country's past. How many Americans even know the kind of shit they pulled in the Philippines, or how Hawaii became a state, or what kind of a man they're really celebrating on Columbus Day, or just how totally false all of the Southern apologist Civil War bullshit is?

My highschool prof told me most of it, but he got transferred.

My pet theory is that people complained.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2007-01-26 07:28am

[quote="Illuminatus Primus"]German slaves with 39% death rates./quote]

So fucking what? I suggest you read some of Omer Bartov's work before you get teary eyed over some Fritzes dying in the process of rebuilding the land they came and burned down to the ground and shot everyone they could find.....

Admiral_Icehawk · Post by **Admiral_Icehawk** » 2007-01-26 09:56am

Fine America is evil, however does that make every one of their enemies a hero?

The one big problem with America and modern democracy in general is the fact that you don't have to face the concequences of their actions since most take time.

PS: Lord of the Abyss, I know a guy you'd like on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/BabylonWarrior

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-01-26 04:39pm

Admiral_Icehawk wrote:Fine America is evil, however does that make every one of their enemies a hero?

Of course not. Nice black and white fallacy though.

xerex · Post by **xerex** » 2007-01-27 05:43am

America is not uniquely evil. All powerful countires have committed atrocities.

What makes america unique is that it expects to be loved and for everyone to be continuelly grateful.

Its that dichotamy that makes the US appear to be especially hypocritcal.

One incident that amazed me was during the invasion of Iraq. The Iraqis had mined the Port of Tal Afar and the US media was just outraged.

How dare the Iraqi military mine their own ports in their defence, dont they realize we're liberating them. ---a paraphrase but very close to what was said..

Admiral_Icehawk · Post by **Admiral_Icehawk** » 2007-01-28 07:38am

The way I look at the world, its kinda like the System Lords in Stargate they are all assholes but you have to pick one of them to go with.

This is my scale of negative and positive. Negative being evil.
-America: 1+, bit of good bit of evil, generous ally, some good people
-Canada: 4+, pretty good all though they are like America in some small ways
-Brittian: 3+, good but, they lecture everyone and cover up their problems
-North Korea: 4-, psycho isolationists, alougth remove the gov and they'd be better
-Iran: -2, sorta democratic, too much censorship, Sorta rogue
-France: 1+, democratic but like Brittian they blame other to hide their own problems, plus they have their own atrocities.
-Pre-War Iraq: 5- like North Korea but with a James Bond Villian as leader.
-Post-War Iraq: 1- better although policiticans inherited traits from prev leader.
-Russia: 1+, corrupt elements of govenment, really still a forming nation
Australia: 4+, we're about on par with Canada the way I see it.
-China: 0+, poor human right, get rid of that and the country be great
-Israel: -1, improving thanks to that land thing, still oppressive though

This is just my opinion.

Remember anti-war people, Bush isn't the entire country, he did just loose congress and the senate.