US military demonstrates new toy: heat ray

[Aaron]

Terror tactics, the desire to use a new toy, or simple sadism.

And once you start doing that your going to have more riots and demonstrations not less.

[Aaron]

Terror tactics,

The military is the business of winning wars not terrorising civvie populations.

the desire to use a new toy,

The "toy" as you put it will be thoroughly tested before deployment and if you break the SOP for escalation of force for a riot you are punished.

or simple sadism.

Right because the military is just full of cutthroats, murderers, and general sadists. You know generally we try and weed out those types of people.

[Sikon]

I just hope they actually checked it would not permanently damage eyes of exposed people, it is known microwaves can cause cataract (also delayed). More energy can also cause loss of muscule control and tissue necrosis.

BTW - How much is 300mW/cm2 for 20 minutes?

OSHA limits are 10mW/cm2 for 6 minutes for safe PEL (Permissible exposure limits). http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/multimedia.html#r

OSHA limits would be made with much different criteria. This is probably much more than 10 mW/cm^2, as that would be only 0.01 W/cm^2. A small portable test device I read about somewhere needed 400 W, while not having a large beam diameter, so probably this is either a large fraction of a watt or multiple watts per square centimeter. But it would be very brief exposure.

And it only penetrates a short distance into the skin with its 95-GHz microwaves, less penetrating than the 2.45 GHz of microwave ovens, and people shouldn't have prolonged eye exposure. (Due to dealing with limited public understanding of the relative safety of non-ionizing radiation like microwaves, publications sometimes call this millimeter-wavelength radiation "not microwave energy," but the usual standard for microwaves includes all GHz-range radiation below 300 GHz or 1000 GHz frequency, with higher frequency being infrared up until visible and so on).

Usually non-lethal weapons aren't absolutely 100% ideal, but they provide additional options compared to only having regular weapons. After all, regular weapons shooting bullets would do a lot more to the recipients than expose them to heating above OSHA safety regulations...

This does seem practically impossible to result in accidental death, which is better than the slight but more non-zero risk with some other non-lethal weapons.

[Darth Tanner]

Amristar massacre?

It could happen if these things start to end up in Israeli or Iraqi defense force hands which would seem to have the most obvious need for such devices.

Although it would still be far better to be 'slightly burned' than to be shot/trampled to death.

[Lord of the Abyss]

"Mass Crowds with no means of escape or cover".

Okay, in what situation could that happen, exactly?

Any open ( no cover ) place with walls or fences or dropoffs or ranks of soldiers on the edges not facing the weapon. That's another thought; we could use it to stampede crowds of people into soldiers who would be "forced" to open fire in "self defense". We could even make sure the embedded media is standing at the right angle to film the charging mob, but not see the weapon they are fleeing from; the beam's invisible, after all. Or it could be beamed down into an enclosure full of detainees, to "pacify" them and soften them up for "interrogation".

Terror tactics, the desire to use a new toy, or simple sadism.

And once you start doing that your going to have more riots and demonstrations not less.

That hasn't stopped us yet from using terror tactics.

The military is the business of winning wars not terrorising civvie populations.

The Iraqis would be very surprised to hear that. Well, not really, but they sure wouldn't believe it.

Although it would still be far better to be 'slightly burned' than to be shot/trampled to death.

If people are fleeing in agony from this thing, I expect you'll see quite a few people trampled to death.

[Aaron]

That hasn't stopped us yet from using terror tactics.

Such as?

The Iraqis would be very surprised to hear that. Well, not really, but they sure wouldn't believe it.

The Iraqi's are hardly an objetive source on the matter. I can't say that I'm a fan of the Iraq war or of some of the US tactics in the war but at least their not blowing up cars in markets.

[Aaron]

If people are fleeing in agony from this thing, I expect you'll see quite a few people trampled to death.

How is that any different from tear gas, rubber bullets, water cannons, armoured vehicles or the myriad of other riot control devices at the disposal of the military that can cause a crowd to panic? The best way not to get trampled in a riot is to not be in one and the best way to control a riot is to use proper control techniques, read the crowd and not employ force at all. The Canadian contingent at the Drvar riot in Bosnia never fired a shot or used any force. There was a buttstroking but that's because a rioter tried to take a soldiers weapon away.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Most riot suppression devices can be used for torture, but the fact is that they end up saving lives.

[Molyneux]

"Mass Crowds with no means of escape or cover".

Okay, in what situation could that happen, exactly?

Any open ( no cover ) place with walls or fences or dropoffs or ranks of soldiers on the edges not facing the weapon. That's another thought; we could use it to stampede crowds of people into soldiers who would be "forced" to open fire in "self defense". We could even make sure the embedded media is standing at the right angle to film the charging mob, but not see the weapon they are fleeing from; the beam's invisible, after all. Or it could be beamed down into an enclosure full of detainees, to "pacify" them and soften them up for "interrogation".

And I can buy a nail-gun fairly easily from a hardware store, with which I could put inch-long iron spikes into peoples' skulls...OR, y'know, fasten hardware-y stuff. The fact that a tool may be used for some purpose other than that for which it is intended does NOT change its usefulness when it is utilised correctly.

[Magus]

It seems I've unintentionally instigated some sort of discussion of how the US abuses power. This is not my intent - I'm merely concerned that nothing ever stays classified forever, especially if it's actively deployed. I'm mostly concerned with the general technology being used to develop torture devices by renegade third parties. I definitely recognize its usefulness in riot control or specialized combat, and expect the US government to use it responsibly. I doubt very much that "driving crowds into soldiers to "force" them to 'defend' themselves" will be likely application of this weapon.

[Stile]

*snip*

Hmm, pretty informative. My experience with all of this is the requisite training to know to secure all transmitters and radars before sticking my head up above the O4 level. (Lonestar too.. )

My background is more of a technician level than an engineer level. More of a "how to fix it" than know everything about how it works.

[Darth Servo]

Hurray. Let's start making some popcorn with the thing.

[darthbob88]

Hurray. Let's start making some popcorn with the thing.

This is no laughing matter, sonny Jim. Some kin of mine had a farm near the testing grounds for this thing, where they raised corn and cattle. Some joker decided he fancied popcorn, and turned the thing on the cornfields. Have you ever seen an acre of corn, almost 10,000 pounds, go up like that? The worst part happened after, though. The cornfield was slightly uphill from the cattle pasture, so the stuff rolled downhill mostly. The cattle thought it was snow, and froze to death in the middle of August.

[Darth Servo]

"sonny Jim" Haven't you ever seen the movie Real Genius?

[darthbob88]

"sonny Jim" Haven't you ever seen the movie Real Genius?

No, but after reading that, I see the relevance. Sweet, sweet revenge.

[Darth Servo]

"sonny Jim" Haven't you ever seen the movie Real Genius?

No, but after reading that, I see the relevance. Sweet, sweet revenge.

Well, you now have a homework assignment for this weekend. That movie is funny as hell.

[Lonestar]

Any open ( no cover ) place with walls or fences or dropoffs or ranks of soldiers on the edges not facing the weapon. That's another thought; we could use it to stampede crowds of people into soldiers who would be "forced" to open fire in "self defense". We could even make sure the embedded media is standing at the right angle to film the charging mob, but not see the weapon they are fleeing from; the beam's invisible, after all.

So when in recent American History (Hell, when ever) has the Military specifically cordoned off a crowd so they had no where to run so we can kill? Why are you suddenly expecting a change in tactics? Unless, of course, your default is that we do it shits and giggles.

Or it could be beamed down into an enclosure full of detainees, to "pacify" them and soften them up for "interrogation".

"Beamed down into an enclosure of Detainees". Okay, can anyone else explain to why it's a bad idea to have prisoners walking around in large groups? "Soften them up for Interrogation"...woohoo...so? Even if true that would be on a 1-by-1 basis. Despite what it says, I can't imagine a heat ray turned on a crowd for an extended period of time (say, the several hours it takes to interview detainees) without ill effects.

Of course, the assumption that we'd use it on crowds for "interrogation" purposes reveals that you are once more talking out of your ass.

In any event, if we want to break up a prison riot this may be better than Using a high pressure hose, which, having been on the recieving end of one during a force-protection training(when it wasn't turned all the way up) isn't too fun.


Addendum: As Molyneux has pointed out, this is all somethign of a non sequiter, because you can use pretty much anything in a way not intended for the purposes of torture. Castor Oil, anyone?

If people are fleeing in agony from this thing, I expect you'll see quite a few people trampled to death.

The description of the device in the article indicates you can "jump out" of the path easily.

Anyone hit by the beam immediately jumped out of its path because of the sudden blast of heat throughout the body. While the 130-degree heat was not painful, it was intense enough to make the participants think their clothes were about to ignite.

So, you can Jump out and immediately feel the effects stopping.

[Sarevok]

I recall reading somewhere that the microwave beam could be fatal in real world deployments. The beam heats metals to dangerous temperatures and so volunteers the beam was tested on were asked to remove spectacles. contact lenses and were checked for certain types of zippers. When used on a crowd contain all sorts of people some of them may have objects on them leading to injury the source argues. Is this correct ?

[MKSheppard]

So people might die from spontaneous explosions of their bomb vests.

[Lonestar]

I recall reading somewhere that the microwave beam could be fatal in real world deployments. The beam heats metals to dangerous temperatures and so volunteers the beam was tested on were asked to remove spectacles. contact lenses and were checked for certain types of zippers. When used on a crowd contain all sorts of people some of them may have objects on them leading to injury the source argues. Is this correct ?

....What??

[Lonestar]

....What??

*ahem*, to clarify, in the 'Gas Chamber' at bootcamp they made us remove glasses and Contact lenses too, so it could be the DoD default for non-lethal tests or an accepted risk.

[CJvR]

Nice to have something other than machineguns to break up violent riots. I imagine the civilian demand for this device will be higher than military demand.

[Aaron]

*ahem*, to clarify, in the 'Gas Chamber' at bootcamp they made us remove glasses and Contact lenses too, so it could be the DoD default for non-lethal tests or an accepted risk.

They have you remove contact lenses in the gas hut because the gas gets trapped between the lenses and your eye, causing damage.

[Melchior]

Right because the military is just full of cutthroats, murderers, and general sadists. You know generally we try and weed out those types of people.

Try and often fail, I suppose, given various incidents. If you were a sadist, wouldn't you like that kind of job? (and don't try to construct this as if I had said that you need to be a sadist to desire to be a soldier)

[Lonestar]

They have you remove contact lenses in the gas hut because the gas gets trapped between the lenses and your eye, causing damage.

I know, which is why I had the "May be default safety position" and "Accepted risks" in the response