Quin Gon and Palpatine

[Baal]

I have often wondered this and since I have read few of the Old Republic books I do not know if it is ever answered.

Did Palpatine have any control over which Jedi's were sent to Naboo? Palpatine certainly knew the Chancellor sent them per what he said to Amidala and it is possible that Palpatine actually orchestrated their sending.

Which leaves an interesting question. In my opinion the greatest real threat to the Sith was Qui Gon Jinn. Unlike the other JEdi he looked at the big picture and refused to live life as one of Yoda's little copycats.

Qui Gon was ready to throw out the code and try to do what was right. He stretched and expanded while the rest of the Jedi under the control of Yoda stayed stagnent.

So did Palpatine/Darth Sideous possibly know this of Qui Gon and thus arrange for him to be included in the Yaboo incident so as to have the best chance of knocking him off?

If you were to make Qui Gon the head of the order for a decent amount of time before any of the movies I think the Sith would have found a much more dangerous threat in the Jedi and probably would have failed in their attempt to overthrow the Republic.

Opinions?

[An Ancient]

It's a fair point actually, had Qui-Gon survived Anakin would've been far less likely to go dark-side, probably would've just offed Palps there and then, and its also highly possible that the Sith would not have been able to remain covert as long as they did.

[dworkin]

Palpatine's plan was pretty damn complete. He gave the Jedi the Holy War they had always wanted. Their enemies (non-living droids) were tailor made to sucker them in totally and they did.

If Qui-Gon (or a like minded Jedi) was in charge, the war would of dragged on longer killing off the best jedi warriors before Order 66 was implemented.

[Ted C]

If Darth Sideous' conversation with the TradeFed commanders early in TPM is any indication, Palpatine didn't know that the Chancellor had sent Jedi to settle the problem, let alone which ones. Darth Wong has a pretty good theory about Palpatine's probable plan in his discussion of TPM.

[Zac Naloen]

Palpatine's plan was pretty damn complete. He gave the Jedi the Holy War they had always wanted. Their enemies (non-living droids) were tailor made to sucker them in totally and they did.

If Qui-Gon (or a like minded Jedi) was in charge, the war would of dragged on longer killing off the best jedi warriors before Order 66 was implemented.

What???

Where on earth did you get the impression the Jedi wanted the war?

[Master_Baerne]

Seriously, the Jedi were pacifist do-gooders. War was not high on their agenda.

[nightmare]

If Palpatine had this sort of influence on the Chancellor already, he never would have needed to stage the Clone Wars. I also think you seriously overestimate what difference Qui-Gon could have made. Yoda and Mace were never lightweights, and you can't accuse Yoda of not looking at the whole picture. If anything, that's what he was best at.

It's easy to glorify the loner who walks against the main stream, but that doesn't make it true.

[Zac Naloen]

Qui-gons strengths lay in his philosophical beliefs regarding the force. The main influence (and probably only in my opinion) he would have had would have that Anakin would not have turned had he been trained by qui-gon.

His influence with the order is too minimal for anything beyond that.

[Darth Servo]

Qui-gon got killed by Darth Maul. There is no way he would be a real threat to the far more powerful Palpatine.

[An Ancient]

Qui-gons strengths lay in his philosophical beliefs regarding the force. The main influence (and probably only in my opinion) he would have had would have that Anakin would not have turned had he been trained by qui-gon.

His influence with the order is too minimal for anything beyond that.

True, but that is kinda the whole fulcrum isn't it? Even if everything else plays out exactly as before, when Palpatine says "I'm a Sith." A Qui-Gon trained Anakin would've either killed him then and there, or been stable enough to leave well enough alone in the Tower. Without Palpatine, there is no Order 66, the Jedi survive, the war ends.

[Ghost Rider]

Qui-gons strengths lay in his philosophical beliefs regarding the force. The main influence (and probably only in my opinion) he would have had would have that Anakin would not have turned had he been trained by qui-gon.

His influence with the order is too minimal for anything beyond that.

True, but that is kinda the whole fulcrum isn't it? Even if everything else plays out exactly as before, when Palpatine says "I'm a Sith." A Qui-Gon trained Anakin would've either killed him then and there, or been stable enough to leave well enough alone in the Tower. Without Palpatine, there is no Order 66, the Jedi survive, the war ends.

So how are we to come to this conclusion?

I mean we can spout that Qui Gon might've done better, but at the same time...no one had seen what the effect of Padme on Anakin would've done. And if anything that is what tipped Anakin over, not Obi Wan teaching him.

[Knife]

So how are we to come to this conclusion?

I mean we can spout that Qui Gon might've done better, but at the same time...no one had seen what the effect of Padme on Anakin would've done. And if anything that is what tipped Anakin over, not Obi Wan teaching him.

True, but Qui Gon seemed more compasionate than the other stock Jedi, from his treatment of Jar Jar and later slave Anakin (all the while Obi Wan bitching about both).

Anakin's biggest problem was that he did what he wanted and then felt guilty about it. Under Qui Gon, it's possible that some of those actions Anakin did do, would have been understood by Qui Gon and Anakin would't have had to fell guilty about them.

[Ghost Rider]

So how are we to come to this conclusion?

I mean we can spout that Qui Gon might've done better, but at the same time...no one had seen what the effect of Padme on Anakin would've done. And if anything that is what tipped Anakin over, not Obi Wan teaching him.

True, but Qui Gon seemed more compasionate than the other stock Jedi, from his treatment of Jar Jar and later slave Anakin (all the while Obi Wan bitching about both).

Anakin's biggest problem was that he did what he wanted and then felt guilty about it. Under Qui Gon, it's possible that some of those actions Anakin did do, would have been understood by Qui Gon and Anakin would't have had to fell guilty about them.

I can see Qui Gon being a better listener, and wouldn't complete spout off the byline of Council, but at the core of it...it's two things that drove Anakin.

Loss and fear. Unless Qui Gon can somehow stop Anakin's mother from dying and make sure that Palpatine doesn't initiate contact with Anakin, Anakin will likely be the same.

For as much as Obi Wan chided himself to being the fall of Anakin, the biggest influences on Anakin's fall were things completely out of his reach.

[dworkin]

What???

Where on earth did you get the impression the Jedi wanted the war?

Mainly from the ROTS novelisation, the section on how to create a Jedi Trap.

The Clone Wars were designed with the Jedi in mind. All their opponents are droids, so there were no qualms about killing sientient beings. They joined in right at the start at Geonosis. And the fight scenes showed them enjoying it (when they were winning).

Also there was the added thrill that they might get to fight a Sith, those legendary enemies of yore.

So, the Jedi were not wanting a war, per se. But they jumped in, kaftans and all when presented with one made just for them.

[Shadowtraveler]

I dunno. How can we be so certain as to how a Qui-gonn-trained Anakin would act? I mean, the only reason the Council let Anakin be trained in the first place was to honor the deceased Qui-gonn's last request. If he trained Anakin despite the will of the Council, there's a good chance they would have cast him out of the Order.

I mean, sure, Qui-gonn's a good teacher, but would it have been enough to curb Anakin's headstrongness? There's also the fact that they'd both be outcasts to consider.

[The Jazz Intern]

I mean, the only reason the Council let Anakin be trained in the first place was to honor the deceased Qui-gonn's last request.

no, that was because Obi Wan threatened to leave the jedi.

but on to the topic at hand:
I think that it's a fair point. Palpatine does seem pretty calm even as he hears that there are jedi on the scene. He's also a massive manipulator, being able to screw with Anakin's dreams, then turning him over. we only see him screw up against Mace Windu, really, and even then, he covers well.

[Shadowtraveler]

no, that was because Obi Wan threatened to leave the jedi.

Are you sure about that? I remember Yoda saying the council would let him train Anakin.

[Ghost Rider]

I mean, the only reason the Council let Anakin be trained in the first place was to honor the deceased Qui-gonn's last request.

no, that was because Obi Wan threatened to leave the jedi.

but on to the topic at hand:
I think that it's a fair point. Palpatine does seem pretty calm even as he hears that there are jedi on the scene. He's also a massive manipulator, being able to screw with Anakin's dreams, then turning him over. we only see him screw up against Mace Windu, really, and even then, he covers well.

Y'know before spewing bullshit, confirm your source.

Both the novel AND the movie go into that it's Qui-Gon's last wish, and Obi Wan was chosen because of that. Obi Wan never fucking once threatened to leave .

And oh yeah, unless you want to present evidence that Palpatine was behind Anakin's dreams, do go ahead...because as it stands they were accurate visions and had nothing to do with Palpatine.

[The Jazz Intern]

*snip with scissors*

Y'know before spewing bullshit, confirm your source.

Both the novel AND the movie go into that it's Qui-Gon's last wish, and Obi Wan was chosen because of that. Obi Wan never fucking once threatened to leave .

And oh yeah, unless you want to present evidence that Palpatine was behind Anakin's dreams, do go ahead...because as it stands they were accurate visions and had nothing to do with Palpatine.

sorry about the qui gon thing, it's been a while since I confirmed my sources.
I coulda swore there was a thing where it was concluded that Palpatine was screwing with Anakin's dreams. Sorry.

[Deathstalker]

Palps had to plan for Jedi involvement, why else train a pure killer like Maul. He may not have forseen Jedi interfering so early, but the whole purpose of the Jedi was to solve disputes and offer advice. Qiu-Gon seemed willing to hear the Trade Feds beef and may have been authorized to give concessions to end the blockade. Jedi invovlement was going to happen at some point, but I doubt Palps had a hand in choosing who would be sent. He probably assumed that second line Jedi would be sent, so no Yoda or Mace, and he figured Maul could deal with any Jedi the council sent.

[Darth Fanboy]

I actually think that if Qui Gon had survived and been the one to train Anakin, then there would have been a much greater chance of Anakin not falling to the Dark Side. Qui Gon was not a by the book Jedi and it is my belief that his teachings would have better prepared Anakin for dealing with reality better than the strict Jedi dogma preached by the Council.

The more I think about it, Qui Gon's surviving TPM would have set up AoTC to be truly excellent. Qui Gon is killed and Obi Wan would assume the job of teaching Anakin as the movie ends after Qui Gon is cut down by Dooku.

Addendum:

With regards to the OP. The back of my mind keeps thinking that it was all part of the machinations for Palpatine to find Anakin Skywalker, but I don't have anyway to back up that claim.

[Ghost Rider]

Addendum:

With regards to the OP. The back of my mind keeps thinking that it was all part of the machinations for Palpatine to find Anakin Skywalker, but I don't have anyway to back up that claim.

If we believe that Darth Plagueis had any part of Anakin's creation then Palpatine could have had some plan towards that effect.

As it stands, basically he saw Anakin as something extraordinary, and likely felt the power that Qui Gon mentioned and molded him the way he did. I mean it is a little odd that he takes interest in the boy after one feat.

[Sam Or I]

The more I think about it, Qui Gon's surviving TPM would have set up AoTC to be truly excellent. Qui Gon is killed and Obi Wan would assume the job of teaching Anakin as the movie ends after Qui Gon is cut down by Dooku.
.

I agree. I would see Qui Gon refusing to Fight his former master and letting himself be sliced down. (I am a self admitting Qui-Gon fan boy.)

[BrandonMustang]

So how are we to come to this conclusion?

I mean we can spout that Qui Gon might've done better, but at the same time...no one had seen what the effect of Padme on Anakin would've done. And if anything that is what tipped Anakin over, not Obi Wan teaching him.

True, but Qui Gon seemed more compasionate than the other stock Jedi, from his treatment of Jar Jar and later slave Anakin (all the while Obi Wan bitching about both).

Anakin's biggest problem was that he did what he wanted and then felt guilty about it. Under Qui Gon, it's possible that some of those actions Anakin did do, would have been understood by Qui Gon and Anakin would't have had to fell guilty about them.

I think it is worth noting that Qui Gon's death at the end of TPM changed Obi Wan a lot. Due to the intervals between the movies it is hard to know how much was age and experience, but his treatment of others and his approach to Jedi protocol changed drastically after the death of his mentor.

[An Ancient]

So how are we to come to this conclusion?

I mean we can spout that Qui Gon might've done better, but at the same time...no one had seen what the effect of Padme on Anakin would've done. And if anything that is what tipped Anakin over, not Obi Wan teaching him.

Qui-gon, however, would a) probably have found out, b) understood.

Also, bear in mind that Obi-Wan was less of a Jedi when he began training Anakin than Qui-Gon had been, and as such they pretty much, as the film and book says, became more like brothers, Qui-Gon would've been more of a father figure Anakin would've felt more comfortable confiding in. Obi-Wan also was somewhat idealistic about the Republic, which seems to have been semi-prevelant among the Jedi and part of the screen Palpatine used. I'd even go as far as saying some of that idealism rubbed off on Anakin, whereas Qui-Gon was a lot more pragmatic, and as such Anakin's own attitude would've been more level.