Moderator: Vympel
I'm gonna resort to the "willful denial" option!Darth Wong wrote:American Idol is the number one rated TV show. Why should anyone be surprised at any amount of stupidity they encounter in a sci-fi argument? The general population is full of idiots. Accept this.
You can claim willful denial given how much of the human population accepts a being created the world in seven days, and there was a worldwide flood and a wooden boat that carried two of every creature amongst other things?MagnusTheReD wrote:I'm gonna resort to the "willful denial" option!Darth Wong wrote:American Idol is the number one rated TV show. Why should anyone be surprised at any amount of stupidity they encounter in a sci-fi argument? The general population is full of idiots. Accept this.
I just can't accept that someone cab be THAT dumb!
It would slaughter my humble hope in the human race!
After all, he seems to be capable of forming sentences and writing without much grammar mistakes!
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Hat ... Range.htmlMSCG wrote:If their weapons are accurate enough. Maximum range for the Falcon's small quad laser seems to be about 200-500 meters.
Right, I know I always go for direct hits when I want to capture a ship rather than destroy it given the ship probably has the person on board I need alive to sign a treaty legitimizing my recent invasion of her territory.The cap ships, of course, ahve much longer ranges, probably a few dozen klicks (maximum range we've ever seen them engage in at all in the movies and novelizations). Even then, the Trade Federation droid gunners couldn't his a 76-meter long, shiny yacht with virtually no ECM capabilities that was right on top of them.
Another retard who thinks pointing out an exception overrides the general rule.However, the ST computers can be locked out efectively, as seen in episodes and in FIrst Contact.
Lando, ROTJ: "Well how could they be jamming us if they don't know <pause> that we're comming?"[asking about jamming]
Do you have specific passages, etc? Although I seem to remember something from the Battle of Yavin...Not sure, though.
And fininsh with that calculation. Would this idiot care to explain why vaporizing a person at a range of 3km should represent the amount of energy needed to vaporize...oh...I don't know...maybe...A HOUSE at that range?False. According to the movie novelization (and hence higher canon) the turbolaser blasts exchanged in the battle over Couruscant were 'powerful enough to vaporize small towns'. Of course, you have to define a small town. Since we're talkinrea of abog about American writers, we'll use the American definition. Let's say a circle with a diameter of 6 kilometers.
Let's then start by seeing how much energy it would take to vaporize someone standing at the edge of this town.
Maybe because they NEVER use wide beam to kill people?Who needs full auto when you can set your beam to a cone or a flat plane and kill everyone in front of you?
And we assume they ONLY used dinky little hand guns in that engagement?Furthermore, I might add that a small team armed only with phaser pistols wiped out hundreds (if not thousands) of enemy troops in the TOS episode "Omega Glory". Of course, they were primitives armed with short range weapons, but the mass charge tactics of the Clone Wars certainly wouldn't work against Federation ground troops.
And numberous canon events, "vaporizing" is clearly not meant literally. The pot in ST6, saying an asteroid should be "vaproized" in Rise, meaning break into pieces a centimeter in diameter, the metal shot in "Vengence Factor" which continued smoking AFTER the beam was shut off, anytime a human is vaporized on the show, etc.It says it can 'vaporize'.
Again, another "exception disproves the rule" idiot argument.Ah, this arguement. In fact, in a DS9 episode by the name of "Who Mourns for Morn" a character jumps into a packing crate to use as cover and is disconcerted to find phaser blasts coming through the sides.
Scorch marks that just HAPPEN to be indented?]They don't burn through them they just leave scorch marks on the walls. Or blow up control panels.
Then why were they never even SUGGESTED at TNG era ground combat engagements like Siege of AR558?They actually have artillery in the form of photon grenades and a photon grenade launcher (much like a mortar). Photon grenades can be used to either stun or kill and seem to pack quite a punch.
Regardless of how effective said shields may or may not be, they won't provide ANY protection when they aren't used.There is also evidence of personal and portable force fields (discussed in DS9) and used on screen in both movies and in several TV series. In addition, Federation troops do appear to wear some sort of armor (See DS9) that can at least absorb some of the energy fro ma disruptor shot.
Again, they aren't effective unless they are USED, which they have never been since or before STVIn Star Trek V Federation crewmembers also use portable blast shields ( much like moder day police tactical shields).
And are jammed by just about everything under the sun. IIRC, Worf's sense of smell provided better sensory information than Fed Equipment in "Descent"We have also seen them use binoculars, etc. In addition, they have the tricorder, which combines amnye elements of modern day GPS, tracking devices, sensors etc in to one neat little package.
And passes said information through their own personal filters of what someone NOT associated with the show THOUGHT the episodes were showing.All information on Memory-Alpha is taken from the movies and TV shows, hence it is canon.
Then its pointless to even mention it, isn't it?Memory-Beta includes information from liscensed but not canon novels, games, etc.
Said scaling done by an uneducated phone monkey. If you think thats reliable, I have this bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.In the Voyager episode "Rise" Voyager destroys a asteriod which (when measured by scaling from the torpedo used) appears to be 390 meters long and about 200-250 meters wide.
As pointed out above, the crew couldn't even agree on what their expectations were but the man saying "centimeter fragments" was the one reading the computer console while the one saying "vaporized" was the one talking out of surprise. Its a testament to this guy's idiocy that he things the latter is more reliable.It is not totally destroyed by the torpedo, but that is only because it was not (as expected by the crew) to be nickel-iron composite but was articially made with tritanium as well as the standrd nickel-iron composite (this implys that without the triatnium it would have been totally vaporized). If you do the math neccessary to figure out how much energy is needed to vaporize a asteriod aactually made of nickel-iron (as was expected by the crew) you arrive at a low-end yield of roughly 100 gigatons.
Even if we accept the wildly inflated 100GT photon torp, even a GCS has a maximum payload of 250 while SW ships can shoot thousands of its CANON TEXT 200GT TL shots.Even if we accept the widly inflated claim of 200 gigaton turbolaser shots, the phonto torpedo can compete with that quite easily (not to mention the quantum torpedo, which has roughly twice the power of a photon and is currently replacing the photon torpedo in Starfleet servce).
Never mind the fact that we see BLUE SKY in the senate scene which is supposedly the middle of the night. Really, how many REAL LIFE legislative bodies (Congress, Parliament, etc) meet in the middle of the night?Explaining the hyperdrive would take way too long, so here's a site that can:
[snip link to Rabid Stupid Asshole site]
I wonder if this idiot also thanks creationists for similarly damaging his brain.Much thanks to this site and its author for providing me with information and counters to the typical arguements presented by the pro-Wars side (including the detestable SD.net).
Irrelevant.dragoon1940 wrote:The same Curtis Saxon who thanks Wong of SD.net in the book for helping him out?
Claim 1: irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that they are CANON.The figures in that book are vastly over-rated (and sometimes contradicted) by actual canon information.
Except for that little "half the firepower of the imperial starfleet" statement.From all information coming from the movies and novelizations of the movies (which are higher 'canon') the firepower is never stated to be that immense.
He knows what a hiroshima level explosion would look like in space?In fact, we're talking hiroshima level explosions here.
Because this idiot knows how strong SW shields and hull material are. Right. In addition to the already mentioned fact of wanting to capture, not destroy the ship.If the main weapons of the Star Destroyers were that powerful then the Tantive IV would have been a quickly expanding cloud of gasses.
You could always point out that HE is referencing the "work" of an uneducated phone jocky.MagnusTheReD wrote:Although I find it somewhat insulting- does this guy takes me for a complete moron by posting such ridiculously stupid rebuttal?
He quotes Darkstar's scaling of the Asteroid in "Rise" so the answer to your (probably rhetorical) question is obviously "no"Batman wrote:That reminds me-dragoon90210 thinks conical or planar widebeam, even if we ever saw them kill anybody, are preferable to a simple continuous beam?
Does this guy have any idea how geometry works?
I'm putting that down to 'willful ignorance' and possibly ignorance of proper scaling (which is by no means a simple matter), but to be ignorant of geometry basics like the affected area (and therefore reduced intensity) that goes with widebeams?Darth Servo wrote: He quotes Darkstar's scaling of the Asteroid in "Rise" so the answer to your (probably rhetorical) question is obviously "no"
Wait a second- Coruscant got two suns?!Darth Servo wrote:Never mind that later in AOTC, we see precisely what scooter denies--Coruscant having two suns.
My appreciation to Batman and the others for their immense help with this thing! I don't think there is a way I could possibly say it better myself!ZyamaMaN, aka MagnusTheReD wrote:I can't believe you are hypocritical enough to mass-quote Darkstar's shitty site after condemning SD.net as biased!
"Indeed. Cloaking devices are never actually seen in the movies and/or novelizations. However, Needa infers that only larger ships can use them (or have the power to)."
So? Not overridden by higher canon. Blatantly false to boot as IIIRC the TPM novelization DOES mention Darth Maul's ship being cloaked.
"If their weapons are accurate enough. Maximum range for the Falcon's small quad laser seems to be about 200-500 meters. The cap ships, of course, have much longer ranges, probably a few dozen klicks (maximum range we've ever seen them engage in at all in the movies and novelizations)."
Blatant lie, as the battle in RotJ was at FAR longer ranges than that. Not that it matters in any way shape or form as the EU has LIGHTHOUR ranges for TLs and is not overridden by. Hell the constantly referred to and occasionally actually executed on-page orbital bombardments require 100s to 1000s of km ranges already. Plug in Wars ship accelerations and Trek spacewhales that manage to miss each other at WW2 dogfighting ranges...
"However, the ST computers can be locked out effectively, as seen in episodes and in FIrst Contact."
And as seen in countless OTHER episodes, it is ludicrously easy to circumvent their safety measures. Starfleet computer security makes Win95 look brilliant. Besides what happens when I BLOW UP the computer, which given the Starfleet adherence to the fundamental interconnectedness of all things, might happen via a phaser hit to the galleys?
"I fail to see how automation is a problem."
It isn't. Overcentralization, however, IS.
"There have been only a few examples of that working against the Federation's advantage."
Every single episode where some intruder or other managed to take over part if not all of the ship's systems is. Which is a staggering lot of them.
"Do you have specific passages, etc? Although I seem to remember something from the Battle of Yavin...Not sure, though."
Jamming so heavy it warped spacetime. Numerous mentions throughout the EU.
"False. According to the movie novelization (and hence higher canon) the turbolaser blasts exchanged in the battle over Coruscant were 'powerful enough to vaporize small towns'."
That involves Acclamators where, if you could be cared to elaborate? Canon composition of Wars small towns? Evidence that those were full power blasts?
In fact, the novelization also states that they were battling for many hours, their weapons were overheating, they couldn't use full power anyway.
"Of course, you have to define a small town. Since we're talkinrea of abog about American writers, we'll use the American definition. Let's say a circle with a diameter of 6 kilometers."
Or, we could do the REASONABLE thing and assume as they're writing about Star Wars, they're talking about a Star Wars small town.
Actually the REALLY reasonable thing would be to assume that was just a figure of speech but heaven forbid such a thing.
"...Snipping Darkstar's horribly useless calcs..."
Funny how he tries to calculate how much power do you need to vaporize a humen from six klicks away, instead of trying to determine the energy requirements to ACTUALLY vaporise a TOWN!
You know, including the buildings, roads, infrastructure, and large portions of the ground on which the town actually STANDS!
Not that any of it matters, since we have no proof at all that those are the maximum yields for SW weapons.
"So, your turbolaser blasts are in fact in the megaton range, not the gigaton as you like to claim. Even if we consider twenty years of tech advancement, I doubt the power would have increased much beyond 7 or 8 megatons."
Patently false once more as there is a) no evidence for those being full-power blasts, b)that being an actual quantified statement instead of a figure of speech, c)it's overridden by ESB LTL/MTL yields, d) AOTC ICS figures and e) simply downscaling from the Alderaan incident leave alone the literary EU figures.
"I again refer you to Memory Alpha, wherein all information is based entirely on the Star Trek canon. "
Why don't you quote me where Paramount rates that site in its canon policy, and were Wikipedia's assessment of that site's RELIABILITY does.
"Who needs full auto when you can set your beam to a cone or a flat plane and kill everyone in front of you? "
Oh yeah, because energy requirements for a narrow beam of energy are completely the same as for a wide cone of undetermined length!
And this is supported by the fact we only see it used over extremely short ranges and only on light stun setting.
"Furthermore, I might add that a small team armed only with phaser pistols wiped out hundreds (if not thousands) of enemy troops in the TOS episode "Omega Glory".
Of course, they were primitives armed with short range weapons, but the mass charge tactics of the Clone Wars certainly wouldn't work against Federation ground troops."
Evidence of phasers having any effect whatsoever on Clonetrooper armour BTW would be? Any evidence that mass charge is the only tactic they use? The DC-15 rifle has staggering maximum effective range of five klicks AND full auto- any reason to why would the clones charge the Feds when they can simply snipe from the distance, or use suppressive fire on the redshirts? That's the benefit of full auto, my friend- one man with an assault rifle can effectively hold down several enemies with semi auto rifles!
And don't forget that Imps got machineguns- the best way to maw on enemy infantry from a very long distance!
And if you have two machineguns with skilled crews, you can hold down entire enemy companies by yourself. Add to that a couple of good mortars and you get the ability to blow up your enemies while they're taking cover from your heavy suppressive fire- the ultimate infantry pwnage!
Oh and don't forget, the Empire has heavy artillery, air support, armored troop carriers, armored attack vehicles, biological and chemical warfare, etc...
And don't forget, since Clone/Storm troopers have sealed armor complete with life support and tolerance for facuum and outer space, Imps can just use chemical weapons directly over the battlefield without being worried about hurting their own troops!
This is a huge advantage! I don't see how Fed ground troops could actually survive the horrible onslaught which the Imperial ground force would unleash on them!
"It says it can 'vaporize'."
Which we have yet so see it do ONCE. Phasers have never vaporized anything in the entire history of Star Trek.
"Ah, this argument. In fact, in a DS9 episode by the name of "Who Mourns for Morn" a character jumps into a packing crate to use as cover and is disconcerted to find phaser blasts coming through the sides."
So it worked one throughout how many seasons worth of TNG and this evidence of that working reliably how?
Every time there is a firefight in ST we see people hide behind light cover, we see said light cover being shot at, and we never see any kind of damage caused to it!
If they would actually be able to shoot the enemy through the cover with higher setting, don't you think they'd do it?!
"They don't burn through them they just leave scorch marks on the walls. Or blow up control panels."
The bulkhead in ANH, the grating in the detention block, football-sized pits in Docking Bay 96's walls, but yeah, they only scorch stuff on the surface.
"They actually have artillery in the form of photon grenades and a photon grenade launcher (much like a mortar)."
Yeah, and they've used it how many times through ST? What gives you the idea that even if they still know how to produce it (which we have to reason to assume anyway), they could actually train their ground troops to use it in any reasonable timeframe? You know, it's hard to teach someone something when you have no teachers!
"Photon grenades can be used to either stun or kill and seem to pack quite a punch."
As evidenced by? The Klingon mortars in DS9 were apparently firing bags of flour. And they're going to live in the face of a real military why?
"There is also evidence of personal and portable force fields (discussed in DS9) and used on screen in both movies and in several TV series."
The resilience of which is? How much punish can it take before going down?
"In addition, Federation troops do appear to wear some sort of armor (See DS9) that can at least absorb some of the energy from a disruptor shot."
Again, how much energy would that be, given that disruptors rely on NDF just as phasers do?
"In Star Trek V Federation crewmembers also use portable blast shields ( much like moder day police tactical shields)."
Against people effectively hurling stones at them... Oh PLEASE!
"We have also seen them use binoculars, etc. In addition, they have the tricorder, which combines amnye elements of modern day GPS, tracking devices, sensors etc in to one neat little package."
And is an easily detected active sensor. A real gift for enemy artillery batteries.
They won't have much problems aiming their weapons, given that you provide them with your exact coordinates!
"All information on Memory-Alpha is taken from the movies and TV shows,"
Or so says Memory Alpha! Just because they CLAIM it is lifted straight from the episode doesn't mean it is.
"hence it is canon."
No it isn't, the information it's based on might be but that's it.
"To return to space combat for a moment:
In the Voyager episode "Rise" Voyager destroys a asteriod which (when measured by scaling from the torpedo used) appears to be 390 meters long and about 200-250 meters wide."
Which is suspect already thanks to it being damn near impossible to tell a) how far the torpedo is from the asteroid at any given time and b) it being flat out impossible to judge the size of the torpedo PERIOD thanks to the glow once it's underway.
"If you do the math necessary to figure out how much energy is needed to vaporize a asteroid actually made of nickel-iron (as was expected by the crew) you arrive at a low-end yield of roughly 100 gigatons."
Obviously you haven't done the math necessary, did you?
Even if we accept the completely unsupported size of apporx 400 meters in diameter, we get only 479.1 megatons! Two hundred time lower than Darkstar's shitty figures!
Seriously, man, stay away from that site- it rots your brain!
"Even if we accept the widely inflated claim of 200 gigaton turbolaser shots,"
Which are supported by both the AOTC ICS and downscaling from the first Death Star.
"the photon torpedo can compete with that quite easily"
No it couldn't even if we accept that completely unsupported yield because the vast majority of that yield would never impact the target in the first place- they aren't shaped charges you know...
Incidentally, a 100GT PT with 100% efficiency would require 4.6+ tons of reactant, yet they can apparently be moved by hand...
" (not to mention the quantum torpedo, which has roughly twice the power of a photon"
Which, again, is evidenced by nothing whatsoever.
"Explaining the hyperdrive would take way too long, so here's a site that can:"
Blatant lie.
You overlook the fact that it took SEVEN FREAKIN YEARS to Voyager to fly across one quadrant of Milky Way galaxy, while SW ships cross their galaxy in mere DAYS!
Thus trashing his mind-bogglingly stupid assertion.
Such speeds for SW are supported by numerous EU novels.
BTW, did you know that Darkstar believe that EU is not canon at all, despite being confronted by LucasArt officials telling him otherwise?
Another reason for you to be careful with that place.
Thanks, I'll use it in my next rebuttal.Darth Servo wrote:More on ranges: in TESB, Vader and General Veers discuss planetary bombardment indicating its possible and it requires ranges of ~40,000 km IIRC.
You would. I don't mind one bit, except for the aforementioned typos.General Schatten wrote:I think when he said you could use his argument, he meant in your own words and not word-for-word, however, I could be wrong.
TPM: Coruscant to Tatooine in under 12 hours.Batman wrote:and everybody feel free to correct me-when the movies consistently indicate FTL speeds in the 7 figure c range.
Initially I wanted to alter my version but I decided not to because of a)Batman's version is perfectly good- I don't think I could come up with anything more conclusive, b) I was late with my reply already, and since altering it would've taken me too much time, I was afraid this guy would claim that I ran away.General Schatten wrote:I think when he said you could use his argument, he meant in your own words and not word-for-word, however, I could be wrong.
In that case you're not much better at spellchecking than I am.MagnusTheReD wrote:But I did! I specifically checked it for typo's one more time before posting.Batman wrote:You could at least have corrected my typos, you know.
Either that or he used MS word.Batman wrote:In that case you're not much better at spellchecking than I am.MagnusTheReD wrote:But I did! I specifically checked it for typo's one more time before posting.Batman wrote:You could at least have corrected my typos, you know.
I'm reasonably certain even MS Word would have noticed that third I in IIRC.Darth Servo wrote: Either that or he used MS word.
I remember a scene from this Clone Wars cartoon:Darth Servo wrote:If the tard tries to quote Darkstar's idiocy about Stormtrooper armor not being sealed, show him this
No, DA.com forums are just broken. They won't correct a freakin half of the mistakes! And it don't recognize any acronims such as IIRC.Darth Servo wrote:Either that or he used MS word.Batman wrote:In that case you're not much better at spellchecking than I am.MagnusTheReD wrote: But I did! I specifically checked it for typo's one more time before posting.
