Disgruntled former Starfleet officer

[Ghost Rider]

I actually have a question for the panel...

If Star Trek went through the re-imagining process a la Battlestar Galactica, and Starfleet has a much better and more defined military, would fans young and old embrace it?

Trek, even back in the days of the TOS was not, and never has been a military show. If you go that route, just make a new show. In fact one would have to scrap immense parts of what made even TOS good, just to shoehorn a neutered and emasculated Wars show to do nothing but go with the saying "Less QQ more PewPew".

[Darkwyng]

I actually have a question for the panel...

If Star Trek went through the re-imagining process a la Battlestar Galactica, and Starfleet has a much better and more defined military, would fans young and old embrace it?

Trek, even back in the days of the TOS was not, and never has been a military show. If you go that route, just make a new show. In fact one would have to scrap immense parts of what made even TOS good, just to shoehorn a neutered and emasculated Wars show to do nothing but go with the saying "Less QQ more PewPew".

Interesting. I guess it's just bad writing that made it go downhill after Roddenberry passed on.

[Ghost Rider]

I actually have a question for the panel...

If Star Trek went through the re-imagining process a la Battlestar Galactica, and Starfleet has a much better and more defined military, would fans young and old embrace it?

Trek, even back in the days of the TOS was not, and never has been a military show. If you go that route, just make a new show. In fact one would have to scrap immense parts of what made even TOS good, just to shoehorn a neutered and emasculated Wars show to do nothing but go with the saying "Less QQ more PewPew".

Interesting. I guess it's just bad writing that made it go downhill after Roddenberry passed on.

Actually, it was failing harder while Roddenberry had even more control. TNG first seasons were pure Roddenberry, and most of TNG followed this pattern even after others were introduced.

In fact Trek was best when people could write things that was not trying to be the perfect utopia Gene wanted. Gene came up with a good idea(Literally man going to the stars and exploring), and he was a great seller of the show but his ideas beyond that as a writer and visionary were outright shit on many levels.

[Darkwyng]

Actually, it was failing harder while Roddenberry had even more control. TNG first seasons were pure Roddenberry, and most of TNG followed this pattern even after others were introduced.

In fact Trek was best when people could write things that was not trying to be the perfect utopia Gene wanted. Gene came up with a good idea(Literally man going to the stars and exploring), and he was a great seller of the show but his ideas beyond that as a writer and visionary were outright shit on many levels.

No wonder many Star Trek PBeM simulations either fail or just suck at trying to go back to Gene's ideas as a writer and visionary like you said. From how I see it, from Kirk and the TMP era movies, Star Trek (Starfleet) had a chance to beef up it's military capability since they were up against the Klingons at the time, and maybe keep it that way and still explore.

Starfleet is in two extremes. One extreme is that the ship's meant for science and scouting are ill-armed and equipped. The other biggest extreme is that their heavier-armed battleships and crusiers are considered Explorers and DO NOT have small ship escorting that ship.

If Starfleet becamoe more like a modern navy, forming battle groups around their big ships even during peacetime and not worry about scaring other species (which was a stigma placed by the writers), maybe their ship survivability can somewhat increase.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

From how I see it, from Kirk and the TMP era movies, Star Trek (Starfleet) had a chance to beef up it's military capability since they were up against the Klingons at the time, and maybe keep it that way and still explore.

From how I see it, the Federation didn't have the industrial/economic capacity to beef up its military.

[Darkwyng]

Which in any sense General, still is a grave mistake.

[Batman]

Which in any sense General, still is a grave mistake.

Oh really. Why don't you show that they
a)actually were in a position to IMPROVE on their capacities in any way, shape or form, and
b) had any NEED to do so.
The Federation economy little we saw of it seemed to be in decent shape, they were apparently expanding at whatever pace, and their military was able to stand up to whatever enemies they had.
I reiterate-even if they COULD ramp up their economy and industry to expand their military, which is far from a given, why should they BOTHER?

[The Cooler King]

Actually, it was failing harder while Roddenberry had even more control. TNG first seasons were pure Roddenberry, and most of TNG followed this pattern even after others were introduced.

In fact Trek was best when people could write things that was not trying to be the perfect utopia Gene wanted. Gene came up with a good idea(Literally man going to the stars and exploring), and he was a great seller of the show but his ideas beyond that as a writer and visionary were outright shit on many levels.

A quick little side note. Don't know if you already read it, but in Stephen King's overview of the horror genre, Danse Macabre, there's a small section on Harlan Ellison. King wrote that Ellison said of Roddenberry, "he can't write for sour owl shit". He also reports, after a hilarious discussion about ST:TMP, that Ellison said Roddenberry only had one major idea that he recycled, over and over again: the Enterprise goes out, finds God, and discovers that he's insane, a child, or both.

[Ghost Rider]

Actually, it was failing harder while Roddenberry had even more control. TNG first seasons were pure Roddenberry, and most of TNG followed this pattern even after others were introduced.

In fact Trek was best when people could write things that was not trying to be the perfect utopia Gene wanted. Gene came up with a good idea(Literally man going to the stars and exploring), and he was a great seller of the show but his ideas beyond that as a writer and visionary were outright shit on many levels.

A quick little side note. Don't know if you already read it, but in Stephen King's overview of the horror genre, Danse Macabre, there's a small section on Harlan Ellison. King wrote that Ellison said of Roddenberry, "he can't write for sour owl shit". He also reports, after a hilarious discussion about ST:TMP, that Ellison said Roddenberry only had one major idea that he recycled, over and over again: the Enterprise goes out, finds God, and discovers that he's insane, a child, or both.

I've read that and few other things, the largest being Ellison's story behind City.

Ellison has many words about Roddenberry. Given the vitrol, it's hard to say what is and isn't but honestly there is some truth to it given when there is something written of the man they claim he's some god, but then you witness his purest work and really TNG holds no candle to TOS.

[Darkwyng]

And you know what's really funny, to be successful in the Role-Playing sense of Star Trek, one must defy set conventions of canon Star Trek.

There is however another little "sub-universe", if I may say, of Star Trek. For a time Paramount licensed the now defunct FASA to make card games and other products. Unortunately, that licensing didn't last long. A lot of FASA's material was so outlandish, it would have given Wong more ammo to take on FASA's Star Trek.

However, there is ONE major entity that stood out from this sub-universe. The Starfleet Marine Corps. Sure, doesn't really have that much in material and background to them. If I may toot my own horn, I have reached the rank of Major General of the SFMC, all because I pretty much took everything I know as far as modern combat, consulted with my military buddies, implemented my knowledge, prayed it would hold-up to usual Trek BS, and then bang, Two stars on my neck and an entire Marine Division so elite that it would make Darth Vader have a hardon for.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Two stars on my neck and an entire Marine Division so elite that it would make Darth Vader have a hardon for.

Unless that Division has handguns that are about as devastating as an RPG upon impact (And machinegun versions too), he's just gonna bring down a single squad of 501st with E-Webs and wtfpwnzor you.

[The Cooler King]

Unortunately, that licensing didn't last long. A lot of FASA's material was so outlandish, it would have given Wong more ammo to take on FASA's Star Trek.

The rumor at the time FASA lost the license was that Roddenberry objected to the more militaristic depiction of Starfleet in the game. There was also that silliness with the gene-spliced "Klingons" (which, to my surprise, was semi-referenced in DS9 and Enterprise)

[Darth Wong]

Which in any sense General, still is a grave mistake.

Oh really. Why don't you show that they
a)actually were in a position to IMPROVE on their capacities in any way, shape or form, and
b) had any NEED to do so.
The Federation economy little we saw of it seemed to be in decent shape, they were apparently expanding at whatever pace, and their military was able to stand up to whatever enemies they had.
I reiterate-even if they COULD ramp up their economy and industry to expand their military, which is far from a given, why should they BOTHER?

Oh for fuck's sake, are you retarded? The only reason they were able to withstand their many enemies was writer's fiat. Their enemies invariably made incredibly stupid mistakes, and sheer dumb luck got them through. Saying that they did not have an inadequate military just because of this is like saying that Inspector Clouseau must have been competent because he always came out on top in the end.

[Batman]

Which in any sense General, still is a grave mistake.

Oh really. Why don't you show that they
a)actually were in a position to IMPROVE on their capacities in any way, shape or form, and
b) had any NEED to do so.
The Federation economy little we saw of it seemed to be in decent shape, they were apparently expanding at whatever pace, and their military was able to stand up to whatever enemies they had.
I reiterate-even if they COULD ramp up their economy and industry to expand their military, which is far from a given, why should they BOTHER?

Oh for fuck's sake, are you retarded? The only reason they were able to withstand their many enemies was writer's fiat. Their enemies invariably made incredibly stupid mistakes, and sheer dumb luck got them through. Saying that they did not have an inadequate military just because of this is like saying that Inspector Clouseau must have been competent because he always came out on top in the end.

And in-universe, that would be correct. If sheer dumb luck works each and every time that means you're doing right relying on it. Looks like your enemy consistently IS that fucking dumb.
Not that I see how the TOS Federation (which I thought was the one we were talking about) relied on the stupidity of its enemies anywhere NEAR as much as the TNG one did, and even if it did, lots more resources wouldn't necessarily have helped. How many ships you've got and how powerful they are doesn't mean dick if you're too stupid to USE them properly.
I never said Starfleet wasn't inadequate. (Though TOS Starfleet seemed to be doing OK).The problem, however, isn't lack of resources.

[Darkwyng]

And in-universe, that would be correct. If sheer dumb luck works each and every time that means you're doing right relying on it. Looks like your enemy consistently IS that fucking dumb.
Not that I see how the TOS Federation (which I thought was the one we were talking about) relied on the stupidity of its enemies anywhere NEAR as much as the TNG one did, and even if it did, lots more resources wouldn't necessarily have helped. How many ships you've got and how powerful they are doesn't mean dick if you're too stupid to USE them properly.
I never said Starfleet wasn't inadequate. (Though TOS Starfleet seemed to be doing OK).The problem, however, isn't lack of resources.

The Federation does have plenty of resources based on the miracle of replicator techonolgy. As our illustrious Darth Wong pointed out, the only reason Starfleet does not improve its technology is because their enemies keep fucking up and therefore Starfleet thinks it is doing the right thing.

[Darth Wong]

Saying that they did not have an inadequate military just because of this is like saying that Inspector Clouseau must have been competent because he always came out on top in the end.

And in-universe, that would be correct.

What the fuck do you think "competent" means? I assure you that it does not mean "consistently lucky in the past".

By your brainless logic, if I win a football game by having the ball bounce off the forehead of another player into my hands while my eyes are closed, then I must be a great football player. If it happens twice, then I must be a really great football player.

[Batman]

And in-universe, that would be correct. If sheer dumb luck works each and every time that means you're doing right relying on it. Looks like your enemy consistently IS that fucking dumb.
Not that I see how the TOS Federation (which I thought was the one we were talking about) relied on the stupidity of its enemies anywhere NEAR as much as the TNG one did, and even if it did, lots more resources wouldn't necessarily have helped. How many ships you've got and how powerful they are doesn't mean dick if you're too stupid to USE them properly.
I never said Starfleet wasn't inadequate. (Though TOS Starfleet seemed to be doing OK).The problem, however, isn't lack of resources.

The Federation does have plenty of resources based on the miracle of replicator techonolgy.

Complete non-sequitur. Replicators need raw materilal to work with and apparently don't work so hot at industrial applications, hence the continued need for for shipyards. IOW IF the Federation has sufficient material resources (which is NOT a given) it can produce plenty of consumer goods, doesn't do Starfleet a bit of good. They apparently still need actual industry for shipbuilding and stuff.

[Darkwyng]

Two stars on my neck and an entire Marine Division so elite that it would make Darth Vader have a hardon for.

Unless that Division has handguns that are about as devastating as an RPG upon impact (And machinegun versions too), he's just gonna bring down a single squad of 501st with E-Webs and wtfpwnzor you.

Actually no, they would pretty much be as even with the Stormtroopers. I do not rely on a weapon wheere if it is the only one I have left, I could turn it into an IES and then have no weapon to defend myself, or a weapon that would pretty much fail when I need it the most.

So yes, to go up against another genre, I would violate Star Trek canon like the Preacher's Horny Daughter.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Actually no, they would pretty much be as even with the Stormtroopers. I do not rely on a weapon wheere if it is the only one I have left, I could turn it into an IES and then have no weapon to defend myself, or a weapon that would pretty much fail when I need it the most.

So yes, to go up against another genre, I would violate Star Trek canon like the Preacher's Horny Daughter.

And what weapons would you be using that doesn't violate the limits of Trekkie Tech?

[MagnusTheReD]

Actually no, they would pretty much be as even with the Stormtroopers. I do not rely on a weapon wheere if it is the only one I have left, I could turn it into an IES and then have no weapon to defend myself, or a weapon that would pretty much fail when I need it the most.

So yes, to go up against another genre, I would violate Star Trek canon like the Preacher's Horny Daughter.

And what weapons would you be using that doesn't violate the limits of Trekkie Tech?

He could try this tetryon... whatever thingie we saw in Insurrection.
Those seem to be just powerful enough to penetrate Stormie armor.

[Batman]

He could try this tetryon... whatever thingie we saw in Insurrection.
Those seem to be just powerful enough to penetrate Stormie armor.

Except the Federation doesn't have it, its working mechanism is completely unknown, it takes AGES to trigger on a large scale apparently, and we haven't the foggiest how powerful it is so it may be completely unable to affect NBC-sealed troopers (all we saw it affect was a bunch of Romulans in funky robes at rather short range).

[Aaron]

Except the Federation doesn't have it, its working mechanism is completely unknown, it takes AGES to trigger on a large scale apparently, and we haven't the foggiest how powerful it is so it may be completely unable to affect NBC-sealed troopers (all we saw it affect was a bunch of Romulans in funky robes at rather short range).

No he's talking about the RPG thing Worf had in Insurrection, you know the one that only knocked over a bunch of Sona and slaves but didn't kill anyone.

[MagnusTheReD]

He could try this tetryon... whatever thingie we saw in Insurrection.
Those seem to be just powerful enough to penetrate Stormie armor.

Except the Federation doesn't have it, its working mechanism is completely unknown, it takes AGES to trigger on a large scale apparently, and we haven't the foggiest how powerful it is so it may be completely unable to affect NBC-sealed troopers (all we saw it affect was a bunch of Romulans in funky robes at rather short range).

Well, it's the best thing he got!
Of course, he could try making his men shooting the floor in front of the troopers in the hope they'll trip over the holes and break their necks!

[Ritterin Sophia]

So, the answer is to arm your men with the equivelance of an anti-personnel RPG warhead, which did shit all and merely knocked your enemies down with a hit less than a meter away? Can anyone calculate the range of it from that scene? I've yet to see a plausible scenario for any force using entirely Trek weapons to beat a numerically similair group of Stormtroopers.

[MagnusTheReD]

So, the answer is to arm your men with the equivelance of an anti-personnel RPG warhead, which did shit all and merely knocked your enemies down with a hit less than a meter away? Can anyone calculate the range of it from that scene? I've yet to see a plausible scenario for any force using entirely Trek weapons to beat a numerically similar group of Stormtroopers.

I didn't say it was plausible- I just said it was his best bet.
Those RPG things did look a bit more powerful than phasers...