Medieval 2 Battle Report & Strat Thread (Super pic hvy)

[Walsh]

Fucking hell. The Polish prince asked me to assassinate his father, so I got my nearest rank 10 assassin to take care of him, and he has a fucking 5% chance of success. Jesus fucking Christ.

On another note, King Rufus is nearly invincible. He has some +14 to his hit points from traits like 'brutally scarred', 'berserker', and the 'shieldbearer' retinue.

[Thirdfain]

I've played a lot of the original Medieval. How do Byzantine Infantry age? I recall, in the original, eventually relying largely on missile firepower, cavalry, and mercenaries because my stupid Byzantine Infantry had Poor Morale and couldn't hold the line against Chivalric infantry, never mind stop or even slow a later-game cavalry charge... Do the Byznatines finally get decent pike-units, for instance?

[Vympel]

Allow me, Resident Byzantine fanboy, to explain- it's a bit different in Medieval 2.

I've played a lot of the original Medieval. How do Byzantine Infantry age?

They're decent. "Byzantine Infantry" are built by the mid-to-high end city militia structure, and are equivalent in capability to "Dismounted Byzantine Lancers", the first type of heavy infantry you can build in your castles. It's a nice advantage to be able to build that kind of heavy infantry in your cities, which makes your cities hard to take by storm in comparison to other powers.

However, Byzantine Infantry/ Dismounted Byzantine Lancers (your field army equivalent) are a little slightly worse compared to the Heavy Infantry deployed by the West- Dismounted Feudal Knights, Dismounted Chivalric Knights, Armored Swordsmen, and so forth. However, you shouldn't have too much trouble leading them to victory over an enemy army.

So Medieval 2 adds Dismounted Latinikon (the game spells it Latinkon, but it's wrong)- Western Knights in Byzantine service, which is historical. Short of the Varangian Guard, they're the best heavy infantry you have, and make up the backbone of my armies in the late game.

I recall, in the original, eventually relying largely on missile firepower, cavalry, and mercenaries because my stupid Byzantine Infantry had Poor Morale

They did? I don't recall- anyway their morale isn't poor here.

and couldn't hold the line against Chivalric infantry

Dismounted Latinikon are not as good as Chivalric Infantry, but the difference is minor, so with proper preparation and tactics you can easily defeat them if you encounter them en masse.

never mind stop or even slow a later-game cavalry charge... Do the Byznatines finally get decent pike-units, for instance?

No, unfortunately. No pikes, halberds, nada. Sucks. They only get "Byzantine Spearmen", which in my experience are adequate for holding off cavalry if you use them right- ie. deploy them in mass or in a schiltrom. Compared to even other Spearmen in the game, they're quite crap in terms of attack and armor which is annoying.

Anyway- you will definitely find yourself relying on missile units, missile cavalry, and your heavy cavalry to win battles (except in seiges, of course- but in seiges the enemy defends with militia and militia are generally no match for either Dismounted Lancers or Dismounted Latinikon).

Luckily the missile units and missile cavalry are absolutely superb and the heavy cavalry is formidable if a bit old-fashioned. Trebizond Archers are easily available and have extremely high damage, rate of fire, and can hold their own in melee, while Byzantine Guard Archers are even more so (being the best)- with identical attack to both Byzantine Infantry and Dismounted Byzantine Lancers. They really kick ass.

Missile Cavalry you get Skythikon, Byzantine Cavalry, and Vardariotai. You get Vardariotai at the beginning of the game from basic castles and they rock fucking hard- so you really don't need Skythikon or Byzantien Cavalry unless you need to keep costs down. Their stats are better than Mongol Heavy Horse Archers in every single way- defence, attack (both missile and melee) and speed (they're fast moving). As I said above, you can have them empty their quarrels and then send them right into melee to assist and chase down the enemy army when they inevitably break.

Byzantine Lancers are so-so heavy cavalry- the good stuff that you use Latinikon and Kataphrakts (Kataphrakts have higher defence, Latinikon have higher attack, so I use both in my ideal army).

[Vympel]

Anyway, the original Medieval did some things better and some things worse. In the worse category- the (non-vanilla) unit selection for the Byzantines was shit. You got Byzantine Infantry, Varangian Guard, Kataphrakts, Byzantine Cavalry, Pronoia Allagion, Trebizond Archers, and that's pretty much it, IIRC.

In the better category, the starting position was much better. In M2TW, it's fucking 1080, and you can only build Peasants, Byzantine Spearmen, Skythikon, Byzantine Cavalry, and Vardariotai at the start. You've got no fucking roads in your regions, even. By the game's 2-year-per-turn system, you won't get Kataphrakts, Latinikon or Varangian Guard until close to the fucking 1300s.

EDIT: though to be honest, I've never missed their presence- I'm about to finish the game and only one of my armies has Dismounted Latinkons, I don't have any Varangian Guard at all (they're the ultimate unit built in cities), no Kataphrakts, and no Latinikon. I've relied entirely on both Mounted and Dismounted Byzantien Lancers for my infantry and heavy cavalry needs. Missile units goes without saying as being Byzantine Guard and Vardariotai.

Probably because you're facing off against the Turks and Egypt primarily- whoose infantry sucks so that you can kick their ass (in the early game, for the Turks, anyway- if they have Janissary Heavy Infantry and you havent' killed them yet, you're in for some pain!)

[NRS Guardian]

In my games I've noticed that if you target rams or siege towers with flaming arrows from your archers they're not much harder to kill than they were in RTW, but if you just let your towers shoot at them you have to wait for the towers to knock all 100% of the health off rather than letting fire do the work. A Mongol stack besieged Antioch recently, and they brought 3 rams and a tower. I had my best general, 3 archer militia, 2 spear militia, and 2 town militia in Antioch. I just targeted the tower and rams with flaming arrows and burned down all the siege equipment as it came within range. In that game I killed about a thousand Mongols.

[Darth Wong]

That's a problem with the factions that rely on crossbowmen; they can't use flaming arrows, so their chances of stopping siege engines are much lower. Luckily, they seem to get better militias; the swordsmen militia are actually quite good, and can hold their own against enemy infantry in a defensive situation.

[Thirdfain]

Does the ERE still get the normal gunpowder units? I have fond memories of watching the Egyptian armies march up-hill into a rain of shot and arrows, only to be charged at the last second by my long lines of infantry waiting behind the arquebusiers....

[Vympel]

Does the ERE still get the normal gunpowder units? I have fond memories of watching the Egyptian armies march up-hill into a rain of shot and arrows, only to be charged at the last second by my long lines of infantry waiting behind the arquebusiers....

No gunpowder units at all for the Byzantines. All you get is Bombards. No handgunners (not a loss, since they fucking suck and always will), no arquebusiers, no musketeers, no culverins, no cannons, no mortars, no serpentines, no basilisks, no grand bombards, no nothing.

Sucks. I swear it's such bullshit. If there's a mod out there that gives the Byzantines arquebusiers and the more advanced gunpowder seige weaponry, I'm going to get it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The only bloody reason why the Byzantines didn't have gunpowder was because they were dead broke no thanks to the 4th Crusade.

Hell, even the Hungarian who offered his services to the Mehmed II also offered to the Byzantines first, but they didn't have cash to pay for his services.

Damn game developers.

[Darth Wong]

Does the ERE still get the normal gunpowder units? I have fond memories of watching the Egyptian armies march up-hill into a rain of shot and arrows, only to be charged at the last second by my long lines of infantry waiting behind the arquebusiers....

No gunpowder units at all for the Byzantines. All you get is Bombards. No handgunners (not a loss, since they fucking suck and always will), no arquebusiers, no musketeers, no culverins, no cannons, no mortars, no serpentines, no basilisks, no grand bombards, no nothing.

Sucks. I swear it's such bullshit. If there's a mod out there that gives the Byzantines arquebusiers and the more advanced gunpowder seige weaponry, I'm going to get it.

Do you know how to set up mods? That mod is pretty easy, so I whipped one up. Mind you, it hasn't been tested, so I can't be 100% sure it works, but give it a shot and see how you like it:

http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/temp/Byza ... on_Mod.zip
http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/temp/Byzantium_Mod.zip

The first one cuts all building construction times in half and adds arquebusiers and culverins to Byzantium. The second one just adds arquebusiers and culverins to Byzantium. In theory, of course; as I said, I haven't actually tested these yet. But the changes are pretty simple if you're at all familiar with the structure of the TW config files. Just unzip them and copy the files into the data directory of your M2TW folder, being careful to back up the originals. And make sure you've got your shortcut set up to use the --io.file_first option and activate the mod. If you'd rather modify your own files by hand, I can walk you through the process.

[Vehrec]

I have to ask, why did you decide to cut the building times in half? Historically, they didn't exactly build that quickly anyways. 50-100 years for a Cathedral I recall. Even with the annoyance of building the various gunpowder buildings, why bother? Is it really that long?

[Darth Wong]

I have to ask, why did you decide to cut the building times in half? Historically, they didn't exactly build that quickly anyways. 50-100 years for a Cathedral I recall. Even with the annoyance of building the various gunpowder buildings, why bother? Is it really that long?

I'm impatient to get the game going.

[Vympel]

Do you know how to set up mods?

No idea

That mod is pretty easy, so I whipped one up. Mind you, it hasn't been tested, so I can't be 100% sure it works, but give it a shot and see how you like it:

http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/temp/Byza ... on_Mod.zip
http://bbs2.stardestroyer.net/temp/Byzantium_Mod.zip

The first one cuts all building construction times in half and adds arquebusiers and culverins to Byzantium. The second one just adds arquebusiers and culverins to Byzantium. In theory, of course; as I said, I haven't actually tested these yet. But the changes are pretty simple if you're at all familiar with the structure of the TW config files. Just unzip them and copy the files into the data directory of your M2TW folder, being careful to back up the originals. And make sure you've got your shortcut set up to use the --io.file_first option and activate the mod. If you'd rather modify your own files by hand, I can walk you through the process.

Awesome- thanks! Before I implement it, does it have effect on current games you have going, or only on fresh games you start after you make the modificaton (if the former, I probably will only come back to the Byzantines after I play another faction for a bit- playing them twice in a row has made me crave for some Catholic faction fun again).

I'm interested how you did it ie. did you enable the more advanced cannon buildings after the Gunsmith, and how does the game know which skin to use for the cannon-dudes and arquebusiers?

As for halving building times- is there a way to have it only for your faction and the other factions can go to hell?

EDIT: looking at the files- I see what you did re: skin for cannon-dudes etc. Straightforward. I wonder if I could make the culverin crew the same as other Byzantium seige crew (curious, they're all named differently.)

[Darth Wong]

It should affect existing savegames retroactively. In order to install M2TW mods, you just copy the files into the data directory and then add the --io.file_first parameter to the shortcut. That will tell the M2TW executable to use unpacked files rather than packed files.

Note: I've never tried doing this without running the unpacker script first (this came along with the first official patch). I don't know if it works if you've never run the unpacker script, but if it doesn't, then run the unpacker script and then copy the new files into the data directory again.

As for the build times, you could do that but it would be a pain in the ass, and a lot more work than the simple find/replace operation that I used.

[Vympel]

Well, I've just finished the game and intend to keep on playing- Milan, The Holy Roman Empire, Hungary, Poland, Russia, Denmark, England, Scotland, Portugal, Spain, the entire Mongol Horde (who've been aimlessly wondering around Russia doing absolutely nothing- great AI ... ) are all still in play and I intend to take them all out.

The Papal States still have Tripoli, but it's going to be taken.

Just a mini-rant- the life expectancies of sovereigns in this game are frankly, quite stupid. This may sound like a rough analogy (or it may not, stop me if I'm wrong)- but Roman Emperors, when they weren't assassinated, lived well into their seventies. Often. And we're supposed to believe that the sovereigns of Europe all universally were about to die at 60? Come the fuck off it. Tiberius still had, what, 16 years of life left in him when he was fucking 60.

[PeZook]

Just a mini-rant- the life expectancies of sovereigns in this game are frankly, quite stupid. This may sound like a rough analogy (or it may not, stop me if I'm wrong)- but Roman Emperors, when they weren't assassinated, lived well into their seventies. Often. And we're supposed to believe that the sovereigns of Europe all universally were about to die at 60? Come the fuck off it. Tiberius still had, what, 16 years of life left in him when he was fucking 60.

Yeah, but Romans had healthy opinions on things like bathing.

For me it's variable - one of my kings lived untill he was 70 and kept kicking ass. God, I have to get back to my game...there's still so much to do!

By the way, how's the gunpowder unit mod working out for you? I'd like to give Poland and other countries the full range of gun units, because I find it idiotic that for some reason, Poland never invented culverins or muskets, ever.

[Count Dooku]

I'm on my first campaign (as England), and I'm a little confused about a few things. I've been at war with Milan for over 50 turns! They've been ex-communicated, and they're at war with two of my allies (France and Spain). They've sieged my cities and castles more than half-a-dozen times, and they've lost every time. Not only that, but I've defeated them in the open field on several occasions, and I have yet to lose.

They've been using entirely too many cross-bowman, and it's only been the last few battles that I've encountered any heavy infantry. My question is, why do they keep wanting my to become a vassal if they've had absolutely no sucess against me or France (they've almost completely rolled over Spain).

I recently took Angered, and when I took it, it was nearly as powerful as any castle can be (I've since made it so). It is currently under siege, and I've only got a general, one full unit of mailed knights, three units of long-bowman, two units of billman, and and three units of heavy infantry. My attackers have a combined force of well over three-thousand. From the looks of my castle, the outer wall is HUGE! I'm considering pulling everyone back to the square, and defend myself there. My long-bowman will fire-down on those trying to get through the final gate, while my heavy infantry will chop down any who actually make it through. I'm planning on sending my cavalry through the town to run down any lone units. Have any of you sucessfully completed such a defense? I REALLY don't want to lose this place. It will be an absolute pain in the ass to take back. Suggestions are always welcome.

[Darth Wong]

Defense against a numerically superior enemy is all about whittling down their numbers. Keep light infantry (eg- missile units) on or near the outer walls, in order to keep the defense towers active and firing while they approach. Once it looks like they're in position to get their men on the walls, pull back your own men to the second wall and repeat. Once they breach the second wall, pull back your men to the third wall and repeat again. When they breach the third wall, then you make your stand at the city square with your heavy infantry. And make sure the battle time limit is on. No reason to give them infinite time to take your castle. The idea is to delay them and give your defense towers time to exhaust them and whittle down their numbers before the final confrontation in the square.

[Count Dooku]

Defense against a numerically superior enemy is all about whittling down their numbers. Keep light infantry (eg- missile units) on or near the outer walls, in order to keep the defense towers active and firing while they approach. Once it looks like they're in position to get their men on the walls, pull back your own men to the second wall and repeat. Once they breach the second wall, pull back your men to the third wall and repeat again. When they breach the third wall, then you make your stand at the city square with your heavy infantry. And make sure the battle time limit is on. No reason to give them infinite time to take your castle. The idea is to delay them and give your defense towers time to exhaust them and whittle down their numbers before the final confrontation in the square.

Fantastic! I sure hope my Long-bowman can get from wall to wall fast enough. Will the second army of reinforcements come at the same time, and attack at the same place, or will they come later? I've never had to deal with reinforcements during a castle seige before...

[Alferd Packer]

There can only be 20 units worth of enemies on the screen at once. As you destroy/rout the main army, they'll come into the fight, unit by unit.

Also, another tip: plant the longbowmen's stakes in front of a gate! When they come rushing through, en masse, they're going to get slowed down and hosed by your longbowmen/towers.

Also, if you've gotten ballista towers up, have as many of them firing as possible. They're incredibly accurate and do tons of damage to siege equipment (You should not expect any siege towers to survive the trip to your walls, leaving you to worry primarily about rams/ladders).

Also, aside from the gates, the enemy can get to the inner walls from the outer walls sometimes. Identify the towers where the first and second walls meet and get your best infantry ready there.

If you hold them at this second wall, you have them beat. Any rams they bring up to knock down your second gate will be damaged already and promptly destroyed by the second wall's ballista towers (assuming it can get past the spikes you placed in front of the wall...same goes for ladders). All the while, your longbowmen should be firing, your infantry should be holding the tower against theirs, and your ballista towers will pound away at everything else.

As soon as they stop attacking you at the second wall/first wall tower, take a unit and rush down to the gatehouse to get it firing again (or as close as you can safely. Now you have defenses capable of whittling away at the reinforcements as needed. When the reinforcements arrive, retreat back to the second wall ahead of them, and do the same thing as you did with the main army. Eventually, the timer will run out, and you'll have a chance to repair as needed, and stock your place with fresh units. Get more longbowmen!

[Vympel]

Yeah, but Romans had healthy opinions on things like bathing.

For me it's variable - one of my kings lived untill he was 70 and kept kicking ass. God, I have to get back to my game...there's still so much to do!

I've yet to see one of my generals live beyond 63. Normally they're gone at 60-61. It's ridiculous.

By the way, how's the gunpowder unit mod working out for you? I'd like to give Poland and other countries the full range of gun units, because I find it idiotic that for some reason, Poland never invented culverins or muskets, ever.

I haven't tried it yet- since I've finished the game I may try it out tonight and see what's what.

Poland has no culverins? Eh? I thought it did ...

They've been using entirely too many cross-bowman

Yeah, Milan spams Pavise Crossbowmen, it's absurd. It results in unbalanced armies that are at once a bitch to destroy with infantry because of the psychological block I have at sending infantry into a hail of crossbow bolts, but easy to wipe out with cavarly (though they still, IMO, take entirely too many casualties when charging). Pavise Crossbowmen's stats are too high.

[Count Dooku]

Well, just a few moments ago, I sucessfully defended Angered, but it was very close. I was so ready to try the various tactics you guys mentioned, that I completely forgot to turn on the battle timer. My archers fired away at the enemy, while I kept my cavalry running out and attempting to entice the enemy to follow me closer. A few units would follow me half-way back to the castle, and then return to their place in the greater formation. I actually got quite good at this, and as my archers ran dangerously low on arrows, I had one of my units of billman attack the spearman near the two catipults. Simultaneously, I sent my only unit of mailed knights out and around the army, and as soon as the billman got the spearman to charge (even if it was only part of the way back to the castle), my mailed knights came from behind and destroyed their only seige weapons. They were eventually encircled, and wiped out, but they did their job.

With no way into the castle, and no hope of victory for me, I was forced to quit the battle. The battle was a draw (hey, I said I defended it, not beat the attacking army). This will, however, give me turn I need to bring an extremely large army over from Paris (which was already en-route). I'll attack my attackers with it, and I hope for nothin but good things!

[PeZook]

I haven't tried it yet- since I've finished the game I may try it out tonight and see what's what.

Poland has no culverins? Eh? I thought it did ...

I'll have to check on this, but I'm reasonably sure they got buttfucked and denied one of the crucial cannon units.

[Vympel]

Really, cannons and arquebusiers and such should be universally available to all factions in much the same way as ballistae, catapults and trebuchets are (the original Medieval also had Mangonels, but anyway). I don't see why they play favorites like that. Sure, make Basilisks and Monster Bombards and such faction specific, but that's it.

Anyway- I've finished the game and am now on a conquest spree. I've modified my goal of recreating the Roman Empire at its height (ie. the Emperor Trajan) somewhat- I won't stop my wars when I reach the relevant frontier- I'll only stop if the enemy in question asks for peace.

Not once in my game have I attacked anyone except the Turks. They've always attacked me first! And they rarely ask for peace. I've destroyed the Turks, Egypt, Sicily, Venice, and the Papacy (ie. taken all their territory). I'm at war with the Holy Roman Empire, Spain, Hungary, and the Papacy (naturally). France (what's left of it), England, Scotland Portugal, the Moors, Poland, and the Rus are all neutral + trade rights.

So I'm sweeping up through Germania and Gaul right now, and I'm amazed at how many castles there are. You really don't need that many. They're useful for replenishing your armies on the march, though, so I've not converted many of them to cities as is my usual practice.

I also landed an army in Spain, taking Valencia. Things are coming along nicely. I've got full stack armies coming out of my ears, and no shortage of targets to throw them at. I'm also making 100,000 florin profits per turn, and not spending even half of it even with full building queues.

Of course, Black Plague hasn't hit yet.

The Mongols finally arrived, attacking Kiev- it will be awesome to finish my conquest of Europe and then swing all the stacks East and throw down with the Mongols out in the open

Speaking of the conquest of Europe- I plan to take every single city of the British Isles in one turn- I'll send a huge fleet and land full stacks right next to every single city. It'll be awesome. Needlessly grandiose, but awesome.

The Moors and maybe the Rus may very well be the only factions that survive for long- the former because Timbuktu is fricking far, the latter for much the same reason. They'll all die in the end though ...

[Darth Wong]

Speaking of faction favouritism, I don't recall if I've mentioned this before, but the worst example is in the New World. The Spaniards and Portuguese can make Conquistadores (both mounted and dismounted) at any settlement (either city or castle) which has reached at least "small town" size. Conquistadores have almost identical unit stats to English armoured swordsmen. So this basically means that you can recruit tough professional troops from any settlement in the New World.

Meanwhile, every other faction has to take small towns and slowly build them up to the point where they can make decent troops: a process which basically takes you till nearly the end of the game even if you rush over to the New World the moment it becomes available.