Stocking/Building A Nuclear Fallout Shelter

[Vyraeth]

Afternoon!

I am working on a story that revolves around the occupants of a fallout shelter, and their life after a period of nuclear warfare and I want to give my story a real sense of realism and authenticity (barring the improbability of any form of survivable nuclear warfare in the first place), so I have certain questions that I thought various knowledgeable people on this forum may be able to answer.

Moderators: If this thread is in an inappropriate forum, I apologize, and please move it accordingly.

Questions:

1) What sort of lighting (except flashlights and other small scale lighting devices) would you use in a nuclear fallout shouter? To be specific, are there perhaps industry-grade lamps with a certain bulb that have a long life and provide ample light?

2) What sort of food would you stock? I think canned food is an obvious choice, and certainly dry foods, but are there any specifics, or essentials that a shelter would NEED to have?

3) What firearms would you stock? Where would you store them?

4) Would you have an electricity generator? If so, what model, how much power would it be capable of providing, and what would it be used for.

5) Is there anything else you would like to add? Perhaps you've seen a recurrent problem in the way these scenarios are generally presented in fiction that's irked you?

6) Falling off of 5, a bit, is there a SOMEWHAT plausible way that a nuclear conflict could occur -- large enough to wipe out the central government of the United States, but not so large as to make life impossible (I realize how absurd that may sound, believe me).

-- I have my own idea in mind, but since we have many people fluent in science on this board, I see no reason not to take their knowledgeable opinion and run with it or refine my own idea based on new information.

Lastly, if you choose to help me by replying, thanks in advance and please leave your real name (or mail it to me at ram77@pitt.edu) so that I may properly acknowledge you for your ideas. If desired, I'll also send you a copy of the story once it's completed.

Have a good day!

[K. A. Pital]

I know lots about Russian nuclear shelter complements and technology, so I could give a few clues. But not for brands of lamps in America, obviously. Look for some construction normatives on American anti-WMD shelters, I think those should be in the internet (google) or in the nearest library. Beause that's what we have in Russia.

What sort of lighting (except flashlights and other small scale lighting devices) would you use in a nuclear fallout shouter?

For shelters with diesel-electro-stations, you use emergency ligh long-endurance light bulbs (kinda like the red lightning bulbs used in underground objects). For shelters without DES, you use only local lightning (flashlights, accumulator lights, etc.).

What sort of food would you stock? I think canned food is an obvious choice, and certainly dry foods, but are there any specifics, or essentials that a shelter would NEED to have?

Again, don't know about american standards and normatives (you better look that up, man), but our standards have 2-day food supplementation norm for each sheltered person, all stored in 1 room per 600 sheltered people (projected). Canned and dried foods are listed in the norms on shelter supply, but they change slightly each year in the US I think, since it changes contractors for this stuff. In the USSR, it also changed but slowly, since main food contractors for the shelter objects remained the same.

What firearms would you stock?

Firearms aren't pre-stocked, as far as I know.

Would you have an electricity generator? If so, what model, how much power would it be capable of providing, and what would it be used for.

Large-scale shelters require diesel generators with a few-week operating resource (in fuel) per norm, to power lightning, air cleaning vents, etc.

Perhaps you've seen a recurrent problem in the way these scenarios are generally presented in fiction that's irked you?

Yes. Most who write about nuclear shelters either played dumb PC games or just pulled stuff out of their ass. I have rarely seen a person who has a comprehension of nuclear shelter normatives and the constraints which this puts on shelter survival.

Falling off of 5, a bit, is there a SOMEWHAT plausible way that a nuclear conflict could occur -- large enough to wipe out the central government of the United States, but not so large as to make life impossible

That doesn't sound absurd. An all-out nuclear conflict with 10 GT detonations over the world would not make life extinct. In fact, it would only badly cripple all human civilization. So, any scenario. The most plausible - nuclear escalation with one of the rogue Arab states, e.g. Iran.

P.S. My nick is my real name.

[aerius]

How big is this fallout shelter and how many people is it supposed to hold? Something for a family of 4 is going to be very different than a shelter that has to hold tens of people like a local area or community shelter.

[Deathstalker]

I can help, as I have an interest in survival preparations because of some of the RPG games I play.

Some links

General knowledge

Some more specific info

1) What sort of lighting (except flashlights and other small scale lighting devices) would you use in a nuclear fallout shouter? To be specific, are there perhaps industry-grade lamps with a certain bulb that have a long life and provide ample light?

There are a number of ways to generate electricty, but it would have to be rationed like everything else. I believe there are some new bulbs on the market designed to use less power. Kerosene lamps filled with homemade alchol can be used to help reduce electicty use.

2) What sort of food would you stock? I think canned food is an obvious choice, and certainly dry foods, but are there any specifics, or essentials that a shelter would NEED to have?

The second site above has ideas for food storage. Need the staples and variety, and the means to grow more. Unless you have a really big space, stored food will run out and need to be replenished.

3) What firearms would you stock? Where would you store them?

Volumes have been written about this. It comes down to personal choice and what you a re comfortable using. If you don't have time to train consitently before the nukes fall, then you may want to stick with shotguns for personal defence, and some hunting rifles for hunting and long range defence. There will be time to train after the nukes fall, but immediate threats may have to be dealt with. If you have time, learning how to use handguns and long guns like Mini-14s, M-16 and its variations, older M-1s or any number of domestic or foriegn guns. Goes without saying that ammo and spare parts are needed.

4) Would you have an electricity generator? If so, what model, how much power would it be capable of providing, and what would it be used for.

There are many commercial models avaialble, five minutes on the net will
reveal a number of makes and models. Honda makes reliable home use models, and Caterpillar makes large commercial use models.

5) Is there anything else you would like to add? Perhaps you've seen a recurrent problem in the way these scenarios are generally presented in fiction that's irked you?

Everyone is former Rambo/super commando or some far right white supremisct racist fuckhole. Very rarley do you see just an average person, who for whatever reason decided to make a few plans
in case the worst happens. I'm running an PBEm game witht he premisce that a group of people pool resources to build a survival shelter.

6) Falling off of 5, a bit, is there a SOMEWHAT plausible way that a nuclear conflict could occur -- large enough to wipe out the central government of the United States, but not so large as to make life impossible (I realize how absurd that may sound, believe me).

The first link debunks some common myths about nuclear war. 9/11 was bad, multiplied ten times it would have been really bad but recovarble. A couple of dozen nuke hits could overwhelm the US's abiltiy to deal with the aftermath. It is what happens immediatly after the nukes fall that is the most dangerous. The cops and military can't be everywhere at once, and you;ll see the best and worst of human society come out after such a disaster.


If you want to make it fairly realistic, have a budget. This is the premise of my game. My character and my players characters have average jobs, with mortgages, spouses, kids car payments etc. I made my character a former soldier, who leaves the service to run the family accounting firm. I decided he would be married and have a couple of kids. He makes a reasonable income somwhere in the 200k range. The understanding he has with his wife is that she doens't mind his hobby, as long as the kids can attend private school and have money for vacations. We decided on a first year budget of 30-40K and it may fo up or down in the next game year.

[Broomstick]

My thoughts, which others may or may not see flaws in.

You did not specify how large this shelter would be - as pointed out, a shelter for a small family will differ markedly from a shelter for a community of a couple hundred people.

I will proceed under the assumption this is for a small family and intended to be first for fallout then for survival.

1) What sort of lighting (except flashlights and other small scale lighting devices) would you use in a nuclear fallout shouter? To be specific, are there perhaps industry-grade lamps with a certain bulb that have a long life and provide ample light?

There are flashlights, small lamps, and radios that run on handcrank power. There's a lot to be said for such devices, particularly mechanically operated flashlights using LED light sources.

I would have a mix of handcrank and actual battery-operated devices. There are batteries that do not become active until twisted, designed for long-term storage in survival gear kits. There's a lot to be said for them, too, even if they are more expensive than the batteries we're familar with.

In an enclosed shelter with limited ventilation - and an effective fallout shelter has limited air exchange with the outside - you don't want to burn anything. However, post-emergence a store of kerosene or other lamp oil, lamps, and candles would be very useful.

2) What sort of food would you stock? I think canned food is an obvious choice, and certainly dry foods, but are there any specifics, or essentials that a shelter would NEED to have?

You need sealed water, too. LOTS of it. If there's fallout you'll need supplies for a couple weeks for everyone expected to use the shelter, plus some extra to cover demands from injury, illness, and possible radiation sickness which may occur to greater or lesser degree no matter how careful you are.

You need the macro-nutrients - protein, fats, and carbs. That means canned meat and vegetables. Preferably things you can choke down without cooking so you don't have to stock fuel or contaminate your air supply.

Longterm - vitamin C. Actually, multi-vitamins are nice, but it's C that your body runs low on first. A stock of C will keep scurvy away until new crops come in or you figure out wild sources of food in your neighborhood post-emergence. This may make a huge difference in your health and survival in 3 months to a year or more out from the disaster.

For radiation exposure, a source of uncomtaminated iodine will help protect your thyroid. The idea is to flood the body with unradioactive iodine so it doesn't take up any radioactive bits from air, water, or food. You can get this in pill form or, if you're like me and eat sea vegetables, a stock of dried edible seaweed. The bonus to the latter is that some varieties are palatable enough to be eaten as a snack or added to other food, and being dried, it keeps a long, long time.

Note that this does NOT in any way make you immune to radiation or mitigate sickness induced from fallout or non-iodine isotopes. It just happens that this is a way to protect one organ of the body. It will do nothing for the rest of your system (well, help prevent goiter, too).

3) What firearms would you stock? Where would you store them?

I would only stock firearms if I knew how to use them.

Firearms would ideally be kept secured in the shelter itself, along with ammunition, cleaning supplies, spare parts, and any and all other necessities.

Handguns are really only good for defending against nearby humans, and even for that they are imperfect. Rifles will not only protect against maraunding fellow survivors, they can also be used effectively for hunting food later on. Shotguns likewise, with the added feature that aim is not so critical. I'd look for models with a reputation for durability more so than extreme accuracy, fancy scopes, or other froo-froo. You need something that will survive rought treatement and keep working.

If you're in to that sort of thing, a muzzle-loading black powder gun might be your best bet long term, as making black powder does not require sophisticated technology. Basically, if you've got what the American frontiersman used in the 1700's you'll be able to maintain it even with a fairly low level of tech.

Other options include things like hunting bows, good sturdy knives (dual use items, those), and the like. Remember some means to sharpen knives. Remember - anything you choose may need to last for decades of hard use.

4) Would you have an electricity generator? If so, what model, how much power would it be capable of providing, and what would it be used for.

The problem with a generator is that once you're out of fuel it no longer works. Ideal would be a windmill or small waterwheel - petroleum supplies are SURE to be interrupted! Otherwise, spend the money on more water/food supplies, medical stuff, or arms.

5) Is there anything else you would like to add? Perhaps you've seen a recurrent problem in the way these scenarios are generally presented in fiction that's irked you?

One issue that I've seen - or rather, haven't seen - is that of menstruation. While I have no doubt there will be men-only pockets of survivors, many groups will have women. Women bleed once a month, assuming some health. I only recall one author making provisions for that occurance (Heinlein, of all people).

Tampons are good in many ways, however, pads are another multi-use item. In addition to that "monthly time", they ALSO can be used to staunch bleeding in severe wounds. Soak them in flammable liquid and tie them to a stick they make reasonable torches. Pads are better for post-pregnancy bleeding, which, along with childbirth, is an issue that might come up.

Of course, eventually they'll run out. Ever wonder what women used before commercially produced products? Rags. Hence "being on the rag". Rags are another multi-use item - bandages, clothing patches, padding, slings, ties...

Then there is santitation. Toilet paper. Thick trashbags with good ties and bucket will do for a couple of weeks of fallout protection, after which you may get best use from a pit latrine - requires shovel, muscle, and at a least a couple boards. A supply of soap and disinfectant is also essential. Soap should be as multi-use as possible. Bleach is a good disinfectant and cheap. So is alcohol. Some sterile water for washing out wounds when boiling water is not feasible might be a good investment.

So would EMT training. Someone serious enought about survival to build such a shelter is likely to take an EMT course. You will, after all, have to provide your own medical care in such a scenario. Advanced first aid training could be a lifesaver.

That's all I can think of off-hand. You'll want to emphasize multi-use items for sure.

[Coyote]

Hooking up a generator to an excersise bicycle not only provides fuel-less energy, it also gives cooped-up people some excersise. Hand cranked and grip-cranked flashlights are good, as mentioned.

Psychology is important, too. A well-stocked library or some long-term board games can help-- stuff like "Monopoly" that can go on for hours or even days. Laptops and computer games or TVs and DVDs are good only if you have an answer to the power situation.

Take a look at some of the articles written about long-term science research bases at Antarctica's Ross Ice Shelf or McMurdo Station for long-term, elaborate solutions to isolated living where outside environments are hostile. But the most important thing is to specify if you're talking about a family's backyard shelter or a government community shelter, which can be a subway station full of hundreds of people.

Folding camp stools and cots can be put away during the day to make room and folded out only when needed, which cuts down on how much floor spcae you might need. Hammocks, too, can be slung from eyebolts fastened into walls...

Some sort of periscope to look outside without having to open the door may be a good idea, too.

[K. A. Pital]

Since people here talk about how they'd design a shelter, I'd like to ask the beginner of the thread - is it a self-made shelter for a familily, or a small community, or a shelter that is built by the national administration?

Because self-made shelters indeed can differ much from the standard anti-WMD shelters. I was mainly speaking of the latter.

[Vyraeth]

Again, thank you for all the replies, they have been quite helpful in beginning this process.

To clarify, the shelter my story will be based out of will have room for forty or so people -- or at least that's how I originally envisioned it, and that falls right in line with the small community descriptor.

Admittedly, I was slightly ambiguous when first posting, but I didn't think it mattered since I assumed I could scale down whatever information was posted to fit this setting and since I can further use additional information for expanding my universe later on (i.e. having survivors discover larger shelters down the line).

Ideally, I'm aiming to create a world where the band of people I'm writing about will be one of many groups struggling to survive in the wasteland, but for the purposes of the first story, which is my assignment, it will revolve around this smaller shelter and these characters -- so if there are fundamental differences in designing it, that certainly would be important to know (although I simply assumed it was a matter of size and provisions).

[Covenant]

How about a shelter for one?

This has inspired me as well. I'd been looking for a topic for an animation I'm working on, and all I've got right now is a space dude. I was hoping for something more serious, and a variation of the Cold Equation when dealing with converting a spaceship into a survival shelter might be very interesting, especially since you don't even need fallout. A hostile environment in space could be way worse.

What kinds of things will need to be present? I assume the ship will either be damaged or extremely low on fuel, so it's stranded on a planet and awaiting pickup, which could be a rather long time.

Right now I'm operating on the presumption that there's no flora or fauna.