White Sun: A Hearts of Iron Chinese AAR

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-02 05:20am

fgalkin wrote:It also adds the "Intelligence" tab, which gives access to spies, that can steal blueprints, sabotage industry/techteams, raise dissent/belligerence, fund partisans, and so on. If you're lucky, you can even coup a nation, although its hideously expensive, and has such a small chance of success that I've never seen it happen.

The "Intelligence" tab rocks. First of all it adds an enytirely new layer to the game (chance of success depends on your decryption/encryption tech and the number of spies you've infiltrated).

I've managed to coup Germany in 1939 playing as Poland. It was difficult, but worth it

I hate the research system, though. It's completely idiotic - they took a good idea (tech teams) and mangled it beyond any kind of usefulness.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2007-02-02 09:43am

PeZook wrote:I've managed to coup Germany in 1939 playing as Poland. It was difficult, but worth it

Why didn't you just conquer them in '36?

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-02 12:20pm

InnocentBystander wrote:
PeZook wrote:I've managed to coup Germany in 1939 playing as Poland. It was difficult, but worth it
Why didn't you just conquer them in '36?

Because then EVERYBODY declares war on you.

And Polish army in 1936 sucks even more than the German heer.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2007-02-02 01:43pm

PeZook, my next AAR will not only prove you wrong, but end with the White Eagle flying over Vladivostock. Just you wait

Another update later today! I've already playeds through and taken screenshots, just need to format and write.

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2007-02-02 01:59pm

PeZook wrote:
InnocentBystander wrote:
PeZook wrote:I've managed to coup Germany in 1939 playing as Poland. It was difficult, but worth it
Why didn't you just conquer them in '36?
Because then EVERYBODY declares war on you.

And Polish army in 1936 sucks even more than the German heer.

Everybody? What are you talking about? Germany has no allies in '36.

My favorite is defeating Germany as the Czech

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-02 02:18pm

InnocentBystander wrote: Everybody? What are you talking about? Germany has no allies in '36.

My favorite is defeating Germany as the Czech

Yeah, but in all my games, the British always got pissed off if I invaded Germany in 1936 and declared war on me.

The only instance when I "won the game" was when I invaded Czechoslovakia first, them Germany, them held off the Frenchy Hordes for a while until I ran out of manpower.

I conquered the world once as Poland, but I had to cheat the fuck out of the game to do it. My biggest problem was running out of generals to command my vast armies by the end of it, so I modded all my friends in

@ Thirdfain: I'd love to see that AAR

That would really hit this stupidly nationalistic egoistic side of me

InnocentBystander · Post by **InnocentBystander** » 2007-02-02 02:48pm

Are you running any sort of mods? In my game as the Czech I declared war on:
Germany
Hungary
Austria
Romania
Russia

and, in addition, ended up fighting

Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, and Turkey (but they declared on me due to treaties)

Allies never had any problems with me.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-02 03:53pm

InnocentBystander wrote:Are you running any sort of mods? In my game as the Czech I declared war on:
Germany
Hungary
Austria
Romania
Russia

and, in addition, ended up fighting

Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, and Turkey (but they declared on me due to treaties)

Allies never had any problems with me.

No, just vanilla. Haven't tried to pull this kind of shit with Doomsday, but I will check (eventually

)
Maybe the Poles are just on a shorter leash? Historically, we were considered a "troublemaker state" until Germany took this dubious honor from us.

Though I wouldn't be too fast to credit HoI II with modelling such intricacies of international relations

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-02-02 09:02pm

Hey Thirdfain, I forgot to say earlier. Sprites are for girls, real men use counters.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-03 01:10am

Well, I just tried to conquer Germany in 1936 in Doomsday and ran into a wall.

I completely forgot that you have a non-agression pact with Germany in 1936

So I always attacked them when it expired, and, well - by this time the Wehrmacht is a powerful force.

On the other hand, I think I figured out how to fix at least some of the flaws of the research system easily.

I modded out the "pre-historical date modifier" - which means all tech will be researched at the same speed now, modified only by difficulty and tech team speed - but increased the cost of research four times.

That means you can research shit pretty fast, but it's hideously expensive. I think I'll increase it even more, to be honest. Need to playtest a bit.

Post by **Vympel** » 2007-02-03 02:34am

PeZook wrote: I modded out the "pre-historical date modifier" - which means all tech will be researched at the same speed now, modified only by difficulty and tech team speed - but increased the cost of research four times.

That sounds interesting ... I might do the same next time I give the game a chance. Except for increasing the cost of research, that is

(and this is yet another example of the annoying HoI2 tendency to make you repeat history as opposed to trying something different)

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-02-03 02:44am

I think it's important to have some breaks on research. Nukes or tubojets in 1942 might be pushing realism a bit too much. On the other hand, I am currently playing a game where Italy conquers the Spaniards, the Balkans, and the French (Brits, you're next!). It's not even 1940 yet.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2007-02-03 03:09am

That sounds awesome Pezook. Would you be able to get it distributed soon?

Also, I think a cool way to fix the research system they have now would be to have multiple teams assigned to one project. That would clean it up slightly.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-03 03:12am

Vympel wrote:
PeZook wrote: I modded out the "pre-historical date modifier" - which means all tech will be researched at the same speed now, modified only by difficulty and tech team speed - but increased the cost of research four times.
That sounds interesting ... I might do the same next time I give the game a chance. Except for increasing the cost of research, that is

(and this is yet another example of the annoying HoI2 tendency to make you repeat history as opposed to trying something different)

I increased the cost mainly because I thought that money should really be what mostly limits tech research the most. In some cases it's not true (Manhattan project and it's insane energy requirements), but it's a good approximation. Though it neeeds to be increased more than four times, I found today. Four times just makes it too easy.

Maybe slow it down just a tiny bit, too.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-03 03:24am

Gandalf wrote:That sounds awesome Pezook. Would you be able to get it distributed soon?

Also, I think a cool way to fix the research system they have now would be to have multiple teams assigned to one project. That would clean it up slightly.

It's a simple file edit, you can do it yourself in less than a minute. Just go to your installation folder, into the dv subdirectory, find the text file "misc.txt" and scroll down to the bottom. You can modify the bonuses and cost there.

It would be much better if research was a more involved system, which could include multiple tech teams on a single project, and which would preserve researched techs for use in other projects. How many times do I have to research the "basic submachinegun" anyway? This could be done by redesigning the tech tree, I think. I'd have to look into that, since Doomsday has such a nice database editor included.

Also, tech teams should be present on the main map and capturable. So if you overrun the Heinkel works as Poland, for example, you can get some of their staff to work for you, and Germany can't use them anymore.

But all of this is just wishful thinking, far beyond my desire or skills to mod in.

Thirdfain · Post by **Thirdfain** » 2007-02-03 02:38pm

Adrian Laguna: Two things: 1, you should know that I almost always play with counters. I am not now playing with counters. This was done on purpose. Surely a man of your intelligence and confidence should be able to tell me why?

Also, I agree with your point on the issue of tech dates. I recall in HoI that whenever I played as the Soviets, I'd always be ready for the Germans with Kalashnikovs and herds of T-34/85s in 1941. It was hardly fair. Some control must be maintained!

PeZook: I'm unsure about your idea for the tech mod, for the reason just mentioned... I guess I'd want a little AAR report from someone to see how it operates. As for an eventual Poland game, well, I will get on it once I've finished this campaign. By the way, I once played a 2-man co-op game, me as poland, my friend as France. We conquered and partitioned all of Eurasia. Poland had a Pacific Fleet. it was awesome.

Vympel: I've almost always seen Barbarossa unfold, however, I think it's worth it to look in to the AI mods in any case.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Kuomintang/Shanxi War
(Continued)
November, 1936

The initial stage of the offensive has gone off without a hitch. Before midnight on the 4th of November:

At every turn, the Shanxi army fails to stop the glorious KMT aggressors. Strong columns puncture the weak defenses erected by a retreating Shanxi army. A number of generals in the service of the KMT are also ministers in the "government" of the rebellious province. These poor men are placed under house arrest as the invasion goes ahead.

November 9: Five days into the offensive, and the enemy still fails to even slow the advance of the victorious armies of th Kuomintang.

The overall situation on the 9th:

A Shanxi army has taken up position in Yucheng, behind the Yellow River. Chiang Kai-Shek's Coastal Front hits these fortifications and slows it's advance. Fortunately, the Center Front has already crossed the river to the West, and forces are dispatched to flank the Shanxi warlord's troops:

The annoyance in our march to victory is briskly pushed out of the way.

---------------------
More later.....

Post by **Gandalf** » 2007-02-03 02:48pm

Good to see it going to well Thirdfain. I eagerly await to see a bold, beige Asia.

I've been playing the tech mod that Pezook suggested, it makes for an interesting game as the USSR.

Playing until 1940, I was able to focus solely on the four infantry techs as soon as I started. The big challenge in 1939 was whether to start building the 1943 tech or wait for the 1945 techs. I imagine if I had better tech teams it might have been more interesting.

So as Germany or the US, it could be awesomely powerful.

PeZook · Post by **PeZook** » 2007-02-03 03:48pm

Gandalf wrote:Good to see it going to well Thirdfain. I eagerly await to see a bold, beige Asia.

I've been playing the tech mod that Pezook suggested, it makes for an interesting game as the USSR.

Playing until 1940, I was able to focus solely on the four infantry techs as soon as I started. The big challenge in 1939 was whether to start building the 1943 tech or wait for the 1945 techs. I imagine if I had better tech teams it might have been more interesting.

So as Germany or the US, it could be awesomely powerful.

I was aiming more to make research expensive enough so that you would have to pick & choose which tech teams worked at what, but it seems it swung the game too much towards the "dirt easy" side

I shall have to rethink the whole research angle.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2007-02-03 03:54pm

I couldn't see it working without a major redesign of the tech tree to (perhaps) include a lot more subtle bits, like in HoI1. So instead of having a tech be 5 segments like it is now, make them 5 seperate techs, and so on. I've seen tech tree mods done, but not that expansively.

So include a toned down version of the existing time penalty, and you'd have a semblance of a cool tech system.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-02-03 08:51pm

Thirdfain wrote:Adrian Laguna: Two things: 1, you should know that I almost always play with counters. I am not now playing with counters. This was done on purpose. Surely a man of your intelligence and confidence should be able to tell me why?

I would presume it's for the AAR. Which is still silly, counters > sprites in all occasions and for all situations.

Post by **Vympel** » 2007-02-03 09:14pm

Adrian Laguna wrote:I think it's important to have some breaks on research. Nukes or tubojets in 1942 might be pushing realism a bit too much. On the other hand, I am currently playing a game where Italy conquers the Spaniards, the Balkans, and the French (Brits, you're next!). It's not even 1940 yet.

Why? If you focus on one R&D field more than the others, then it stands to reason you should be more advanced in the field than otherwise- the "historical date" shouldn't have anything to do with it.

Personally, I loved invading Germany in 1940 with advanced ground equipment, a result of completely neglecting the naval tree and giving only a cursory amount of attention to air- it was fun

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2007-02-04 04:12am

I like playing sandbox style, US as an isolationist, government starting in either 1936, or in 1940 as a result of republicans winning control of the whitehouse (who'da thunk?), and building a series of forts to rival the majinot line along the boarders.while staying the fuck out of everybody's politics, except for occasionally attempting to coup Mexico.....

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2007-02-04 04:20am

Even though i've never played HoI this is still damn fun to read. Did China really have a German guy as a general back then?

Losonti Tokash · Post by **Losonti Tokash** » 2007-02-04 05:01am

IIRC, Germany sent a lot of advisors to China in exchange for tungsten.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2007-02-04 05:08am

2000AD wrote:Did China really have a German guy as a general back then?

Alexander von Falkenhausen. His position was military advisor to Chiang Kai-Shek. I don't know whether he actually lead Chinese troops or not. Considering the fact that he did help the Nationalists learn about waging war effectively, I suppose it's not innacurate even if he didn't really lead troops.

Wikipedia has a short article on him.