Moderator: Vympel
Ah but it happens a lot in Star TrekDarth Wong wrote:Really, the way these people argue, you'd think that there's some kind of shame associated with working in groups rather than working alone, even though that's the way anything useful gets done in real-life.
.
Again, much thanks to Darth Servo, Batman, and everybody else for the immense help with this mess! Thank you guys!ZyamaMaN wrote:"I used RSA's comments as a refrence. I also did not directly quote your arguements and ask people to dissect them for me. I merely asked for suggestions. There's a difference there. Debate on your own. I use st-v-sw.net as a source. You are free to use the information presented on SDN as a source if you wish. However, asking others who are not present at this site to dissect MY replys to give you ammunition is not an "honest debate tactic"."
That's how you see it.
But I remember that you mass-quoted Darkstar's arguments after declared SD.net as biased and refused to even consider it as a referenced source for any of my points. And that was before I even had the thought to take anything from there for my arguments.
You shouldn't have done that, because it basically told me that an honest debate is not what you want. Too bad.
You opened that door, but it's too late now.
"The wide-beam setting on kill:
Voyager Episode "Cathexis", said by Tuvok: "this phaser is on wide-beam dispersal and set to kill." No one says, "That's impossible.""
Oh that's because all Voyager characters are brain-dead morons! Yes, even the holographic Doctor- his brain is digitally dead!
As it was pointed out for me, no one was killed in that scene as the phaser was set to STUN!
And it was on Voyager's bridge - you can shoot blind over that place and still hit some dumbshit crewmember uselessly hanging around! Doesn't exactly qualifies for "long range"! More like "spitting distance"...
Besides, why should we take anything said by an ST character in face value? Those morons were wrong so many times in the past that one might start wondering as to what are they exactly teaching them in this so-called Starfleet "Academy"?
"And since you can INFER that the Empire uses chemical weapons, isn't it logical for me to INFER that phasers have the ability to kill while on wide-beam?"
Because Imperial bio/chemical weapons been used and verified as functional!
ST characters, on the other hand, are often wrong about their predictions, that's why we never trust anything said onscreen unless it have been verified.
"Uh, no they don't. They are not exchaning gigaton level blasts in RoTJ... ...when a) a Star Destroyer explodes in the background, probably from a reactor going critcal."
The DVD version clearly shows it was destroyed by a Mon-Calamari cruiser.
"We do not see massive explosions,"
Do you even remember that we are talking about DET weapons in friggin space?!
What explosions are you talking about?
"We do see a rebel frigate and a Star Destroyer exchanging fire at point blank range, with apparent minor damage on both sides"
The ISD were using it's LTL's- they are positioned in it's trench, and the HTL's are on the top of the ship- there's no way it could've used it from that angle.
"I also would ike to give you this quote:
"Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing against Direption's aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up."
This is from X-Wing: Isard's Revenge. It states that the main weapons of two ISD IIs are throwing out terajoules of energy. Not gigatons."
Who said those were HTL batteries? And it's not said how much TJ's were there. Oh and the X-Wing series are overridden by the ICS...
"They are long range weapons, though. It has an enormous amount of firepower there. It could've thrown out broadsides of energy and overwhelmed the fighters. Right?"
Only shows your ignorance concerning anything military.
Heavy guns can't hit small targets not because they are too powerful, but because they are too SLOW! The turret's servomotors were not intended for the speeds necessary in order to track such swift and agile targets as starfighters! Even if they would, it wouldn't be as efficient as weapons that WERE intended for such tasks, since the heavy guns have a slow rate of fire. Or do you think that this [link] is an appropriate weapon against fighter planes?!
"Ad hominem and irrelevant."
No, I was pointing out that you were ignoring my points- that's pretty relevant!
"Where do we see it in the movies? I see turbolaser blasts being exhanged, but I see no evidence whatsoever of the visible portion being merely a tracer."
[link]
Here you can see the asteroid vaporise before the bolt actually reaches it.
"It should be when you have armor, balsters and walking tanks."
Hmm, let's see, the Ewoks had:
The advantage of homefield
They heavily outnumbered the Stromies- remember that the actual legion was waiting at the main entrance because they thought that the attack on the rear entrance was a diversion.
Ewoks are much stronger than a human, they were able to throw those rocks very hard- and the Stormie's armor wasn't intended to deal with such kinetic energy.
And despite all this they were STILL loosing to the Stormies until Chewie took ove that walker!
"And even where Chewie WASN'T, the Ewoks kicked the crap out of the stormies with sticks and pieces of rock. Remember the ones in front of the bunker that were keeping Han and Liea pinned down?"
Only in a few selected situations- the Stormies were still slaughtering the Ewoks.
And it doesn't matter how heavy your armor is- it will still conduct kinetic energy.
"In "The Mind's Eye" Data states the a phaser rifle they are examining outputs at "1.05 MJs of energy per second", which is above standard Satrfleet effeciency. However, Data then says it shoudl be firing at 86.5% effeciency. Do the math and then comes to .908 MJs (or .91 if you round) per second. That means that in three seconds it can put out 2.724 MJs."
Data is an idiot! Here are four good examples of his incompetence: (the links were originally posted by Darth Servo in this very thread, no reason to post them again)
[link]
[link]
[link]
[link]
"We see people vaporized in Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, as well as TOS. "
What you don't seem to understand is that disappearing into thin air IS NOT vaporising!
Vaporising include such arbitrary things as... um, I don't know, maybe VAPOR?!
You can read Mr Wong.s Phaser (correspondingly...) [link] page if you want, who knows, you might actually learn something new!
"Which clearly shows it being used to cut through metal."
How much time did it take them to do so? Any proof that those aluminum walls are anywhere close to being as strong as Stormie armor?
"Mass charge?
Here. [link]"
That's the only example. And even then, they were had air, heavy artillery and long-range fire support. AND they were successfully engaging from several kilometers! If you really think the redshirts have any chance against this kind of force, you gotta be a complete nut job!
"Gee, maybe they miss because the other ships are actually taking evasive action, unlike Star Wars ships..."
What they call "evasive action" in ST may be good for WW2 era heavy battleships, SW ships are a bit faster, you know...
Besides, the "evasive action" in Best of Both Worlds constituted a slow turn to the left- this would only save when you are at spitting distance from the enemy- travlling 400 meters would bring you out of the enemie's firing arc. It won't work when your enemy dozens of kilometers away.
"And they hit a lot more then they miss. There is no rule that states "Stre Trek ships always miss""
If they manage to miss a 600 meters long ship from 500 METERS, it's just pathetic!
"In the episode "The Wounded", the USS Phoenix engaged a Cardassian warship at roughly 300,000 kilometers and was fired on at 200,000 while taking evasive manuvers. The Phoenix fires torpeoes at roughly 200,000 kilometers and destroys the Cardassian ship, who was well aware of the Pheonix's presence."
That's the only example- all other engagements in ST take place in ranges not exceeding a few kilometers.
And that was a ship-to-ship battle. In an actual fleet engagement combat jamming would take place, drastically decreasing effective range for most weapons.
"He refuses to accept, despite numerous occasions in the X-Wing novels and other EU books, that X-Wings and other warhead carrying craft can engage and destroy capital ships."
It is clearly shown in the movies that there is no way a starfighter could take on a capship, unless in ridiculously high numbers and each one armed with protoprs with highest yield possible.
And ICS overrides X-Wing series because it takes most of it's information directly from the movies.
"I read it for entertainment and information. I ahve other boards where I go to discuss politics. Furthermore, this is a red herring arguement, having nothing to do with the topic at hand."
What kind of hypocritical shit are you?!
It's ok for you to tell me to stay away from SD.net, but when I tell you that sT-v-sW.net is a shitty site, it's suddenly not ok?! It's suddenly a red herring?!
"There is no evidence of them switching out warheads for different targets. I nfact, in the X-Wing books they take on capital ships with the same kind of torpedoes that they use against TIEs. There is nothing to indicate that they switched over to a different kind of warhead."
Bullshit. In TPM, we see vastly different yields on Proton torps from the Naboo starfighters. The torp that hit the big radar produced a MUCH larger explosion than the ones that hit the reactor.
Plus, Slave-I and it's sesmic charges and missiles.
"Phaser Rifle w/ sight
[link]"
Oh yeah, that dinky piece of shit is a god substitute for a real iron sight!
It's enough to drop the thing on the sight just once, and that's it, you have mo more optical devices!
Plus, the rifle has no stock, so it can be effective at a hundred meters tops!
That's precisely the evidence you asked to prove that ST weapons are flimsy!
A real gun have to be strong enough to take any kind of abuse, including being dropped, and things being dropped over it. That's why ST weapons aren't robust and not suitable for combat in the field.
You DO know the elevation he'd have to be at to get LOS for that to be possible in the first place unless it happened in space, right?Aratech wrote:Not entirely sure how relevant this is, but if he keeps harping on infantry weapons, remind him that Wars can field a one-man-portable, theoretically kiloton level HPMG in the form of the E-web tripod blaster. As far as range is concerned, a DC-15 can shoot 10 KM when properly stabilized. The longest known firing range, to my knowledge, is the Aratech sniper rifle. HK-47 claims that he kneecapped a guy from 120KM in the KOTOR series (being a droid, he doesn't have much reason to lie)
So?Also, there is one instance of an M/HTL scoring a fighter kill in the movies. Porkins goes down to one in ANH, several minutes before the TIE fighters were launched.
Let me guess, that's from game materials again.Finally, on the armor, though not issued to rank and file stormies, the Katarn Mark III combat armor issued to commando units is supposed to be able to take 'light laser cannon rounds' and has enough KE defense to take a point blank shot from a verpine shatter gun and do nothing more than knock the target on his rear-end.
No, sir, I did not. I assumed it would be several miles up, possibly on the side of a mountain, but I didn't think it would be that high, as can't you see 17KM from being at the height of an AT-AT walker?Batman wrote: You DO know the elevation he'd have to be at to get LOS for that to be possible in the first place unless it happened in space, right?
Just a little something for him to use against those who constantly spout that Trek ships would evade the guns because the fighters can. I apologize if it was incorrect of me to say so. I keep having to shoot those claims down by newbs over at SB.So?
No sir, an EU Clone Wars novel.Let me guess, that's from game materials again.
Several miles is actually excessive, IF you assume a clear FoV. How often is that the case on a real-world battlefield? Then there's atmospheric dispersion, possibly gravity (though blasters don't seem to suffer from it all that much), inherent accuracy of the weapon, if this is from KOTOR 1 the fact that AK-47 was mentally handicapped at the time and the position games have WRT canon.Aratech wrote:No, sir, I did not. I assumed it would be several miles up, possibly on the side of a mountain, but I didn't think it would be that high, as can't you see 17KM from being at the height of an AT-AT walker?Batman wrote: You DO know the elevation he'd have to be at to get LOS for that to be possible in the first place unless it happened in space, right?
No, where geometry is concerned you got me licked. Doesn't mean it can hit(harm the target. It can TARGET it at that range.
Is there some key factor that I've missed? Well, regardless, thank you for the correction.
Okay, my bad. I guess I didn't see what you were getting at. To me that looked like you challenging Magnus argument that anti-capship TLs can't reliably hit fighters.Just a little something for him to use against those who constantly spout that Trek ships would evade the guns because the fighters can. I apologize if it was incorrect of me to say so. I keep having to shoot those claims down by newbs over at SB.So?
My bad then. The firepower of those is?No sir, an EU Clone Wars novel.Let me guess, that's from game materials again.
Hard to quantify. It's a pistol sized weapon, and bears slight resemblance to that German pistol used in WWI (sorry, can't remember the name of the model off the top of my head). Despite this, it carries 50 rounds per clip, so they're about the size of a BB. There are claims that its a subsonic weapon, but I'm not sure. In the books, the weapon has a distinctive 'crack' that it makes when the shots fly by a target, and its supposed to have a 1.5 kilometer range, or something like that. As for damage, well, when employed at a range of about 1-200 meters against phase II katarn armor, it hit the clone with enough force that the projectile shattered his armor, put a good sized hole in him, and sent metal fragments of his gear flying with sufficient velocity to give critical injuries to a non-armored individual a few meters away. Requests were immediately put in for a suit that was more resistant to ballistic damage.Batman wrote:Aratech wrote:47 mentions the use of something called a 'tri-light scope' whatever the hell that is. I'd also assume this would have to be a C-speed laser weapon, in order for the target not to have moved out of the way of the shot.Batman wrote:
Several miles is actually excessive, IF you assume a clear FoV. How often is that the case on a real-world battlefield? Then there's atmospheric dispersion, possibly gravity (though blasters don't seem to suffer from it all that much), inherent accuracy of the weapon, if this is from KOTOR 1 the fact that AK-47 was mentally handicapped at the time and the position games have WRT canon.
That said, you have a point about his circuits being fried. I would suspect though, that if the Wars equivalent of an assault rifle can shoot 10 km when properly stablized, that their sniper weapons must have tremendous range possibilities. But, maybe I'm assuming too much. *shrugs*
Don't worry about it sir, I probably should have added something along the lines of 'let alone multi hundred meter long ships.' I'll try to be more clear in the future.Okay, my bad. I guess I didn't see what you were getting at. To me that looked like you challenging Magnus argument that anti-capship TLs can't reliably hit fighters.
My bad then. The firepower of those is?
I wish you would stop calling me sir. You make me feel even older than I already do.Aratech wrote:I take it you realize how far out of synch that is with every OTHER instance of SW infantry weapon ranges.Batman wrote:47 mentions the use of something called a 'tri-light scope' whatever the hell that is. I'd also assume this would have to be a C-speed laser weapon, in order for the target not to have moved out of the way of the shot.Aratech wrote: Several miles is actually excessive, IF you assume a clear FoV. How often is that the case on a real-world battlefield? Then there's atmospheric dispersion, possibly gravity (though blasters don't seem to suffer from it all that much), inherent accuracy of the weapon, if this is from KOTOR 1 the fact that AK-47 was mentally handicapped at the time and the position games have WRT canon.Why? We saw the DC-15 fire at that range, that doesn't necessarily mean they can effectively hit an individual target at it. A modern day 7.62x51 can kill a human at ranges exceeding 3km. Have fun trying to hit one at that range with a sniper rifle, leave alone an assault one. NTM a lot of the time LOS is going to be a problem at those ranges.That said, you have a point about his circuits being fried. I would suspect though, that if the Wars equivalent of an assault rifle can shoot 10 km when properly stablized, that their sniper weapons must have tremendous range possibilities.Don't worry about it sir, I probably should have added something along the lines of 'let alone multi hundred meter long ships.' I'll try to be more clear in the future.Okay, my bad. I guess I didn't see what you were getting at. To me that looked like you challenging Magnus argument that anti-capship TLs can't reliably hit fighters.
I know, which kinda bugs me. I'm trying to figure out how he could have performed such a shot.Batman wrote: I take it you realize how far out of synch that is with every OTHER instance of SW infantry weapon ranges.
I assumed that their sensor tech could cover that, since aside from visual problems, the main obstacle is that the round runs out of steam. Blasters don't seem to have that problem.Why? We saw the DC-15 fire at that range, that doesn't necessarily mean they can effectively hit an individual target at it. A modern day 7.62x51 can kill a human at ranges exceeding 3km. Have fun trying to hit one at that range with a sniper rifle, leave alone an assault one. NTM a lot of the time LOS is going to be a problem at those ranges.
Sorry, old habit. I'll cease and desist.
I wish you would stop calling me sir. You make me feel even older than I already do.
dragoon1940 wrote:"But I remember that you mass-quoted Darkstar's arguments after declared SD.net as biased and refused to even consider it as a referenced source for any of my points. And that was before I even had the thought to take anything from there for my arguments.
You shouldn't have done that, because it basically told me that an honest debate is not what you want. Too bad.
You opened that door, but it's too late now."
You can refrence SD.net all you want. I do not believe it to be areliable source of information, much as you do not believe st-v-sw.net to be a reliable. Getting other people to pick apart my arguements for you is something entirely different.
"Oh that's because all Voyager characters are brain-dead morons! Yes, even the holographic Doctor- his brain is digitally dead!"
Irrelevant
"As it was pointed out for me, no one was killed in that scene as the phaser was set to STUN!"
The quote takes place AFTER the scene where people on the bridge are stunned en masse.
"And it was on Voyager's bridge - you can shoot blind over that place and still hit some dumbshit crewmember uselessly hanging around! Doesn't exactly qualifies for "long range"! More like "spitting distance"..."
What does this have to do with wide-beam settings?
"Besides, why should we take anything said by an ST character in face value? Those morons were wrong so many times in the past that one might start wondering as to what are they exactly teaching them in this so-called Starfleet "Academy"?"
Irrelevant and a convienent excuse for you to ignore everything said by Star Trek characters.
"ST characters, on the other hand, are often wrong about their predictions, that's why we never trust anything said onscreen unless it have been verified."
See above.
"They heavily outnumbered the Stromies- remember that the actual legion was waiting at the main entrance because they thought that the attack on the rear entrance was a diversion."
NUmber shouldn't matter if you ahve superior equipment and training. See the book Black Hawk Down. The United States forces killed or wounded hundreds if not thousands of Somalians and successfully completed their mission, took a mere 18 dead and extracted those who were trapped.
"Ewoks are much stronger than a human, they were able to throw those rocks very hard- and the Stormie's armor wasn't intended to deal with such kinetic energy."
What? Ewoks are short, with stubby little arms. You can't expect me to believe they're that much stronger then humans. And if Stormie armor can't stand up to kinetics, I guess we'll have to break out the AK-47s...
"What you don't seem to understand is that disappearing into thin air IS NOT vaporising!
Vaporising include such arbitrary things as... um, I don't know, maybe VAPOR?!
You can read Mr Wong.s Phaser [link] page if you want, who knows, you might actually learn something new!"
Fine. Disentegate. Make dissepear. Dis-assembled his molecules. The point is, they're gone from the earth, dead, no longer living. They have been broken into tiny little pieces that are now floating about the atmosphere.
"What they call "evasive action" in ST may be good for WW2 era heavy battleships, SW ships are a bit faster, you know..."
Proof? They look pretty slow to me.
"Besides, the "evasive action" in Best of Both Worlds constituted a slow turn to the left- this would only save when you are at spitting distance from the enemy- travlling 400 meters would bring you out of the enemie's firing arc. It won't work when your enemy dozens of kilometers away."
See also: "First Contact", Voyager, DS9, etc.
"And that was a ship-to-ship battle. In an actual fleet engagement combat jamming would take place, drastically decreasing effective range for most weapons."
So ranges would be lower for both sides then?
"How much time did it take them to do so? Any proof that those aluminum walls are anywhere close to being as strong as Stormie armor?"
Any proof that it's aluminum?
"What kind of hypocritical shit are you?!
It's ok for you to tell me to stay away from SD.net, but when I tell you that sT-v-sW.net is a shitty site, it's suddenly not ok?! It's suddenly a red herring?!"
Ad hominem aside, your original post included refrences to message boards discussing politics, etc. which are currently irrelevant to our discussion.
"A real gun have to be strong enough to take any kind of abuse, including being dropped, and things being dropped over it. That's why ST weapons aren't robust and not suitable for combat in the field."
In FC and Insurrection, phaser rifles are used in hand-to-hand combat and take quite a beating.
No they didn't, their mission was to capture or kill a warlord who organized attacks on soldiers who were protecting humanitarian aid from being stolen by said warlords men, the mission was a dismal failure and their target died of natural causes.NUmber shouldn't matter if you ahve superior equipment and training. See the book Black Hawk Down. The United States forces killed or wounded hundreds if not thousands of Somalians and successfully completed their mission, took a mere 18 dead and extracted those who were trapped.
Yeah, rocks that would have otherwised busted the stormtroopers heads open and killed them either on impact or from blood loss.What? Ewoks are short, with stubby little arms. You can't expect me to believe they're that much stronger then humans. And if Stormie armor can't stand up to kinetics, I guess we'll have to break out the AK-47s...
Right because a space station the size of a small moon traversing the circumferance of a gas giant in a number of hours under its own power happens every day...Proof? They look pretty slow to me.
Yes, although I have a feeling you're going to try to say Trek jamming would dramatically affect Wars sensors, despite the latter designed to work through jammers putting up enough interference to fuck with the fabric of space.So ranges would be lower for both sides then?
Any proof those walls can stand up to being hit by a sharpened pole thrown with enough force to be capable of picking up a adult human and slamming against the wall whilst merely leaving a blemish?Any proof that it's aluminum?
Actually they are relevant since you are speaking of the mental capabilities a stabilities of whom you are currently getting your argument from.Ad hominem aside, your original post included refrences to message boards discussing politics, etc. which are currently irrelevant to our discussion.
I will also ask him what he think's would've happened if the Somalian gunmen happened to take over an APC or some other heavy vehicle the Americans deployed in that battle!Pint0 Xtreme wrote:You should ask him what he thinks would have happened to the rest of the rangers if they remained in Mogadishu without any means of evacuation. In short, they'd be dead. Sure, they took out hundreds of Somali gunmen, but they also lost that battle. Chewie taking an AT-ST is the equivalent of a Somali gunman somehow hijacking one of the Blackhawks and using it to gun down the Americans. The Imperial regiment on Endor did not enjoy the privilege of evacuation. They were ordered to destroy the rebels no matter the cost and they ended up fighting (and killing scores of ewoks and rebels) to their end.
I fail to see how. Using another site for information is using another site for information.dragoon1940 wrote:"But I remember that you mass-quoted Darkstar's arguments after declared SD.net as biased and refused to even consider it as a referenced source for any of my points. And that was before I even had the thought to take anything from there for my arguments.
You shouldn't have done that, because it basically told me that an honest debate is not what you want. Too bad.
You opened that door, but it's too late now."
You can refrence SD.net all you want. I do not believe it to be areliable source of information, much as you do not believe st-v-sw.net to be a reliable. Getting other people to pick apart my arguements for you is something entirely different.
So? It's still an unsubstantiated quote that doesn't even show there's such a thing as widebeam kill leave alone at any ranges worth mentioning.The quote takes place AFTER the scene where people on the bridge are stunned en masse.
It shows that even if there were such a thing as widebeam kill it would have a range that's laughably low."And it was on Voyager's bridge - you can shoot blind over that place and still hit some dumbshit crewmember uselessly hanging around! Doesn't exactly qualifies for "long range"! More like "spitting distance"..."
What does this have to do with wide-beam settings?
Completely relevant. If said characters are regularly FACTUALLY WRONG in what they say then yes that's reason to dismiss their statements when not supported by visual evidence. Like, yanno, the widebeam kill quote."Besides, why should we take anything said by an ST character in face value? Those morons were wrong so many times in the past that one might start wondering as to what are they exactly teaching them in this so-called Starfleet "Academy"?"
Irrelevant and a convienent excuse for you to ignore everything said by Star Trek characters.
Exactly. Unless there's no evidence for them being right, especially when there's evidence for them being wrong, we assume they're WRONG."ST characters, on the other hand, are often wrong about their predictions, that's why we never trust anything said onscreen unless it have been verified."
See above.
They didn't. Kill rations were WAY in favour of the Imperials in the beginning."They heavily outnumbered the Stromies- remember that the actual legion was waiting at the main entrance because they thought that the attack on the rear entrance was a diversion."
NUmber shouldn't matter if you ahve superior equipment and training.
In spite of the Somalis capturing one of the Little Birds unnoticed and turning it on the Americans. Oh wait, that didn't happen.See the book Black Hawk Down. The United States forces killed or wounded hundreds if not thousands of Somalians and successfully completed their mission, took a mere 18 dead and extracted those who were trapped.
I wonder if we can get this moron to wrestle a chimpanzee. After all it's short, and has even thinner arms than an Ewok, you can't expect him to believe it's stronger than a human..."Ewoks are much stronger than a human, they were able to throw those rocks very hard- and the Stormie's armor wasn't intended to deal with such kinetic energy."
What? Ewoks are short, with stubby little arms. You can't expect me to believe they're that much stronger then humans.
Complete ignorance of math and CoM. Not only does CoM mean that even if that armour is completely indestructible no matter what the momentum, the momentum has to go SOMEWHERE (i.e. the head of the guy wearing the helmet) but a rock that size has a BIT more of it than a dinky little 7.62x39.And if Stormie armor can't stand up to kinetics, I guess we'll have to break out the AK-47s...
I'm not sure what he's trying to argue here other than admitting he was wrong, which doesn't seem to be his style."What you don't seem to understand is that disappearing into thin air IS NOT vaporising!
Vaporising include such arbitrary things as... um, I don't know, maybe VAPOR?!
You can read Mr Wong.s Phaser [link] page if you want, who knows, you might actually learn something new!"
Fine. Disentegate. Make dissepear. Dis-assembled his molecules. The point is, they're gone from the earth, dead, no longer living. They have been broken into tiny little pieces that are now floating about the atmosphere.
X-Wings intercepting DS1 in ANH, DS1 circling Yavin in a matter of minutes in ANH, ships making orbit in a matter of seconds all throughout Wars, the Imperial Fleet deceleration in RotJ/the RotJ novelisation (can't remember which), explicit acceleration numbers given in the ICSes, high fractional c combat in the EU..."What they call "evasive action" in ST may be good for WW2 era heavy battleships, SW ships are a bit faster, you know..."
Proof? They look pretty slow to me.
Which had the same pitiful ranges and slow maneuvering (if not QUITE as slow as that glacial turn in BobW). WW2 navy ships."Besides, the "evasive action" in Best of Both Worlds constituted a slow turn to the left- this would only save when you are at spitting distance from the enemy- travlling 400 meters would bring you out of the enemie's firing arc. It won't work when your enemy dozens of kilometers away."
See also: "First Contact", Voyager, DS9, etc.
Only if Trek jamming affects Wars sensors the existance of which they know nothing about leave alone have the technology to counter, so likely no. Even if yes, it's down to 100s of kilometers for Wars against ships that move like WW2 navy ships vs 100 of meters for Trek against ships with 4-figure c acceleration."And that was a ship-to-ship battle. In an actual fleet engagement combat jamming would take place, drastically decreasing effective range for most weapons."
So ranges would be lower for both sides then?
And the moron doesn't know what hyperbole is, either. Phasers are regularly stopped by packing crates that re light enough to be lifted by a single human or be toppled over when said human stumbles into them and don't seem to do any noticeable damage when toppling over ONTO him/her."How much time did it take them to do so? Any proof that those aluminum walls are anywhere close to being as strong as Stormie armor?"
Any proof that it's aluminum?
Say the Millenium Falcon took five minutes to ascend 2000 km into Tatooine's orbit (it was probably higher, but I don't have any screencaps to scale). Then, assuming continuous acceleration and discounting gravity for a lower limit, it must have accelerated at a rate of a = 2d/t^2 = 40 m/s/s = 4G. Note that ISDs are able to accelerate more quickly than the Millenium Falcon, as we see in the same sequence. Their acceleration will (as a simple and conservative calculation shows) be greater than 45 m/s/s.Proof? They look pretty slow to me.
By this logic, chimpanzees are correspondingly weaker than humans. Oh, wait.What? Ewoks are short, with stubby little arms. You can't expect me to believe they're that much stronger then humans.
Again, thanks to everybody for their help!ZyamaMaN wrote:"You can refrence SD.net all you want. I do not believe it to be areliable source of information, much as you do not believe st-v-sw.net to be a reliable. Getting other people to pick apart my arguements for you is something entirely different."
I will say it again- if you wanted a honest argument you shouldn't have quoted Darkstar in the first place. Too late for that now.
"Irrelevant"
It's irrelevant to point out their incompetence when talking about... their incompetence?!
"The quote takes place AFTER the scene where people on the bridge are stunned en masse."
So? We still don't see people being killed by a wide beam!
"What does this have to do with wide-beam settings?"
It means that even if we take the unsupported assumption that phasers on wide-beam DO kill, it never been used on any significant ranges, which still makes them useless!
"Irrelevant and a convienent excuse for you to ignore everything said by Star Trek characters."
No, that's a pretty good reason not to take anything said by them in face value!
Give me one good reason why should we, based on the fact that they routinely make stupid mistakes about almost everything!
"See above."
Vice versa.
I don't see any reasons why SHOULD we trust those morons!
"NUmber shouldn't matter if you ahve superior equipment and training. See the book Black Hawk Down. The United States forces killed or wounded hundreds if not thousands of Somalians and successfully completed their mission, took a mere 18 dead and extracted those who were trapped."
More of your military ignorance- those two incidents are grossly dissimilar.
First, the Somalian gunmen never took over any american armored vehicles- imagine what would've happened to the Rangers if the gunmen would suddenly gain control over one of those APC's!
Second, the Stormtroopers were ordered NOT to kill the Rebels! Although this order wasn't regarding the Ewoks, it's a pretty serious factor, and it handicapped the Stormies in their choice of tactics.
Thirdly, American troops had the privilege to retreat, while Stromies had no such luxury!
You also appear to be ignorant about recent history- the Americans didn't succeed in their mission- they failed it miserably!
"What? Ewoks are short, with stubby little arms. You can't expect me to believe they're that much stronger then humans."
With that notion I will arrange a wrestling match with a chimpanzee for you!
Here's a newsbrake- chimpanzees are much stronger than humans, while they are reletively small compared to us! And it's not unique, many animals are stronger than humans, yet smaller than us. The way Ewoks were able to handle those rocks in size of their heads (and their head are much larger than ours) tells us just how strong they are.
"And if Stormie armor can't stand up to kinetics, I guess we'll have to break out the AK-47s..."
You now exhibit total ignorance in Conservation of Momentum. Which basically says that no matter how strong your armor is, the kinetic energy has to go SOMEWHERE! Namely, into the body of the wearer...
In case you didn't know- the 7.62 round don't have such great kinetic energy when fired!
In fact, me armed with a baseball bat can produce much more momentum than a the tiny 7.62! What makes it so dangerous is his great velocity and it's and high momentum relatively
to it's small size- all of the momentum is concentrated over a very small area, thus granting the bullet such great penetration ability.
That's how Kevlar vests stop bullets- they disperse the momentum over larger area, thus preventing the bullet from penetrating it. The guy still feels the impact!
And we know that Stromie can stand up to such force dispersed over small areas, thus you can empty a whole AK-47 clip into the Stromie if you ant to, it will not penetrate, though he will feel every single bullet!
But then he'll just stand up and burn a very big whole in you with his E-11!
"Fine. Disentegate. Make dissepear. Dis-assembled his molecules. The point is, they're gone from the earth, dead, no longer living. They have been broken into tiny little pieces that are now floating about the atmosphere."
It means that phasers are NOT DET weapons but chain reaction weapons, they don't rely on pure energy to kill people, and that this whole disintegration thing is nothing but a cheap magic trick which will be useless in a real combat situation!
"Proof? They look pretty slow to me."
X-Wings intercepting DS1 in ANH, DS1 circling Yavin in a matter of minutes in ANH, ships making orbit in a matter of seconds all throughout Wars, the Imperial Fleet deceleration in RotJ/the RotJ novelisation (can't remember which), explicit acceleration numbers given in the ICSes, high fractional c combat in the EU... (sorry, Batman, didn't have the tolerance to search for those myself- thanks!)
"See also: "First Contact", Voyager, DS9, etc."
Where in any of those we see any faster evasive actions?
"So ranges would be lower for both sides then? "
Um, no, because, a) we still see SW FLEET engagements over great ranges (like in RoTJ), and, b)SW ships don't solely rely on active tracking systems like ST ships do. I the worst scenario they can just do it the old way- calculate the enemie's speed, and based on that build a trajectory for their shot.
"Any proof that it's aluminum?"
It's not the point, and frankly, I don't give a shit how do they call the crap they make walls from!
The point is that it's up to YOU to prove that those wall they were cutting with their phasers are even relatively as strong as SW body armor!
"Ad hominem aside, your original post included refrences to message boards discussing politics, etc. which are currently irrelevant to our discussion."
First of all, it's not ad hominem since I DO address your point- you can't just shout "AD HOMINEM" for every hint for an insult you get! So stop calling everything ad hominem, especcially when it's regarding the original point
Second, it's pretty relevant, because you flamed SD.net as being a bad site to go to, and when I called you out on it, it suddenly became a red herring?!
You are being a hypocrite, and that's pretty damn relevant!
"In FC and Insurrection, phaser rifles are used in hand-to-hand combat and take quite a beating."
In Nemesis, Picards rifle snapped when he whacked some Reman over the head with it- it wouldn't happened if it was a real weapon intended for real combat, and not some funky toy with a flashlight instead of a scope!
Just a quick note in an otherwise brutal demolition of this ass-- IIRC, the Rangers in Mogadishu DID complete their mission successfully (they retrieved the Somali lieutenants they were there to capture). I just thought I'd point it out before this guy decides to do the same and concentrate on it to the exclusion of every other point you (and everyone else here) have made.MagnusTheReD wrote: You also appear to be ignorant about recent history- the Americans didn't succeed in their mission- they failed it miserably!
I knew that, that's why I said "Americans"!The Cooler King wrote:Just a quick note in an otherwise brutal demolition of this ass-- IIRC, the Rangers in Mogadishu DID complete their mission successfully (they retrieved the Somali lieutenants they were there to capture). I just thought I'd point it out before this guy decides to do the same and concentrate on it to the exclusion of every other point you (and everyone else here) have made.MagnusTheReD wrote: You also appear to be ignorant about recent history- the Americans didn't succeed in their mission- they failed it miserably!
Also one has to wonder how well they would have done if you replaced the Somalians with bears who could use firearms.MagnusTheReD wrote:I will also ask him what he think's would've happened if the Somalian gunmen happened to take over an APC or some other heavy vehicle the Americans deployed in that battle!Pint0 Xtreme wrote:You should ask him what he thinks would have happened to the rest of the rangers if they remained in Mogadishu without any means of evacuation. In short, they'd be dead. Sure, they took out hundreds of Somali gunmen, but they also lost that battle. Chewie taking an AT-ST is the equivalent of a Somali gunman somehow hijacking one of the Blackhawks and using it to gun down the Americans. The Imperial regiment on Endor did not enjoy the privilege of evacuation. They were ordered to destroy the rebels no matter the cost and they ended up fighting (and killing scores of ewoks and rebels) to their end.
You don't even need to reference real life (although it certainly helps). Its a canon fact that Ewoks are far stronger than humans. Luke had to strain just to tip R2-D2 up-right on Degobah. Ewoks lifted the little droid up with ease.Surlethe wrote:By this logic, chimpanzees are correspondingly weaker than humans. Oh, wait.What? Ewoks are short, with stubby little arms. You can't expect me to believe they're that much stronger then humans.
TYB should LOVE that one.Darth Servo wrote: Also one has to wonder how well they would have done if you replaced the Somalians with bears who could use firearms.
Basically "possition" may refer to things other than position but "here" means "position" and therefore the Imperial fleet at Endor needed to get closer according to this moron.Which could any number of things. It could mean that the fleet is in formation, that they are now fully prepared, etc. Piet specifically says "hold here". He doesn't say "hold fire" or "hold the attack" he says "hold here". "Here" generally refers to position.Wrong. Just before that, an Imperial officer had just informed Piett that they were now in "attack position".The Imperial fleet is actually given the command by Piet to "hold here" implying that they would have to move closer to get within weapons range.
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