If every prisoner was killed ...

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2003-01-02 01:39pm

Darth Wong wrote:If every prisoner in every maximum-security prison was executed by gunshot tomorrow (no hearing, no clemency, no exceptions), would society be better off, or worse off?

Not that I'm seriously proposing such a thing, but seriously, would society be better off? And if so, does that mean the idea has merit, or does that mean that the "would society be better off" question is of little value in evaluating the morality of a decision?

Prisoners actually serve society in some respects, but I think we would be able to recover as a whole. I don't see that many of them have any serious chance at rehabilitation, and while it may be horrendously inhumane, at least it wouldn't hurt my tax sheet.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-01-02 01:42pm

Ted wrote:Just to put another spin on the argument, but capital punishment is in itself a violation of human rights.

Under the UN Charter of Human Rights, capital punishment is in direct violation of it.

The US is one of the top violators of human rights through capital punishment, and if you decided to kill all prisoners in max security prisons then you'd get mass outcry from the human rights organizations, etc... as well as from the UN itself.

A UN Charter on human rights?

*spits in disgust*

We don't take those kinds of things here seriously south of the mason-dixon line, boy...

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-01-02 01:43pm

Ted wrote:Just to put another spin on the argument, but capital punishment is in itself a violation of human rights.

Under the UN Charter of Human Rights, capital punishment is in direct violation of it.

The US is one of the top violators of human rights through capital punishment, and if you decided to kill all prisoners in max security prisons then you'd get mass outcry from the human rights organizations, etc... as well as from the UN itself.

When was the last time the US listened too the Un aganist a decision in the US? Never. The US only uses the UN as a puppet when it wants such as Iraq.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-01-02 01:46pm

You'd probably have a case of genocide on your hands if you wiped out the maximum security population. Given that the US prison population is roughly estimated at 1.7 million, killing a mere 10% of that number would be a massive killing spree. If you can live with state mandated murder on such a scale, then go ahead and do it. But I think the public uproar and widespread international condemnation that you would certainly spark with such an action would make you pause and reconsider.

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-01-02 01:54pm

A country has the mandate to protect its citizens.
Killing them, even if those are criminals, is just wrong.
To kill another is just wrong, wether you do it as a "normal person" or as a country.

And added to it, you have a fair chance of killing innocent people. After all, the system(s) are far from perfect and flawless.

So I say that society would be worse off. It would have crossed a line I'd rather not cross.

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2003-01-02 02:05pm

Rather than shoot prisoners we should use them as cheap labor.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-02 02:25pm

Rather than shoot prisoners we should use them as cheap labor.

We do, where do you think Licsence Plates and Goverment Desk/Tables comes from?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2003-01-02 02:33pm

Seriously the problem lies in the fact people can stay on Death Row so long

My simple solution is slaping time-limts on all sentances that CAN NOT be worked around, Even if your in the middle of a Bloody Trial-To bad

Seems harsh?
Today the avarage prisoner can stay alive between 7-34 Years in one case if they keep getting new Trials

Fine,

Lets cut the Shit, 5 Years, No more no Less, Fives Years from the Day you are convicted you die, there are not contuances, only pardons or excutions

You get three trials during that period, two you can opt for, one is automatic during your Fourth Year

Oooh and FWI to the Person who said 1.7 Million people?

Nope no where near that close, Maxinium Secruity Prisons Nationwide only have enough room for 800,000 People according to my old Alminac here(2,000) and NOT all of those are filled to capacity

And since Doubling the Prisons would have made the news I think the number is quite less, prehaps 200,000 or so
14,521 of Which are on Death Row(I have that number on Hardcopy 2001, I'll try and find a online versions someplace)

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-02 04:47pm

Darth Wong wrote:If every prisoner in every maximum-security prison was executed by gunshot tomorrow (no hearing, no clemency, no exceptions), would society be better off, or worse off?

More than likely, yes. Then again, summarily executing every creationist would make society better off, as well. Doesn't mean we should do it.

Not that I'm seriously proposing such a thing, but seriously, would society be better off? And if so, does that mean the idea has merit, or does that mean that the "would society be better off" question is of little value in evaluating the morality of a decision?

Frankly, I don't trust the justice system. It isn't ruled by facts so much as by fancy legal maneuvering, how convincing your lawyer is, and how gullible the jury is. I wouldn't be surprised if half the people in maximum security prisons were there because they are black or Hispanic, regardless of whether or not they actually committed the crimes they were convicted of. Furthermore, blacks and Hispanics will invariably get harsher sentences. So, while a white guy convicted of a crime might be in a medium-security prison for it, a black guy convicted of the same crime will probably go to a maximum security prison and serve more time. Given the numerous problems with the justice system in the US, you might as well be asking, "If we carpet-bombed the entire Southern United States, would society be better off?" Probably, but you'd also be killing one of my best friends who recently moved there from up here. Not everyone in the South is a bigot, and not everyone in prison is guilty or deserving of being there.

In addition, it's the government's problem if all these people learn how to do is become better criminals. They have the gall to call it "The Department of Corrections," even though there are no corrections being made. If they called it "The Department of Punishment," fine. At this point, prisons are nothing more than hostile environments where criminals' attitudes and psychological problems are exacerbated rather than corrected. The whole criminal justice system is a farce.

Tosho · Post by **Tosho** » 2003-01-02 04:57pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Rather than shoot prisoners we should use them as cheap labor.
We do, where do you think Licsence Plates and Goverment Desk/Tables comes from?

I forgot about that.

irishmick79 · Post by **irishmick79** » 2003-01-02 04:57pm

Hey Bean,

I cited the 1.7 million figure as an estimate of the General inmate population, and not specifically the max security population. I just wanted to make the point that even if the max security population was a mere 10% of that figure, it would still be a large number of people.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-02 05:03pm

If they just magically disappeared then undoubtably society would be better off. However, having them all wake up dead (:D) would harm socieyt because of the moral complications. IMHO, of course.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-02 06:42pm

If we had the technology, then I'm sure we could go by with brainwashing the criminals into good citizens.

Oh, and you can use them to test out pharmaceuticals aimed for humans.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-02 06:47pm

Shinova wrote:If we had the technology, then I'm sure we could go by with brainwashing the criminals into good citizens.

I've always wondered how Babylon 5's "Death of Personality" idea would be accepted today if we could ever implement it. It sounds like a pretty good idea to me, although I think that the criminal should be informed of his or her past after the mind-wipe.

Oh, and you can use them to test out pharmaceuticals aimed for humans.

Interesting idea, although I'm not sure how many scientists would actually want this to happen or if a scientific ethics board would condone such action.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2003-01-02 06:48pm

Society would be batter off in that there would be more money to go around. It is more of a morality question. Rights of a criminal, the chance that he was wrongfully commited for the crime. If we were sure that they commited the crime I wouldn't have a problem.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-02 06:52pm

Step one, develop a foolproof truth drug. Step 2 administer it to everyone. Step 3 shoot the people who deserve to be shot. Granted, getting step one done 100% correctly is going to be a bitch, but that's where the medical testing on convicts will help us out in the short run. Doing that should be easy, just offer a few priveliges and require them to sign a waiver before we inject the funky new serum into them.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-01-02 07:38pm

Mr Bean wrote:
Rather than shoot prisoners we should use them as cheap labor.
We do, where do you think Licsence Plates and Goverment Desk/Tables comes from?

Yes, but with them doing unpaid labor, the poor Chinese kids will be out of work, and have no money for anything.

Anyway, if all criminals were killed, we would be better off, there would be more money for other things since funding isn't going into prisons, but people would be bitching about it endlessly, it's likely some innocent people were killed, and it would make the government mass murderers. Also, the police would be out of work, until more criminals surface.

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-02 07:44pm

consequences wrote:Step one, develop a foolproof truth drug. Step 2 administer it to everyone. Step 3 shoot the people who deserve to be shot. Granted, getting step one done 100% correctly is going to be a bitch, but that's where the medical testing on convicts will help us out in the short run. Doing that should be easy, just offer a few priveliges and require them to sign a waiver before we inject the funky new serum into them.

Is this to everyone in society or just those arrested or convicted? Cause if this is for everyone, there's going to be damage. Major damage.

One example: The English language as we know it would be shot to hell. Much of our speaking and writing style is based on metaphors, which are in an essence, lies. And we also have much irony in our language.

For example, if we were given truth serums, instead of saying, "God, this headache is killing me!" We'd be forced to say, "My headache is very painful". Our everyday speech would become completely objectively based, and EXTREMELY boring.

Also we'd all lose our capabilities for imaginative thinking or fiction. After all, they are also technically lies, and thus we wouldn't be able to speak, think, or write them down.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-02 07:50pm

I meant it to be something that wears off pretty quickly, permanent biochemistry adjustment was not on my agenda today. Maybe tomorrow, but certainly not today. And I did mean everyone in this godforsaken country, because if some of the criminals tested are innocent, that means people not in jail are guilty and need to be found.

Necro99 · Post by **Necro99** » 2003-01-02 08:06pm

That would OBVIOUSLY be good for society, but the one who ordered it would be hung by the crowd...

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-01-02 08:11pm

Shouldn't this topic be in SLAM, by the way?

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2003-01-03 01:20am

Actually, nothing happens except lots of flame war on webboards and newsgroups.

Tax dollars is a drop in the bucket and the deterrance effect is pretty much the same.

C.S.Strowbridge · Post by **C.S.Strowbridge** » 2003-01-03 07:15pm

You've simply got to compare the odds that the person is innocent vs. guilty, and redemable vs. irredemable.

I'd hazzard a guess that it would have an overall positive impact. But most people would remember the innocents that died, or the people who 'found Jesus (or Allah (or whatever))' while in prison, etc.

However, just cause it has an overall positive effect doesn't mean we should do it. Consider this, I read a poll where 70% of Americans believe Creationism is as valid as Evolution. Does this mean we should wipe out all Americans? ... Ok, bad example, but you get my meaning.

Modify the question some what to say, 'Three violent crimes and you're dead.' And I think that would be a policy that would gain more support.

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2003-01-06 04:35am

No. The end doesn't always justify the means.

Some have argued that abortion among the lower classes (ie: poor people, minorities) is a good thing, because it gets rid of people who would go on to commit crimes and drain the economy (which reeks of biological determinism, which is at best a pseudoscience used by every hate group you can think of to justify violence against supposed inferiors)... regardless of your feelings on abortion, I think you can see the illogic of that argument.

Just like I argued in the thread about the Death Star and whether or not its use was "evil" I would say that killing a bunch of defensless people for the "betterment of society," especially when said people are already being punished for their sins (against society) is not justifiable.

IIRC, the Soviety Union did something along these lines (well not exactly, they did exile a lot of people to Siberia or put them to work in camps)... kill them all let God (well, technically they didn't believe in God) sort them out.

No, I'd say don't do it. Besides, you'd just have to do it again in a few years after you'd disposed of all the bodies. And again, and again, as long as there are people with free minds...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-06 04:37am

Who the hell said anything about killing the underprivileged, the poor, etc? We're talking strictly about prisoners in maximum-security pen. These are not nice guys, folks. A large percentage of them will go on to hurt someone else once they get out.

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