Effective Crime Control

[aerius]

The topic of crime control has come up here in various gun control and video surveillance debates. Briefly summarizing, we have those who think more weapons restrictions and camera surveillance is the way to reduce crime. Others believe effective enforcement of existing laws and fixing up our laws and justice sytem is the way. There are of course other viewpoints, but these are the 2 themes that I see the most often. Given a clean sheet of paper to work with, how would you go about fixing the crime problems in your country? How would you balance off privacy rights and other such issues?

[InnerBrat]

Briefly summarizing, we have those who think more weapons restrictions and camera surveillance is the way to reduce crime. Others believe effective enforcement of existing laws and fixing up our laws and justice sytem is the way.

These are not mutually exclusive. At all.

[jaeger115]

I would try to give them more choices to work with, since some criminals do what they do when not given enough options to work with in life. Religion plays a part in it too, especially Christian fundamentalism, because it gives people unrealistic views of sexuality and that can cause confusion in the criminal. Rape often follows because the criminal is stuck between his religion and the needs of society.

[Falcon]

I would try to give them more choices to work with, since some criminals do what they do when not given enough options to work with in life. Religion plays a part in it too, especially Christian fundamentalism, because it gives people unrealistic views of sexuality and that can cause confusion in the criminal. Rape often follows because the criminal is stuck between his religion and the needs of society.

Thats quite frankly hogwash. No religion or society ever caused a rape, the only person responsible for rape is the rapist.

[Sir Sirius]

<:cough:>Deuteronomy 22:28-29<:cough:>Numbers 31:1-18<:cough:>

[jaeger115]

Thats quite frankly hogwash. No religion or society ever caused a rape, the only person responsible for rape is the rapist.

Yet the Old testament supports and sanctions rape.

[aerius]

Briefly summarizing, we have those who think more weapons restrictions and camera surveillance is the way to reduce crime. Others believe effective enforcement of existing laws and fixing up our laws and justice sytem is the way.

These are not mutually exclusive. At all.

Of course they aren't. To me an ideal system would keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. It would also provide a strong deterrant to people from commiting crimes, and when they do they'll be quickly tracked down and removed from society to be rehabilitated or locked up indefinitely. It would also respect the privacy and rights of law abiding citizens.

The question is, how would we go about setting up such a system?

[NecronLord]

Thats quite frankly hogwash. No religion or society ever caused a rape, the only person responsible for rape is the rapist.

Yet the Old testament supports and sanctions rape.

Their fault for believing the shit then. Their fault for not bothering to notice that rape is morally unnacceptable. Still their fault.

[Falcon]

Thats quite frankly hogwash. No religion or society ever caused a rape, the only person responsible for rape is the rapist.

Yet the Old testament supports and sanctions rape.

The old testament also advocates stoning disobediant children and offering the best of your flock for burnt offerings, but these things no longer apply to us today.

[Andrew J.]

Scott Adams once theorized that effective crime control would come about only after weapons of mass destruction become extremely easy to come by. The threat of catastrophic destruction by criminals would lead to the evoking of all privacy, and then the subsequent development of technologies and techniques that lead to the arrest and conviction of all criminals.

Of course, Scott Adams also theorized that this would lead to the collapse of society, as 100% of the population are criminals, leaving only the unusually devious the responsibility to incarcerate the rest of us, so there ya go.

[Falcon]

If weapons of mass destruction were easy to come by wouldn't there be a threat from someone who was either a) on drugs b) insane c) other msc mental imparement (retarded or something) getting these weapons and using them despite their consequences? I'm afraid that theory only works if everyone values their own life and remains mentally stable, which isn't happening...


technology can never stop crime either, though it can help detur it obviously

[Andrew J.]

If weapons of mass destruction were easy to come by wouldn't there be a threat from someone who was either a) on drugs b) insane c) other msc mental imparement (retarded or something) getting these weapons and using them despite their consequences?

First of all, Scott Adams draws the Dilbert comic strip, so the whole idea is a massive joke. Secondly, no, there is no threat whatsoever, since every single person, save Marilyn vos Savant, will be in jail.

[jaeger115]

If weapons of mass destruction were easy to come by wouldn't there be a threat from someone who was either a) on drugs b) insane c) other msc mental imparement (retarded or something) getting these weapons and using them despite their consequences? I'm afraid that theory only works if everyone values their own life and remains mentally stable, which isn't happening...


technology can never stop crime either, though it can help detur it obviously

Good point. That's where religious fundamentalism comes into play: It robs people of their love of life and replaces it with a love for what they think is watching over them.

[Falcon]

If weapons of mass destruction were easy to come by wouldn't there be a threat from someone who was either a) on drugs b) insane c) other msc mental imparement (retarded or something) getting these weapons and using them despite their consequences? I'm afraid that theory only works if everyone values their own life and remains mentally stable, which isn't happening...


technology can never stop crime either, though it can help detur it obviously

Good point. That's where religious fundamentalism comes into play: It robs people of their love of life and replaces it with a love for what they think is watching over them.

Where some religious fundamentalism comes into play. Some religions strictly forbid suicide you know...

[aerius]

One of the bigger problems as I see it is public attitude. To many people crime is someone else's problem. To them crime is something that the police, security, and government deal with, and they take no responsiblity of their own. Think about it, the media and society actually encourages you to co-operate with criminals instead of fighting back. Every time there's a robbery, rape, murder, mugging, or whatnot, there's the inevitable news report that tells you to just hand over your wallet, purse, etc. and co-operate with the perp to save your life, and then report the crime later on.

One of the dumbest things I've heard is the "use a cellphone to keep yourself safe from rapists, muggers, and thieves" garbage. This is strongly encouraged by the media among others. Think about it for a bit. You are a woman who's getting beaten and wrestled to the ground by a rapist, how they hell are you going to pull out your cellphone and dial 911 while getting the shit beat out of you?

Think about this from the criminal's viewpoint, you have a society filled with people who will likely co-operate with you when threatened. You can pick out targets, do your deed, and be long gone by the time the police can do anything about it. There's not much risk involved is there? The worst thing that can happen is for the cops to catch up with you eventually and you might go to jail. Chances of that happening aren't all that good, and as a criminal I'm not going to worry much about it. It IS like taking candy from a baby.

And here's where the fun begins. If a citizen decides to fight back against an attempted mugging, there's a good chance he can get nailed with a whole bunch of charges, even though he's acting in self-defense. Chances are he can beat the charges, but that's going to take a lawyer and a shitload of money and time. This also goes a long way to keeping the citizens from resisting and makes them easy targets for criminals. Nice system huh?

The first step towards fixing things would be to allow and encourage the citizens to fight back against criminals. If criminals know that there's a good chance they won't succeed, they'll be finding something easier to do. I doubt a robber would be at it for very wrong if he kept getting the shit beat out of him by his potential victims. Same thing goes for other criminals too, they ain't that stupid or brave. That's a first step, there's many other things we can do.

[jaeger115]

True. Damn true.

[jaeger115]

Where some religious fundamentalism comes into play. Some religions strictly forbid suicide you know...

Some do it because it goes against dogma. It doesn't necessarily mean respect for life.

[Wicked Pilot]

There is no real silver bullet to rid society of crime, but I would suggest the following actions:


1) Enforce laws on books, no matter how small. This is one of the prime actions used by the Guilani administration in NYC, and it worked extremely well. If this requires more police officers an judicial staff, then so be it.

2) Get rid of places for criminals to hide. Tear down crackhouses, light up public streets, etc.

3) Clean up grafitti and other signs of criminal activity. This basically follows the "broken window theory". People tend to treat well kept areas better than run down areas.

4) Make it harder for criminals to get their hands on firearms through whatever constitutional means available.

5) Turn prisons into strict disciplined environments that inmates would not want to return to. Also, offer vocational training those those who desire it, as to give them an option other than crime when they get out.

6) Get local community involved. Bridge trust between neighborhoods, and police officers. This is obviousily harder in some areas than others.

7) EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION! Improve the fucking schools goddamnit! This is especially needed in lower income, higher crime areas. Extend their hours, offer after school programs, motivate the children, teach them, and develop them into civicly minded, A-type people.

There, that is my take on reducing crime. Any thoughts? Additions?

[Falcon]

There is no real silver bullet to rid society of crime, but I would suggest the following actions:


1) Enforce laws on books, no matter how small. This is one of the prime actions used by the Guilani administration in NYC, and it worked extremely well. If this requires more police officers an judicial staff, then so be it.

You'd have to sweep the laws first or most people would find themselves in jail.

2) Get rid of places for criminals to hide. Tear down crackhouses, light up public streets, etc.

New crack houses would appear somewhere else, but it would be a good start.

3) Clean up grafitti and other signs of criminal activity. This basically follows the "broken window theory". People tend to treat well kept areas better than run down areas.

This was tried in inner cities, but grafitti appears faster than it can be removed.

4) Make it harder for criminals to get their hands on firearms through whatever constitutional means available.

This has been tried with an ever increasing severity for years now to no avail. Promoting private citizens to carry arms should be the goal, to make criminals afraid to attack people.

5) Turn prisons into strict disciplined environments that inmates would not want to return to. Also, offer vocational training those those who desire it, as to give them an option other than crime when they get out.

Forced hard labor should be a part of it too. Jail should be very bad place to go.

7) EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION! Improve the fucking schools goddamnit! This is especially needed in lower income, higher crime areas. Extend their hours, offer after school programs, motivate the children, teach them, and develop them into civicly minded, A-type people.

'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink' Schools cannot teach someone who doesn't want to learn, wanting to learn comes from parents teaching their kids the value of education early on more than anything else.

Sounds pretty good tho...

[Wicked Pilot]

You'd have to sweep the laws first or most people would find themselves in jail.

That's why it's good to have a competent District Attorney who knows how to properly prioritize. But yeah, there are some really stupid laws out there. Luckily, most aren't enforced.

New crack houses would appear somewhere else, but it would be a good start.

There are a finite number of uninhabited houses available for crimals to use. Since most gangsters aren't construction works, it would be hard for them to build new dwellings when old ones are demolished.

This was tried in inner cities, but grafitti appears faster than it can be removed.

Not if used with suggestion #1. If you go ride the subways of NYC, you will see that it can work. Also, there are new types of chemicals that can shield surfaces from paint.

This has been tried with an ever increasing severity for years now to no avail.

Yes, but it has always been half assed. Also, keep in mind, this is not a silver bullet cure, nor should you expect to see results instantly. This is a very long term action.

Promoting private citizens to carry arms should be the goal, to make criminals afraid to attack people.

I don't see that as a realistic goal. Most armed citizens, if suprised attacked, would probably not be able to use their firearm to defend themselves. They would instead lose it to the criminal. Also, criminals might be more inclined to shoot first, then rob, as opposed to rob first, shoot only if defended against.

Forced hard labor should be a part of it too. Jail should be very bad place to go.

That's what I say, keep it humane, but it don't have to be easy.

'You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink' Schools cannot teach someone who doesn't want to learn, wanting to learn comes from parents teaching their kids the value of education early on more than anything else.

Notice the emphasis on afterschool activities and extended hours. As an example, Washington D.C. started a pilot boarding school for underprivilaged children in 7th-12th grades. The kids would live on campus, in dorms, and would basically be with the school 24/5. They were well fed, given proper health/mental care, and taught by well trained and higly motivated teachers. The school has been a huge sucess, but is of course expensive to run, and cannot except all the children that apply each year.

[Shadow]

An effective way to worsen jails would be to place all criminals in small cells which are soundproofed to stop socialization and remove any fun from jail.

[Darth Wong]

There are two things that will keep someone on the straight and narrow:

1. Fear of punishment
2. Hope for the future

Most crime-prevention ideas focus on intensifying #1. Few seem to recognize that if #2 is not alleviated, the effectiveness of #1 will always be limited.

A lot of programs also focus on distraction, ie- instead of hope for the future, just distract the kids from their bleak situation through sports and discipline. I don't think that's anywhere near as effective as touted, to be honest. I think the effect is temporary.

People don't commit crimes when they believe they can make the legit lifestyle work for them; they have too much to lose.

[Falcon]

People don't commit crimes when they believe they can make the legit lifestyle work for them; they have too much to lose.

LOL tell that to the folks at Enron

You forget about white collar crime, crimes of passion, etc... Crimes, including violent crimes, happen from every social\economic status.

[Darth Wong]

People don't commit crimes when they believe they can make the legit lifestyle work for them; they have too much to lose.

LOL tell that to the folks at Enron

You forget about white collar crime, crimes of passion, etc... Crimes, including violent crimes, happen from every social\economic status.

Actually, the vast, VAST majority of violent crimes come from the lower-income lower-education bracket. Yes, white-collar crime is bad too. And no rule applies 100% across the board. But when you have millions of people who have absolutely no hope for the future and feel that they are already destined for the scrapheap of a society that is institutionally set against them and determined to make them fail, then you have the seeds of discontent and the roots of crime and violence.

Enron is bad. But make no mistake: this was stupid investors being swindled by a conman, and even the biggest conman is not remotely comparable to the asshole who robs a convenience store at gunpoint and shoots the clerk for $50 and a pack of cigarettes. If fraud and other forms of white-collar crime were the only crimes we had to worry about, we would probably sleep easier at night.

[Falcon]

People don't commit crimes when they believe they can make the legit lifestyle work for them; they have too much to lose.

LOL tell that to the folks at Enron

You forget about white collar crime, crimes of passion, etc... Crimes, including violent crimes, happen from every social\economic status.

Actually, the vast, VAST majority of violent crimes come from the lower-income lower-education bracket. Yes, white-collar crime is bad too. And no rule applies 100% across the board. But when you have millions of people who have absolutely no hope for the future and feel that they are already destined for the scrapheap of a society that is institutionally set against them and determined to make them fail, then you have the seeds of discontent and the roots of crime and violence.

Enron is bad. But make no mistake: this was stupid investors being swindled by a conman, and even the biggest conman is not remotely comparable to the asshole who robs a convenience store at gunpoint and shoots the clerk for $50 and a pack of cigarettes. If fraud and other forms of white-collar crime were the only crimes we had to worry about, we would probably sleep easier at night.

There might be millions of people with no hope for the future out there, but those arn't the people shooting clerks for 50 dollars, or even robbing banks for a few thousand. Considering how much money even unskilled labor can make doing even menial tasks, most criminals in first world countries would have to fit into the upper class crime catagory. People shooting clerks for 50 bucks are usually on drugs and need some cash for a quick fix, not people with no hope for the future at all.