Need help with Darkstar's follower!

[Isolder74]

You'll LOVE this:

Wrong. Just before that, an Imperial officer had just informed Piett that they were now in "attack position".

Which could any number of things. It could mean that the fleet is in formation, that they are now fully prepared, etc. Piet specifically says "hold here". He doesn't say "hold fire" or "hold the attack" he says "hold here". "Here" generally refers to position.

Basically "possition" may refer to things other than position but "here" means "position" and therefore the Imperial fleet at Endor needed to get closer according to this moron.

That would work if the imperial didn't immediatly open fire the instant the Falcon headed towards them meaning they could have fired on the rebels but were not doing so obviously based on their orders.

[Darth Servo]

Oh wonderful. We now have a "no-laser"/"one A-wing destroyed the Executor" idiot participating.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Wish I could see the hilarity, however, Deviant Art hates my ISP or loads very crappily.

[Darth Servo]

You aren't missing anything really. Just go read some of Mike's hatemail entries and you'll pretty much be reading the same shit.

[Darth Servo]

What the hell.

No, they weren't. Vader had ordered the hyperdrive on the Falcon disabled so that the rebels would be able to rescue Luke but NOT subsequently escape. Leia can't rescue Luke if she's dead. Notice there was not a single guard on the Falcon's landing platform and the troopers always attacked from the rear or the sides, consistant with a hearding pattern.

Except that Lando's betrayal was apparently totally unexpected. Vader also believed that he could convince Luke to join him or capture him himself. You say they were herding? I say they were in pursuit.

They DON'T NEED to inform the grunts of "every detail" to let them know that there are intruders on board but they are NOT to be killed. In fact when Obi-wan is finished turning off the tractor beam, there are two Stormtroopers wondering "do you know whats going on?" "Maybe its another drill". Here's a clue for the clueless: You DON'T KILL PEOPLE IN A DRILL. Giving the troops orders along the lines of "intruders matching this description are to be shot on sight, this is not a drill" won't result in two troops standing around wondering if it might be a drill.

Watching your comrades get shot and die would probably convince them that it wasn't a drill. That sort of thing doesn't happen during drills, which don't involve live fire. Furthermore, there's no evidence that these two troopers are actively engaged in any other part of the pursuit (then again, you can't tell them apart anyway).

Which clearly punched through the black body glove and NOT the armor?

You mean that it hit the armor? The shaft should be in front of the backpack if it went into the body glove.

Although, another arrow does just bounces off. It's posible that that this unlucky scout-trooper just got hit at a bad angle.

Where does it say that? And "protect" does NOT mean "make invulnerable". Furthermore, just because a trooper falls down doesn't automatically mean he's dead. In fact in ROTS we explicity saw some clones checking out the condition of some of their fallen comrades.

I'll concede the point.

The picture YOU already provided (I believe of Tasha and Worf) proves that. They were cutting out a wall and they were SLOWLY moving their phasers along the outline they needed.

I went back and watched the episode in question ("Too Short a Season" in case you were wondering) and they actually do it fairly quicjkly. They're not standing there for hours or even minutes. More like under a minute.

That talks about NOTHING ELSE. Not current events, not politics, not the weather. JUST SW vs ST. Every message board he visits he exclusively posts in just the vs forums, be it SD.net, his own failed forums or any of his disciples subsequent spin-offs.

Wow. A site that stays on the subject it was made about. Amazing.

They weren't "worried" about TIES heading towards the medical frigate. They were just reporting their direction of flight.

And Lando's comment regarding "draw their fire away from the cruisers"?

Lie. They managed to take out the shield system and picked off all but one of the droids trying to repair the thing.

So, if they have the pin-point accuracy to pick off a 1 meter high droid at about 40-50 kilometers, why not just shoot and disable the engines, which are much larger targets and stick out from the sides of the ship? That seems rather silly.

Another lie. wide beams can NOT "go through rock" AT ALL. Only the CONCENTRATED beam can do that.

Wrong.

But you have NO NUMBERS for this event. You don't even TRY to calculate how much rock was involved other than your "several cubic meters" which you clearly pulled out of your @$$. The explosion wasn't any bigger than that made by a few sticks of TNT.

IT was an eyeball guesstimate. And a few sticks of TNT are pretty damn powerful for an infantry portable weapon (especially a pistol).

Yes and your point is?

That you can base phaser firepower off that as well.

[Darth Servo]

I disagree with your 3 modes of 'doom' for the Enterprise. (which enterprise, btw?) And if we are bringing up superweapons, can we use the Scimitar and the Klingon Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked? The Defiant? Or the Borg? Or Species 84782? Q? The Jem-Hadar? Or, if we are going to limit it to TOS, how about the Tholians?

But: Tractor beam. Since there is very limited knowledge or use of energy modulation in Star Wars, the most likely way a tracto beam would work is a gravaton stream. Any Star Trek ship with shields could modulate the harmonics to deflect the gravatons. gravatons are very simple sub-atomic particles after all.

Lasers: Are you kidding? lasers would have no effect on shields! (in fact, they don't: Picard explained that laser weapons even lack the power to penetreate the Navigational Defelctor :TNG: The Outrageous Okona)

Nothing against Star Wars, I love it as much as Star Trek. . . BUT they simply don't have transphasic weapons, ablative armor, Warp speeds, Quantam Torpedos, anti-matter reactors, dimensional holograms, ect.

But the computers are more advanced. They aren't sentient because that leads to more than trouble; it gives them rights. Imagine a ship's computer given the same rights as a human or alien crewmen? Nasty issue, so computers are designed NOT to be sentient in Star Trek. (TOS:"The Ultimate Computer") A starship has one computer core, and that is not only able to regulate Matter/Anti-Matter reactions, magnetic shielding of the chamber, Warp field cohesion, Warp field harmonics, environmental controls, power systems, doors, interface units, impulse drivem the navigational deflector. . . should i keep going?

Dr. Soong built him. He also built Lore, another sentient AI.
In all, there are more than 'just Data':

* Automated Personnel Unit
* Dreadnought
* Emergent life-form
* Exocomp
* Landru
* M-5 computer
* Nanite
* Nomad
* Norman
* Rayna Kapec
* Ruk
* Soong-type androids:
o B-4
o Lore
o Data
o Juliana Soong Tainer
o Lal
* Vaal
* V'Ger

1: Only one core is need to function, each ship has at least one complete backup core. The Enterprise-D has 3.

2: Stars also produce multi-spectrum radiation, intense heat (related and not related to light)
2a. it was an 'energy beam' the Borg used. A laser is merely one kind of energy beam. Plus, the borg rotated the frequency of the beam to adapt to the Shields.
2b. From memory, it was more the fact that the Rivans were still killing each other than that they had Lasers that caused Picard's action, but you may be right.
2c. DATA
Talarian warships are limited to
neutral particle weapons,
high-energy X-ray lasers and
merculite rockets. No match for
the Enterprise, Captain.
2d. Citing conundrum is laughable, as the Lysians indeed did use the lasers against the Enterprise, to ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT: EXT. SPACE - THE ENTERPRISE (OPTICAL)

as it runs straight through the field of sentry pods.
We instantly draw A THIN LASER BEAM TYPE FIRE from the
pods that does nothing to the Enterprise. The
Enterprise returns with PHASER FIRE -- a series of
quick bursts, DESTROYING the pods with ease.

3. A transphasic torpedo can penetrate any energy shield and any physical object to and depth and then deliver a high yield anti-matter explosion. Right, just a 'fancy name', hum?

4. Targeting computers can't hit a hole in the death star 2 meters wide. Star Trek computers can target a single person from orbit. How about the computer's ability to generate life-like interactive holograms? Universal translaters? Transporters? All much more advanced computer tech.

Look, the Executer is the largest and most powerful ship in Star Wars, right? (Movies only, we DON'T want to bring all the books into this, do we?) It took one A-wing crashing into the bridge to destroy it completely, so. . . The USS Voyager armed with 1 transphasic torpedo and a cloaking device could flatten it. (Transphasics can be fired while cloaked) One torpedo to the bridge. The end.

BTW. . . you're kinda rude.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Well, I'm not gonna bother with the rest, but, I'd like to see the evidence that the transphasic torpedo can go through shields or that it would work through Star Wars shields, or that it has the power of multiple anti-cap ship Protorps in addition to the explosion of the A-Wings generator which produces enough energy for hundreds of kiloton level shots, then what he expects the Executor to run into, because taking out the main bridge would only cripple it momentarily if they were in space.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Oh, and remind him that you can't actually see the beam of a laser with your eye and that they propogate at about c, which Blaster technology doesn't, then remind him that lasers do not create explosions unless they heat up something flammable.

[Batman]

Oh WTH, I'm bored.

I disagree with your 3 modes of 'doom' for the Enterprise. (which enterprise, btw?) And if we are bringing up superweapons, can we use the Scimitar and the Klingon Bird of Prey that can fire while cloaked? The Defiant? Or the Borg? Or Species 84782? Q? The Jem-Hadar? Or, if we are going to limit it to TOS, how about the Tholians?

Come one, come all given that they would collectively leave alone individually be chewed up and spit out by the Empire.

But: Tractor beam. Since there is very limited knowledge or use of energy modulation in Star Wars,

Not that I'm entirely sure what this guy means, here.

the most likely way a tracto beam would work is a gravaton stream. Any Star Trek ship with shields could modulate the harmonics to deflect the gravatons.

Which is why Trek ships under shields are completely unaffected by gravity. Oh wait.

gravatons are very simple sub-atomic particles after all.

And here I thought gravitons were the theorized carriers of gravity that have yet to be experimentally verified to exist...

Lasers: Are you kidding? lasers would have no effect on shields! (in fact, they don't: Picard explained that laser weapons even lack the power to penetreate the Navigational Defelctor :TNG: The Outrageous Okona)

Proven wrong by several episodes were lasers, sometimes of pitiful power, DO affect the shields. Irrelevant to boot as TLs cannot possibly be lasers.

Nothing against Star Wars, I love it as much as Star Trek. . . BUT they simply don't have transphasic weapons,

which have yet to be shown to work against anybody but the Borg,

ablative armor,

which we've had for decades in the real world,

Warp speeds,

which are pitifully slow compared to hyperdrive,

Quantam Torpedos,

which are photon torpedoes set to 'blue' apparently, the yield of which is nothing to brag about,

anti-matter reactors,

whivh would be hard-pressed to power a single MTL leave alone a Star Wars warship,

dimensional holograms, ect.

ANY hologram is dimensional by definition. Namely, three dimensional. That's the POINT of a hologram. Guess what-Wars has those, too.

But the computers are more advanced. They aren't sentient because that leads to more than trouble; it gives them rights. Imagine a ship's computer given the same rights as a human or alien crewmen?

Why would it? IF you want to argue it SHOULD that's a whole new ballgame, but as we know for a fact that Trek is completely capable of discriminating against 'lesser' intelligences if it suits them ('photonics' in VOY) why would that be a problem= Especially as we know for a fact it ISN'T in Wars, they just discriminate against droids?

Nasty issue, so computers are designed NOT to be sentient in Star Trek. (TOS:"The Ultimate Computer") A starship has one computer core, and that is not only able to regulate Matter/Anti-Matter reactions, magnetic shielding of the chamber, Warp field cohesion, Warp field harmonics, environmental controls, power systems, doors, interface units, impulse drivem the navigational deflector. . . should i keep going?

Yes, please do, because EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM goes down if the single computer core does. Redundancy is for weenies, apparently.

Dr. Soong built him. He also built Lore, another sentient AI.
In all, there are more than 'just Data':
* Automated Personnel Unit
* Dreadnought
* Emergent life-form
* Exocomp
* Landru
* M-5 computer
* Nanite
* Nomad
* Norman
* Rayna Kapec
* Ruk
* Soong-type androids:
o B-4
o Lore
o Data
o Juliana Soong Tainer
o Lal
* Vaal
* V'Ger

That's 19 on my count. In Wars sentient AI is so prevalent that a moisture farmer can afford to use one to talk to his farm equipment, they're used to serve drinks, are generally all over the place. We see more droids than that in the OT alone. And UNLIKE Trek, they're NOTHING SPECIAL. Every time one of those sentient AIs showd up in Trek it was at the center of the episode/movie because it was so fucking unusual.

1: Only one core is need to function, each ship has at least one complete backup core. The Enterprise-D has 3.

Which have a nasty tendency to go offline all at once, apparently. I can't recall a single episode where they lost the primary core and switched to one of the backups with minor hassle. They either lose most computer functions, or they don't.

2: Stars also produce multi-spectrum radiation, intense heat (related and not related to light)

IOW the shields are NOT immune to EM radiation. Three guesses as to what a laser is.

2a. it was an 'energy beam' the Borg used. A laser is merely one kind of energy beam.

They EXPLICITELY CALLED IT A LASER ASSHAT.

Plus, the borg rotated the frequency of the beam to adapt to the Shields.

Never ever mentioned throughout the episode. It's the Feds who use the frequency rotation trick, not the Borg. They merely adapt to it.

2c. DATA
Talarian warships are limited to
neutral particle weapons,
high-energy X-ray lasers and
merculite rockets. No match for
the Enterprise, Captain.

Which support shields immunity to lasers how?

2d. Citing conundrum is laughable, as the Lysians indeed did use the lasers against the Enterprise, to ABSOLUTELY NO EFFECT

I suggest you rewatch the episode-the Big E vas shaking form a laser hit that hat the energy equivalent of a truck ramming her.

3. A transphasic torpedo can penetrate any energy shield and any physical object to and depth and then deliver a high yield anti-matter explosion. Right, just a 'fancy name', hum?

Yes, as we NEVER EVER SEE THEM DO THAT. The one and only time transphasic torpedoes were used, they defeated Borg shields. Therefore, they can-defeat Borg shields. That's ALL they can do. For all we know they are defeated by plywood.

4. Targeting computers can't hit a hole in the death star 2 meters wide.

At high speed in a heavy jamming environment.

Star Trek computers can target a single person from orbit.

But regularly miss ships that dwarf CVNs sitting still right next to them.

How about the computer's ability to generate life-like interactive holograms?

So?

Universal translaters? Transporters?

Protocol droids, which are a cheap household item, and teleporters. Next.

All much more advanced computer tech.

Complete non sequitur.

Look, the Executer is the largest and most powerful ship in Star Wars, right? (Movies only, we DON'T want to bring all the books into this, do we?)

Yes we do and no it isn't. That'd be the DS2, or if we discount that on account of being under construction, the DS1.

It took one A-wing crashing into the bridge to destroy it completely, so. . .

Complete hogwash. The ship was virtually undamaged after the crash, wish wouldn't have had ANY effect if the shields hadn't been down due to the Rebel fleet's bombardment, and it took the collision with the Death Star to take her down. Rewatch the movie sometime.

The USS Voyager armed with 1 transphasic torpedo and a cloaking device could flatten it.

VOY armed with any Fed weapon you care to mention could be safely IGNORED FOREVER.

(Transphasics can be fired while cloaked) One torpedo to the bridge.

Nice pyrotechnics as the shields deal effortlessly with what by Wars standards is a signal flare.

The end.

Of VOY, if Executor bothers to retaliate.

BTW. . . you're kinda rude.

And you're kinda stupid. Oh, and learn to spell.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Nice pyrotechnics as the shields deal effortlessly with what by Wars standards is a signal flare.

That's beautiful!

[Batman]

What the hell.
Except that Lando's betrayal was apparently totally unexpected. Vader also believed that he could convince Luke to join him or capture him himself. You say they were herding? I say they were in pursuit.

One wonders why Vader bothered to have the hyperdrive disabled then, what with nobody expecting Lando's betrayal and being confident he could turn Luke, or why not simply shoot the Falcon down once it was airborne...

Which clearly punched through the black body glove and NOT the armor?

moderately useless picture
You mean that it hit the armor? The shaft should be in front of the backpack if it went into the body glove.

Which it appears to BE from what little one can make out from that sorry excuse for a picture. Oops.

Although, another arrow does just bounces off. It's posible that that this unlucky scout-trooper just got hit at a bad angle.

Or it could be as everyone says and the evidence supports and it was a hit on the body glove.

That talks about NOTHING ELSE. Not current events, not politics, not the weather. JUST SW vs ST. Every message board he visits he exclusively posts in just the vs forums, be it SD.net, his own failed forums or any of his disciples subsequent spin-offs.

Wow. A site that stays on the subject it was made about. Amazing.

The point didn't just go right over your head, it did so high enough to reach geostationary orbit, apparently.

Lie. They managed to take out the shield system and picked off all but one of the droids trying to repair the thing.

So, if they have the pin-point accuracy to pick off a 1 meter high droid at about 40-50 kilometers, why not just shoot and disable the engines, which are much larger targets and stick out from the sides of the ship? That seems rather silly.

Because it's completely unheard of for engines to go kablooie and destroy the ship when they're damaged. Yeah, smart move when you're trying to capture.

Another lie. wide beams can NOT "go through rock" AT ALL. Only the CONCENTRATED beam can do that.

Wrong.
a picture
another picture, that clearly shows phasers to NOT work via DET

But you have NO NUMBERS for this event. You don't even TRY to calculate how much rock was involved other than your "several cubic meters" which you clearly pulled out of your @$$. The explosion wasn't any bigger than that made by a few sticks of TNT.

IT was an eyeball guesstimate. And a few sticks of TNT are pretty damn powerful for an infantry portable weapon (especially a pistol).

Too bad phasers do so via a completely unquantifiable chain reaction, then.
As your own picture shows. TNT blows stuff up by brute force. Phasers don't.

[Surlethe]

4. Targeting computers can't hit a hole in the death star 2 meters wide. Star Trek computers can target a single person from orbit. How about the computer's ability to generate life-like interactive holograms? Universal translaters? Transporters? All much more advanced computer tech.

By this idiot logic, we can conclude that a man who can hear a pin drop in a completely empty gym has better hearing than a man who can't quite hear a pin drop in a gym packed full with screaming fans.

Also, it should be noted that the Empire is quite capable of producing interactive holograms a priori (ignoring the holograms living in holocrons): they possess AI and they have transportable hologram projector technology. Incidentally, you could throw the logic of his second argument right back at him: Star Wars has transportable hologram technology that can fit into a single handheld disk; therefore, its computers must be more powerful.

Incidentally, the logic looks somewhat like, A can't do B. Therefore, B is superior in every respect to A.

Look, the Executer is the largest and most powerful ship in Star Wars, right? (Movies only, we DON'T want to bring all the books into this, do we?) It took one A-wing crashing into the bridge to destroy it completely, so. . . The USS Voyager armed with 1 transphasic torpedo and a cloaking device could flatten it. (Transphasics can be fired while cloaked) One torpedo to the bridge. The end.

Last I checked, it took running into three billion cubic kilometers of battlestation to blow it up. Oh, and the largest and most powerful ship in Star Wars is the second Death Star, but that can be forgiven.

[Vympel]

This is clearly getting into "arguing with total blithering morons" territory. (finger itches over the lock button)

[glass]

Last I checked, it took running into three billion cubic kilometers of battlestation to blow it up.

I could have sworn there is a line in one of the novels that says something like 'noone in the fleet would have mourned the passing of the Death Star if it hadn't taken the Executor with it in its death throes', strongly implying that it survived even that collision.

Unfortunately I can't remember where it came from.


glass.

[Darth Wong]

Incidentally, the logic looks somewhat like, A can't do B. Therefore, B is superior in every respect to A.

Oldest form of Trekkie logic in the book, most commonly applied to transporters. Funny thing is that they always reject this same logic when it gets thrown back in their face with examples going the other way, like mass-produced sentient droids, hyperdrives, lightsabres, seismic charges, superlasers, etc.

Look, the Executer is the largest and most powerful ship in Star Wars, right? (Movies only, we DON'T want to bring all the books into this, do we?) It took one A-wing crashing into the bridge to destroy it completely, so. . . The USS Voyager armed with 1 transphasic torpedo and a cloaking device could flatten it. (Transphasics can be fired while cloaked) One torpedo to the bridge. The end.

Last I checked, it took running into three billion cubic kilometers of battlestation to blow it up. Oh, and the largest and most powerful ship in Star Wars is the second Death Star, but that can be forgiven.

This one is not so much faulty logic as an outright lie, seriously misrepresenting what happened in that battle. Second oldest Trekkie trick in the book. There's nothing new here, that's for sure.

[Isolder74]

Last I checked, it took running into three billion cubic kilometers of battlestation to blow it up.

I could have sworn there is a line in one of the novels that says something like 'noone in the fleet would have mourned the passing of the Death Star if it hadn't taken the Executor with it in its death throes', strongly implying that it survived even that collision.

Unfortunately I can't remember where it came from.


glass.

Its obvious from the film that the ship no longer funtions after the collision. We don't see if the remains had become a new spire for the station but it was now a none issue in the battle. If there were survivors then they could do nothing about what was happening around them. The quote may only be referring to the fact the commandship was lost in the battle as well increasing Imperial confusion.

[Raesene]

Last I checked, it took running into three billion cubic kilometers of battlestation to blow it up.

I could have sworn there is a line in one of the novels that says something like 'noone in the fleet would have mourned the passing of the Death Star if it hadn't taken the Executor with it in its death throes', strongly implying that it survived even that collision.

Unfortunately I can't remember where it came from.


glass.

Pellaeon in 'Heir to the Empire', first chapter; before he informs Thrawn that the scout vessels returned (IIRC, don't have the book with me)

The explosion running along the ship looked like it destroyed the ship to me, but didn't Lando and Wedge fire immediately after the Executor went down ? Maybe thus the 'death throes'

[glass]

Its obvious from the film that the ship no longer funtions after the collision. We don't see if the remains had become a new spire for the station but it was now a none issue in the battle. If there were survivors then they could do nothing about what was happening around them. The quote may only be referring to the fact the commandship was lost in the battle as well increasing Imperial confusion.

Obviously it was out of the battle, but it was all in one piece, which in itself was a major achievement in the circumstances.

I was just trying to supply another nail for the 'executor has a glass jaw' argument's coffin.


glass.

[glass]

Pellaeon in 'Heir to the Empire', first chapter; before he informs Thrawn that the scout vessels returned (IIRC, don't have the book with me)

I thought TTT initially, but I thought I would remember if it was from there, as its not long since I read it. Weird.

The explosion running along the ship looked like it destroyed the ship to me

I took the fire to be a sign of damage to the DS2 as much as the Executor. After all, the latter had shields, the former didn't. I'm not saying the Executor got away without a scratch, or even that it wasn't crippled, just that is wasn't destroyed (as say, the Enterprise would have been on hitting the DS2).


glass.

[Isolder74]

Its obvious from the film that the ship no longer funtions after the collision. We don't see if the remains had become a new spire for the station but it was now a none issue in the battle. If there were survivors then they could do nothing about what was happening around them. The quote may only be referring to the fact the commandship was lost in the battle as well increasing Imperial confusion.

Obviously it was out of the battle, but it was all in one piece, which in itself was a major achievement in the circumstances.

I was just trying to supply another nail for the 'executor has a glass jaw' argument's coffin.


glass.

The point is we don't know how much of the vessel was still intact after the collision. We have no real way of knowing how much of the ship still existed afterwards as we do not see the ship ever again after that point. Whatever was left, when the Death Star went anything savagable was definatally gone forever.

The main point is that it was the collision with the Death Star that killed the ship not the ramming from the A-Wing. The latter just lead to the former.

[Raesene]

[...]

The explosion running along the ship looked like it destroyed the ship to me

I took the fire to be a sign of damage to the DS2 as much as the Executor. After all, the latter had shields, the former didn't. I'm not saying the Executor got away without a scratch, or even that it wasn't crippled, just that is wasn't destroyed (as say, the Enterprise would have been on hitting the DS2).


glass.

Just watched the scene (in bad quality ) and could not see any wreckage moving away which I remembered - the flames could really come from the death star's internal atmosphere.

The Lusankya when ramming the Vong worldship and penetrating with the stinger that was built into her left ther hull on the surface of the worldship (or something, don't have the book at hand)

Nevertheless, the transphasic torpedo yield should better be a good one or compartmentation would keep her in the fight.

[Darth Servo]

This is clearly getting into "arguing with total blithering morons" territory. (finger itches over the lock button)

Oh come on Vympel, we're having fun.

[DPDarkPrimus]

The only reason the Executor went down was because it was too close to the DS2 for the secondary bridge(s?) to maneuver away when it began to stray off-course.

It's a fact that there's at least one other bridge on the Executor- I rembember seeing it in the ICS.

[Darth Servo]

It's a fact that there's at least one other bridge on the Executor- I rembember seeing it in the ICS.

By all means, post it

[Batman]

Nevertheless, the transphasic torpedo yield should better be a good one or compartmentation would keep her in the fight.

That yield had better be absurd because on top of that, it'll have to blow through the shields first...