Non-human relationships (Hypothetical.)

[Molyneux]

I wasn't entirely sure whether to put this here or in ARSE, but as it focuses on the ethics of the matter rather than the mechanics I figured here would be better.


Suppose the existence of an intelligent, biological, but decidedly nonhuman race.

The precise nature of the race does not matter at this point- just that they are sufficiently distinct from humanity for pregnancy not to be possible, but close enough that physical sexuality of some type is workable. This race has at least two genders and reproduces in some sexual way, or has the capacity for sexual pleasure.

Given the above conditions, what possible ethical concerns could arise from the possibility of romantic or explicitly sexual relationships between humans and members of this species? Should it be termed bestiality, or placed on the same level as miscenegation (a practice not condemned by most humans at this point), or considered a category of its own? What of pair-bonding, if the race in question does in fact form longterm mating pairs? What if the standard for this race is sexual openness, or stable groups of more than two members?

Should marriages, with all the many legal implications thereof, be allowed between humans and these creatures? What of adoption, or artificial insemination of one of the members of the pair?


Given that these creatures have some minimum standard for sentience...what minimum should there be? Would the ability to speak English be necessary? What about a creature that can communicate through text or visual cues? How intelligent would a creature have to be that dating one would be distinct from, say, spending Saturday nights with livestock (if I may be so crude)?


Now, think of the specifics. What effect does it have on the above questions if the race is entirely alien, or a natural species 'uplifted' to sentience, or a completely artificial species of human design? Would it matter the body structure of the creature - bipedal, or quadrupedal, or 'taur-shaped or gas-bladdered tentacled balloons?



This was inspired by a comment in the wonderful book "Asimov's Galaxy", a collection of the author's essays. It can be taken literally, as a question that has a decent likelihood of arising within the next four or five hundred years, or as a metaphor for, say, gay marriage or some other issue-of-the-moment.

What do you think?

[Superman]

Do they have boobies? If so, I'm in!

[the wicked prince]

I imagine mutual consent is enough. Personally it won't be for anybody but the desperate, unless there are physical cues similar enough to humans

[Grandtheftcow]

I imagine mutual consent is enough. Personally it won't be for anybody but the desperate, unless there are physical cues similar enough to humans

People are often enough attracted to strange things.

I can see a fair number of people getting their motors revved at the thought of awkward alien sex.

[Covenant]

I imagine mutual consent is enough. Personally it won't be for anybody but the desperate, unless there are physical cues similar enough to humans

People are often enough attracted to strange things.

I can see a fair number of people getting their motors revved at the thought of awkward alien sex.

Agreed. If people can treat their pet Dogs, a horse, or a car like they would treat children... then I don't see how they couldn't get excited about alien romance, especially if there is caring back and forth. People have a seemingly unlimited capacity for misplacing emotions, or attempting to copulate with odd things. Given the galaxy of sexual hardware already available for men and women, provided that the alien has some form of hand or gripping appendage, there's going to be capability for intimacy in terms of physical satisfaction. The rest is mental.

[Zor]

Two concenting sapient beings marring, i see no reason how this harms society/indivuals. As such, there is no jusfication for banning it.

Zor

[Molyneux]

Interesting...it seems that my opinions in the matter coincide with most of the people on the board - at least with those people who saw fit to post here.

The question is, now, should I re-post this little essay on a right-wing forum and see if their heads explode?

[Grandtheftcow]

Interesting...it seems that my opinions in the matter coincide with most of the people on the board - at least with those people who saw fit to post here.

The question is, now, should I re-post this little essay on a right-wing forum and see if their heads explode?

I assume with if you posed the question to a right thinking person you'd get instant comparisons to homosexuality and bestiality plus a few nuts who'd argue that intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is impossible.

If you do post this elsewhere may I request you paste some the responses? It's always interesting trying to figure out the logic and thought processes that come along with different points of view.

[Broomstick]

The precise nature of the race does not matter at this point- just that they are sufficiently distinct from humanity for pregnancy not to be possible, but close enough that physical sexuality of some type is workable.

Well, that certainly leaves a range of possibilities, now doesn't it!

This race has at least two genders and reproduces in some sexual way, or has the capacity for sexual pleasure.

Why would "at least two genders" be necessary? Couldn't hermaphrodites play, too?

Should it be termed bestiality, or placed on the same level as miscenegation (a practice not condemned by most humans at this point), or considered a category of its own?

If all parties are sentient on a human level (or near it) I couldn't consider it bestiality.

Miscenegation? I don't think the term fits this situation without a lot of stretching. Some folks would see it as such, but I would not.

Probably a category all it's own. Or else we expand some other term we're currently using to incorporate sentient non-humans in our relationships.

What of pair-bonding, if the race in question does in fact form longterm mating pairs?

The biggest consequence would be lack of reproduction. At least for the human race at present, we don't have a shortage of new people so it's not really an issue. Assuming the other race is likewise not suffering from a population shortage I don't see how this is different than human long-term relationships on the surface, although there may be complicating details. It's just that in this case the pair would be cross-species instead of cross-gender.

What if the standard for this race is sexual openness, or stable groups of more than two members?

There is precendent in human societies for such - humans, at least, are adaptable to that extent.

Of course, most modern societies assume two in a pair. A human raised in such a society may have trouble with the alien standard, but in that case it would depend on the adaptability of individuals on both sides of the relationship. In fact, reserved members of an "open" species may opt for pair relationships given a chance, just as some human individuals do well in polygamous groups.

This may result in a triple standard in the end - a norm for human-human, human-alien, and alien-alien groupings. Before that point, however, there would be legal complications and possibly some minor social upheaval. Or laws/customs could turn against human-alien groupings and each impose each group's norm on that group.

Should marriages, with all the many legal implications thereof, be allowed between humans and these creatures?

Why not?

What of adoption, or artificial insemination of one of the members of the pair?

How would that be different that human couples adopting, artificially inseminating, or what have you?

Given that these creatures have some minimum standard for sentience...what minimum should there be?

The creatures should be somewhere within the range of human norms for intelligence, self-awareness, etc.

Would the ability to speak English be necessary?

Most countries in the world don't require English speaking for marriage. This would also leave out many deaf humans. Perhaps you could have phrased that better?

What about a creature that can communicate through text or visual cues?

I'd say there'd have to be some form of mutally understood communication, without specifying what form that communication must take.

How intelligent would a creature have to be that dating one would be distinct from, say, spending Saturday nights with livestock (if I may be so crude)?

At least human norm, or near it.

Now, think of the specifics. What effect does it have on the above questions if the race is entirely alien, or a natural species 'uplifted' to sentience, or a completely artificial species of human design? Would it matter the body structure of the creature - bipedal, or quadrupedal, or 'taur-shaped or gas-bladdered tentacled balloons?

I don't see much relevance to these factors.

Oh, sure, it's going to be MUCH easier to carry on a meaningful relationship with, say, an artifically created satyr or elf that can speak human languages and is roughly the same size/shape as humans (as random examples) than a water-breathing squid-thing where sex is complicated by the fact you breathe two different atmosphere, your sex organs may not be very compatible, and your manipulating appendages vary greatly, and you'll need to learn to understand skin-color changes and the squid-thing will need to learn sign language for the two of you to communicate. But those are physical problems to work out, not moral or ethical issues.

Where it might get sticky is if you have a race where it is normal practice to, as an example, kill and eat your mate after intercourse. THAT would likely be a big obstacle to inter-species marriage, much less long-term relationships.

Other problems might arise if, say, the alien species undergoes metamorphosis. What if the intelligent part of the life cycle doesn't have sex, but the sexual form isn't sentient? What about consent in that case? But would such a sexual form even be attracted to humans? What if the non-sexual phase could sexually pleasure a human friend/companion? That's where it would start getting complicated, I think.

[Molyneux]

Interesting...it seems that my opinions in the matter coincide with most of the people on the board - at least with those people who saw fit to post here.

The question is, now, should I re-post this little essay on a right-wing forum and see if their heads explode?

I assume with if you posed the question to a right thinking person you'd get instant comparisons to homosexuality and bestiality plus a few nuts who'd argue that intelligent life elsewhere in the universe is impossible.

If you do post this elsewhere may I request you paste some the responses? It's always interesting trying to figure out the logic and thought processes that come along with different points of view.

Of course! ^_^ I'll post up any choice remarks. Any suggestions on places I might post it for interesting results?

Why would "at least two genders" be necessary? Couldn't hermaphrodites play, too?

My mistake...I completely disregarded this possibility, despite the fact that I'm currently writing a story with a race of that type. I was trying to imply a species that reproduces in a semi-standard way, rather than fission or budding or something.


Similarly, instead of 'speaking English' I intended it to be something along the lines of 'can vocally communicate and reproduce/understand Earth languages'.

How would that be different that human couples adopting, artificially inseminating, or what have you?

Well, I've heard some right-wing arguments that gay couples shouldn't be allowed to adopt or raise children - this seems, on the surface at least, like a similar situation.

[darthbob88]

Speaking for myself, if they have boobies and are roughly humanoid in scale and structure, I'd hit it. As for the rest of humanity...Internet Rule 34 states, roughly, "For any given concept, object, or individual, there exists either some individual(s) who are sexually aroused by it, or some form of pornographic material based upon it". Someone, somewhere, must think an Affronter is sexy, though I must wonder what sort of warped mind that person has.

[Vendetta]

Someone, somewhere, must think an Affronter is sexy, though I must wonder what sort of warped mind that person has.

The Affront are Hentai Tentacle Monsters. Been there, done that.


Anyway, if there was a sentient alien species with whom sex was pleasurable for both partners, I'd give it a try, just out of plain curiosity.

[TimothyC]

Am I the only one who thought Nutkins when they saw this thread?

[Vendetta]

Apparently so.

The first thing that crossed my mind was "Furries". But my mind is twised like unto a corkscrew.

[Molyneux]

Am I the only one who thought Nutkins when they saw this thread?

...what the heck is a Nutkin?

I was actually thinking of furries as well, at least in the context of 'uplifted' animals.

[General Brock]

I think I'm wondering what this hypothetical species would think...

[bilateralrope]

If all those involved are of legal age and are consenting, then I'll have no problem with it. However if they don't share a common language (or at least understand each others language if they are physically unable to speak it) then I will doubt if they actually are consenting.

Though I'm not sure I'd want to know the details of what actually happened.

[Darth Wong]

I think Galaxy Quest already depicted this, with Tech Sergeant Chen and the alien squid-beast.

As for marriage, it's a legal contract. The standard for all legal contracts is that both parties must be mentally competent to understand and agree to the contract, and I don't see how this would be any different.

[Molyneux]

...I really don't know the addresses of any right-wing-type forums; I don't make a habit of hanging out at them, with the exception of RHJunior's Livejournal (and there, it's not my place to start a topic).

[Grandtheftcow]

...I really don't know the addresses of any right-wing-type forums; I don't make a habit of hanging out at them, with the exception of RHJunior's Livejournal (and there, it's not my place to start a topic).

Google or Big Boards is the best way to locate potential forums. If you want to go with something more local and mixed politically try Startrek.com or TrekBBS. For the hilarity of it you could try any large Christian forum but you'd likely receive an instant ban.

[Utsanomiko]

Apparently so.

The first thing that crossed my mind was "Furries". But my mind is twised like unto a corkscrew.

I did as well, but preceded by "oh gravy, not this again, Molyneux!"

Let man and squid fuck and be merry, I guess.

I think Galaxy Quest already depicted this, with Tech Sergeant Chen and the alien squid-beast.

As for marriage, it's a legal contract. The standard for all legal contracts is that both parties must be mentally competent to understand and agree to the contract, and I don't see how this would be any different.

Naturally, it would thus be unrecognized and effectively banned in about 11 US states. It would remain opposed it by majority there for at least a century or two.

[Vendetta]

I think I'm wondering what this hypothetical species would think...

I suspect they'll have their fair share of freaks and weirdos as well.

[TimothyC]

Am I the only one who thought Nutkins when they saw this thread?

...what the heck is a Nutkin?

Nutkins are the aliens that showed up in TBO's Interstellar Highway, and are basically Squirel-Human furries (Stuart - If you see this correct me if I'm wrong!).

[Molyneux]

Am I the only one who thought Nutkins when they saw this thread?

...what the heck is a Nutkin?

Nutkins are the aliens that showed up in TBO's Interstellar Highway, and are basically Squirel-Human furries (Stuart - If you see this correct me if I'm wrong!).

Squirrel-human furry? ^_^

[TimothyC]

...what the heck is a Nutkin?

Nutkins are the aliens that showed up in TBO's Interstellar Highway, and are basically Squirel-Human furries (Stuart - If you see this correct me if I'm wrong!).

Squirrel-human furry? ^_^

Que a bit more squirrel than human.