Civil War #7 - Spoilers

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2007-02-21 06:57pm

So...has Marvel ever had a good company wide crossover? The closest thing I can think of is Age of Apocalypse, which suffers from NOT being company-wide (to a large extent) and very inconsistant writing from book to book.

Am I missing anything that Marvel has ever done well on a large scale?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-02-21 07:14pm

NeoGoomba wrote:So...has Marvel ever had a good company wide crossover? The closest thing I can think of is Age of Apocalypse, which suffers from NOT being company-wide (to a large extent) and very inconsistant writing from book to book.

Am I missing anything that Marvel has ever done well on a large scale?

Secret Wars is about as good as marvel got. Filled with bizarre side stories, the beginning of one of Spiderman's biggest changes, and of whole not horribly bad.

Most of the times, Crossovers such as this fail to do anything at the end, because the companies are scared to change.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2007-02-21 07:54pm

Some questions from someone who hasn't read this himself:

WHY did Cap choose to teleport both sides out onto the streets to fight it out?

-He already succeeded in freeing the captured heroes.
-As I said earlier in this thread, fighting Iron Man's forces wouldn't solve anything. Cap should have just gone underground and tried to sway the people against the registration act (it's not like his name, and Tony's actions didn't give him a ton of great propaganda material).
-Is there any reason why Cloak couldn't just teleport Cap's forces, and only Cap's forces?
-If you decide to fight it out (for some idiotic reason), why not try to keep the damage contained by staying inside the Baxter Building?

Was there an actual explanation of this, or is this a massive plot hole?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2007-02-21 07:59pm

Jim Raynor wrote:Some questions from someone who hasn't read this himself:

WHY did Cap choose to teleport both sides out onto the streets to fight it out?

-He already succeeded in freeing the captured heroes.
-As I said earlier in this thread, fighting Iron Man's forces wouldn't solve anything. Cap should have just gone underground and tried to sway the people against the registration act (it's not like his name, and Tony's actions didn't give him a ton of great propaganda material).
-Is there any reason why Cloak couldn't just teleport Cap's forces, and only Cap's forces?
-If you decide to fight it out (for some idiotic reason), why not try to keep the damage contained by staying inside the Baxter Building?

Was there an actual explanation of this, or is this a massive plot hole?

He tried to get the gateway to Riker's open but they stopped him, he then tried the same with the Baxter building and they stopped him again so Cloak was forced to teleport them out and because battle hand already been joined cloak couldn't pick out individuals to teleport (as I understand his powers).

Although I would think Wiccan could have done "IwanttoteleportthegoodguysIwanttoteleportthegoodguysIwanttoteleportthegoodguys".

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2007-02-21 08:55pm

That may have been one of the weakest endings ever written. It shied away from addressing every single one of the questions the series raised. This was an act of editorial cowardice.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2007-02-21 09:00pm

Manus Celer Dei wrote:Hercules putting the clone in his place. "THOU ART NO THOR!"

That in particular was especially stupid. Why did the "clone" have gadgetry instead of brains? Is one to conclude that Hercules's ham-fisted delivery of Lloyd Bentsen's hackneyed quip is what passes for 'cleverness' with Mr. Millar?

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2007-02-21 10:09pm

...completely weak ending.

Considering all the questions raised, the subplots showed (especially with the Stark using the Civil War to make himself billions or however much he made...) all left hanging....

What the hell man...about the only decent thing in the comic was Spidey in his black costume. Oh...and fuck Maria Hill and Stark. They've been pissing me off ever since the first issue.

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2007-02-21 11:07pm

DarkSilver wrote:What the hell man...about the only decent thing in the comic was Spidey in his black costume. Oh...and fuck Maria Hill and Stark. They've been pissing me off ever since the first issue.

I will admit to being curious as to what will happen with Hill and SHIELD in the war's aftermath. Whatever my complaints about the fourth New Avengers arc, "The Collective", it did show that Hill was on the side of angels -- after a fashion, anyway. But it still didn't answer the question of who in SHIELD was involved in those illegal operations from the start of New Avengers (as well as possibly the break-out from the Raft). With New Avengers finally returning to solving the mystery and Mighty Avengers launching simultaneously, I'll be most curious what role Tony's new coup will have on the storyline.

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2007-02-21 11:43pm

I'll have to go by the LCS and see if it really is that bad, because I'm thinking about how it's being discussed and considering how such an ending (in general) could be made to work.

I doubt my vision of reality is anywhere close to actual reality, but I'll dream for at least another day or two.

Kon_El · Post by **Kon_El** » 2007-02-22 12:01am

Majin Gojira wrote:I'll have to go by the LCS and see if it really is that bad,

Its worse.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2007-02-22 02:01am

So the moral of this story is that Rich Bad Guys Always Win. Thank christ I only bought the first two issues of this abortion of a comic miniseries.

When are they gonna retcon Parker's unmasking... (it's not a question of If, but When)

*sticks to Ex Machina and Star Wars comics, wonders about picking up Y The Last Man and 100 Bullets, maybe Morrison's run on JLA... finally, FUCKING, SICK AND TIRED, OF MARVEL'S BULLSHIT*

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-02-22 05:13am

Jim Raynor wrote:
What Cap really should be thinking is "Is what I'm fighting for worth causing this damage?" And what he's fighting for is saving dozens of his comrades from being locked up in a thinly-veiled Gitmo in some other dimension, or being forced into a government-controlled superhuman army.

His reasoning was that they were no longer fighting for the people, as they were causing damage and hurting people to fight for themselves and the people were clearly against him (attacking him to stop him from hurting Stark).

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2007-02-22 05:15am

Manus Celer Dei wrote:I thought it was really good ending, actually. Totally believable for Cap to do, and one of the few times I've respected the character.

And it wasn't just "property damage" that stopped him, it was the fact that innocent people were getting injured and killed because of the superheroes fighting. People were dying as a direct result of Captain America and his resistances actions. We saw some of the fight at ground-level in Frontline #10, although most were evacuated quickly, when the fight moved to the streets there was still a whole lot of civilians around and a whole lot of collateral damage.

Other high points:

Spiderman kicking Reed in the neck.
Hercules putting the clone in his place. "THOU ART NO THOR!"
Namor and his posse showing up. Gotta love the ol' IMPERIUS REX! battlecry.

I actually liked it as well.

I'm curious as to some thigns though. Why was Namor on Cap's side? And why did Spider-Man choose to remain underground when all the superheroes were offered amnesty and someone close to him had already been killed because of his actions?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2007-02-22 05:54am

Praxis wrote: His reasoning was that they were no longer fighting for the people, as they were causing damage and hurting people to fight for themselves and

That isn't right though, Spiderman makes a big internal monologue point about how they are fighting for the people although, to be honest, I have no problem with the Super heroes fighting for themselves any more than I have a problem with black people launching a civil rights campaign specifically for their rights because they were being the most victimised.

The "people" want to make them slaves to the government (and have succeeded looking at "The Initiative " solicits) so if they want to act like scum then Cap has an obligation to fight for the few remaining good guys.

the people were clearly against him (attacking him to stop him from hurting Stark).

They were against him from day one, they acted like a panicky mob willing to hand over civil rights (specifically those of the different folk) in order to get some illusory safety.
I think Cap was just shocked that
a) Americans would attack him, "the symbol of America"
b)that the American public really didn't care about truth, justice etc and were quite willing to discriminate against a minority
c)America isn't anywhere close to the idealised vision of it he had

That in my opinion broke his spirit and made him look for an easy excuse to quit so he acting upset about the damage any non moron would realise would result from the conflict.

No wonder the next Captain America arc is called "Death of the dream".

Majin Gojira · Post by **Majin Gojira** » 2007-02-22 07:31am

TheDarkling wrote:That in my opinion broke his spirit and made him look for an easy excuse to quit so he acting upset about the damage any non moron would realise would result from the conflict.

No wonder the next Captain America arc is called "Death of the dream".

Captain America, welcome to the Colbert Nation.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2007-02-22 12:38pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Edward Yee wrote:... *decides to stick to Punisher MAX*
Have you read the first issue of the Barracuda mini?

I did, and in comparison to what Civil War was advertised as (and to what it actually provided as stated here), it was much more honest in giving me the shits-n-giggles.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2007-02-22 01:11pm

Man, I can't believe you guys bought such shitty comic books and will continue to buy more in the foreseeable future

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2007-02-22 03:48pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Man, I can't believe you guys bought such shitty comic books and will continue to buy more in the foreseeable future

Maybe everybody should Byrne-steal from now on.

Edward Yee · Post by **Edward Yee** » 2007-02-22 04:29pm

After actually reading it today... I actually wasn't bothered, other than thinking that the sudden change in Cap's mindset was a tad bit abrupt for me, as presented in the comic; then again, I suppose I'm more used to longer, drawn-out internal drama scenes.

KrauserKrauser · Post by **KrauserKrauser** » 2007-02-22 04:36pm

I'd rather he had the thought provoking moment while he cleaning off Stark's brain matter from his shield after he beat the life out of that fucker.

How the fuck can they justify keeping the character that they have made Iron man into? They have removed all of his redeeming qualities and turned him into a government shill that used theWar to make billions. HE NEEDED TO DIE. Or atleast his cahracter needed to be brought back down to earth and I don't thrown in prison or something.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2007-02-22 04:43pm

KrauserKrauser wrote:I'd rather he had the thought provoking moment while he cleaning off Stark's brain matter from his shield after he beat the life out of that fucker.

Come on Hulk, please help us out here.

How the fuck can they justify keeping the character that they have made Iron man into? They have removed all of his redeeming qualities and turned him into a government shill that used theWar to make billions. HE NEEDED TO DIE. Or atleast his cahracter needed to be brought back down to earth and I don't thrown in prison or something.

It is even worse when you see him happy and smiling at the end, not to mention trying to grab some rack time with Ms Sharpe.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2007-02-22 04:46pm

You know what might redeem some of this? If it comes out somewhere down the line that those individuals that jumped Cap were paid off by Stark to do so before the fight as a contingency plan. Okay, so it is contrived as hell given the spontaneous outbreak of the battle, but there have to be some telepaths or shapechangers on Iron Man's side that could have made it happen.

The fact that they abandoned rescuing civvies and charged into the middle of that fight to tackle the one guy who could be swayed to stop the fight and had the ability to do so seems contrived as hell. Especially since it seemed to be a seven person perfectly coordinated tackle. To my cynical brain, that just screams telepathic coordination.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2007-02-22 04:52pm

Guys, Punisher War Journal #4 was the best read of the week.

Everyone should get it.

jimthegray · Post by **jimthegray** » 2007-02-22 05:15pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Jim Raynor wrote:I haven't been reading the actual comics (although I did see the "dubbed" Civil War parodies which were the same except for the dialogue), but I've been keeping up with this on the internet.

Captain America, who has been through actual war and faced world and universe-destroying threats, suddenly decides that the property damage caused in this issue's battle was going too far? Just like that he gives up, even though he's sure in his heart that registration is wrong? My ass.
He says something about how they are just fighting for fighting sake (when the damage is pointed out to him) and they can't win the argument through fighting (I could have told him that 6 issues back).

Of course he started getting upset when police men and firemen attacked him to save Tony Stark(vomit inducing scene # 2).

He even starts crying.

Disgruntled comic fans are calling this ending completely anticlimatic, and are already expecting all the changes from Civil War to be reversed in a few months by this summer's "big crossover event," World War Hulk (yes, they already had another crossover event planned before Civil War was even finished).
I think you are confusing expect with hope, everybody is hoping that registration and Stark will get hammered by the Hulk but I'm not sure it will.

you don't get it he did not surrender because he was beaten, he did it because he relised that he was the bad guy, he was wrecking the american dream, being the supervillian.
he was fighting against democracy.
it does not matter if he disagreed with the law, but he chose to use violance to try and change it.
he became a terrorist in the eyes of the normal humans.
it does not matter if the law is good or bad, when you start attacking jails, fighting even killing cops trashing midtown etc in opposition to the law you become the bad guy. he looked around and saw that violance was not goign to fix things, that the normals consider him the bad guy and saw that he was exactly why the normals want supers to be registered

jimthegray · Post by **jimthegray** » 2007-02-22 05:19pm

*****
a) Americans would attack him, "the symbol of America"
b)that the American public really didn't care about truth, justice etc and were quite willing to discriminate against a minority
c)America isn't anywhere close to the idealised vision of it he had
***********

a.) a symbol that was fighting against democracy
b.) what discrimiantion? they watn masked vigilanties from firing off military weapons in the streets with no legal oversight
c.) he was not acting like the ideailsed person he thought he was

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Civil War #7 - Spoilers

hmm