Battletech Vs. Star Trek

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-01-03 09:59am

Alright, I've got the Idea of a fan fic down. But I just need to know who would get the upper hand if a Clan battle fleet was pitted against a small feddie fleet, plus a large star base?

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-03 10:47am

Probably the feddies, Battletech space combat capabilities are about as low as they come. On the plus side they do have armor. On the minus side, that armor is pretty damned weak, and they have no shields at all, no tactical ftl, and their strategic ftl is easily anticipated once you know what your dealing with.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-03 12:16pm

The only advantage Battletech has is their FTL speeds. As for their weapons, their ranges max out at one or two kilometers. Federation ships have WAY longer range than that.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-03 12:33pm

30 LY per week is a speed Advantage?

I thought Star Trek was at least capable of 1500-2000C

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-01-03 02:35pm

Well that 30 LY is pretty much instantaneous so maybe that's what he meant

But seriously, BTech weapons aren't that hot.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-03 02:52pm

I think the comment about lasers vs. navigational shielding would be of relavence in this situation.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-01-03 03:59pm

Hmm... I don't know anything about BattleTech space combat capabilities, its not exactly what BT is know for... I do know they have anti-orbital ground batteries though, but I'm not sure what they're capable of.

Anyways, trying to pit an almost entirely space-borne civilization against a civilization that is basically grounded is a bit odd.

Post by **Coyote** » 2003-01-04 12:47am

While I think Trek would own the stars, ground combat would be a completely different story. Once the Fed away team saw their first 'mech, they'd soil themselves. It then comes down to how effective 'mechs would be dealing with orbital bombardment.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-04 01:12am

Coyote wrote:While I think Trek would own the stars, ground combat would be a completely different story. Once the Fed away team saw their first 'mech, they'd soil themselves. It then comes down to how effective 'mechs would be dealing with orbital bombardment.

For Mechs, "long range" is one kilometer. Screw orbital bombardment, one shuttlecraft could vape mechs at 3 km away.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-04 01:13am

Trek would rape Battletech space forces. The mecha could take on Trek ground troops with ease, but a couple shielded shuttles or runabouts would rape them as well.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-04 01:44am

Don't underestimate BT.

When you work out 30 LY a week, thats about 1500 per year (I.E. 1500c...). Many WarShips and Jump Ships can double that (Warp 9.96, I believe, is approximately 2000c...).

BT ground troops walk over Feddies...At least we HAVE tanks, and rifles, and grenades, and artillery (although the Clans don't use the first one and last one much, unless you count a mech as a tank...)

In space...Depends on which combat system:AT2 has minute long turns, but I don't think hex size is mentioned (someone correct me if wrong...) Battlespace gives each hex as 17.6km (gee...thats like double Starfleet's...), and there's 20 hexes or so in a Heavy Naval Gauss Rifle's range... Each turn is 10 seconds...352km/10sec...35.2km/second. Each shell is half a ton, including loading equiptment...assume half the mass of that is actual projectile, and you get some impressive KE going...309GJ, or thereabouts...
Thats ho hum...but thats assuming it takes 10 seconds to reach the target. It probably takes less. That drives the KE up FAST...if it takes 5 seconds, multiply the energy by 4...if it takes 1, multiply the energy by 100....
Even as it stands, 10 hits or so, and those Feds will have something to think about...

Scaleing from a Gauss Rifle (Fighter Scale), you get the same minimum speed, about a quarter of the mass (125 kg, or 1/8 a ton, assume half is loading equiptment...)...51.6GJ for one point capitol scale damage...30 per HNGR...1.5TJ....average broadside from a battleship: 100+ capitol scale points of damage, 5TJ...or about Mike Wong's generous estimate of a Jem'Hadar ramming attack's KE.

Not exactly clear on force fairness...: Clan Battle Fleet might include full blown (Star Destroyer sized) battleships, and depending on the clan, possibly many more ships than the feddie force (Snow raven has 40, certain ones I think have as few as 4 or 5...one I think has none...) {yes, this is an arguement AGAINST my side...}. Please say what kind of force....We talking Galaxies and McKennas duking it out? Or some Lola III and Constitution or Defiants meeting?

I will agree the WarShips would be rather sluggish, being limited to only 1 or 2 Gs, with even fighters not getting much more than 4 or 5...

On the other hand, some warships mount enough armour to take 3 or 4 broadsides...and phasers aren't particularly strong against armor...

Yogi, the Lasers Vs. sheilds arguement has no water here (or anywhere else...) First, See the main SD.Net page for why it doesn't hold up in general. Second, the lasers are small, secondary weapons (even the capitol grade ones...) meaning that even if you were right about lasers and sheilds, it wouldn't matter...Guess what sheilds are weak to? physical weapons and charged particles...exactly a WarShips main armorment. Further, just what the hell do you think Star Fleet ranges ARE? You always see combat at knife fight ranges, withing easy visual range. That happens to be a range which can be held in ONE Battlespace hex....in other words, even battletech fighter guns outrange you...

Coyote, that assumes StarFleet is in a position for orbital bombardment, because the mechs are 1) not too close to their own troops to kill, as without vehicles, fed troops are too slow to run... and 2) the ships aren't otherwise engaged trying to pound the Warships (win or lose...) What's used to bombard probably would determine what the result would be...for some reason, BT stuff is unusually vulnerable to nukes....

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-01-04 03:40am

Well, the Feddies have photon torpedoes, which can certainly whack out even the heaviest warship. They can also resort to the old transporter trick here, except they'll be very stupid if they decide to transport personnel instead of explosives.

They'll piss in their pants when they see an elemental battle suit, or the Salamander. Crispy red shirted ensigns, anyone?

Likewise, BT warships can also destroy the Feddies with their kinetic weapons.

Still, ST has the better movement rates, and they can go from impulse to low warp(FTL) to avoid BT weapon attacks. I think it's not a matter of weapons being able to hurt the other side, but whether they can hit at all, and I think the Feddies have the edge here.

Of course, the Feddies lose on the ground. No question about that.

The Nice Guy

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-04 04:54am

Range? Voyager smacks a warhead currently tracking it with a torpedo at over 5 million kilometers.

Evil Sadistic Bastard · Post by **Evil Sadistic Bastard** » 2003-01-04 10:05am

Argh once again the BattleTechers pull all manner of numbers out to justify their position...

...Which is pretty strong, just that Trek would ownz Btech in space.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-04 09:55pm

I pull all manner of numbers, but no more than warsies do to beat Trekkies...

Yogi, if that's so, why, exactly, does every other instance of combat in Star Trek occur at visual range? (as in range where you can see many details of the opposing ship, less than 10km) When, exactly did this even you claim occour? I can back up my numbers for BT range. Can you back up yours for Star Trek?

Nice guy, I'm not sure "the transporter trick" would work....a suprising amout of stuff blocks transporters (including both 20th-century tech level aliens, and lightning: BT is a bit above 20th century tech (in most areas at least...), and PPC's are described as artificial lightning...) Photon torps would most likely nail a WarShip, unless it's various point defense batteries could shoot it down. They don't appear to have really great acceleration ability. BT weapon attacks wouldn't move significantly slower than other ST races attacks, yet we never see ships go FTL to dodge in Star Trek: I'm not sure that would work. After all, if the Star trek ship is in firing range, it will have at most a second (assuming it fires at 30km) to dodge even a Gauss. PPC's travel near light, and the lighter Naval Lasers obviously go light speed.

Do not underestimate the power of Kerensky, ESB...

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2003-01-04 10:13pm

Alright, thanks for the info. Heading off to write the FanFic now. By the way I always use Snow Raven as clan of my choice.

P.S. To my knowledge the feddies DO have an army, but it is very small, and is only on Earth, and is in the early times of the Klingon wars. And it will make an appearence in the Fan Fic.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-04 10:20pm

When does there army even show up? I mean, I guess they could have some kind of bodyguard or something for the head of the federation, but it can't be very big or powerful...otherwise we'd see it off earth, hear something about it, have it used for defending other major planets, or otherwise get a clue of it's existence...

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-04 10:22pm

Err...and can you let me know when you finish it? I'd like to read it...(even if BT does get it's ass kicked...unless the 1600 ship number I recall for Starfleet includes both capitol ships and runabouts/fighters (it might...), even Snow Raven is screwed...even if it does only represent a very small number of actual capitol ships, it'd be iffy...

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-04 10:42pm

Vejut wrote:Yogi, if that's so, why, exactly, does every other instance of combat in Star Trek occur at visual range? (as in range where you can see many details of the opposing ship, less than 10km) When, exactly did this even you claim occour? I can back up my numbers for BT range. Can you back up yours for Star Trek?

Voyager: Human Error

*Paraphrased script*
Helm Boy: Warhead 8 million km away!
Janeway: Tuvok, fire torpedoes at it.
Torpedoes: Boom
Wahread: Shield! Neener neener neener.
Helm Boy: Warhead now 5 million km away!

As for combat, the stated range of the weapons is always greater than what we see on the screen. I beleive the concensus on this forum is because of ECM, manuverability, and other forms of electronic inteference. Battletech ships turn like a slug, and I really don't recall it having sophisticated sensors (and by extention, sensor countermeasures) such as the Federation has. In Voyager: Future's End, the Federation shields can scatter Radar easily.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-04 10:49pm

how, exactly, does the fact that the characters are CONSISTENTLY wrong about the range help your point in any way? ECM and manouverability won't do shit to your ability to tell the range: at least, it shouldn't screw it up to the point where the target is in clear visual range, and you're saying it's a million km away.... That says more about ST officer intellegence than ECM to me...

BT ships turn slow (comparitively), but they have point defence batteries, fairly competent engineering, and plenty of armor....

As for scattering radar, how about infra red? BT ships pick up on that pretty well too... also...what, exactly was somebody doing painting VOY with radar if everyone has "advanced sensors"?

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2003-01-05 12:21am

how, exactly, does the fact that the characters are CONSISTENTLY wrong about the range help your point in any way?

Provide an example of Voyager's crew being incorrect about range. Furthermore, transporters have a range of 40,000 km, which is far beyond BTech range, and is also lower than ST weapons range.

BT ships turn slow (comparitively), but they have point defence batteries, fairly competent engineering, and plenty of armor....

Do you have any numbers?

As for scattering radar, how about infra red? BT ships pick up on that pretty well too... also...what, exactly was somebody doing painting VOY with radar if everyone has "advanced sensors"?

That isn't relevant if there aren't any examples of long range.

Trying to prove BTech is better in space is just a waste of time.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-01-05 12:30am

And Transporters have trouble beaming stuff through heavy metals also they will have one other problem.Deck placement a Warship has I think 30 plus decks and will have marines patroling the ship dring combat.Also the deck placement is a problem for the feddies possibly because the decks are placed to let the ships ((BT SHIP) engine provide gravity for them through thrust

Shadow · Post by **Shadow** » 2003-01-05 12:36am

And Transporters have trouble beaming stuff through heavy metals also they will have one other problem.

It easier to beam something in than out. In fact, thery can just beam a bomb, or antimatter next to the ship, if necessary.

Deck placement a Warship has I think 30 plus decks and will have marines patroling the ship dring combat.Also the deck placement is a problem for the feddies possibly because the decks are placed to let the ships ((BT SHIP) engine provide gravity for them through thrust

I don't see why this would stop a bomb or antimatter.

Vejut · Post by **Vejut** » 2003-01-05 09:50am

For voy, I haven't watched ST for a long time, and even if I had, I couldn't give you eps. Checking the Cannon Database, no examples are given, however, the Galaxy (previous top end ship), has a range of ~40km on weapons (according to visuals, not crew statements. According to the crew they have a range of many thousand km. This is not the case because in just about every case of combat, both combatants are clearly visible to one another.), and transporters have a much smaller range than the "40000 km" you state. Again, I question if they can do (or would think to do, even if they could) what you are suggesting, as it has never been done--I would think a large range advantage, even if the bombs weren't very powerful, would be a useful thing, especially in combat. If you had that much more range with a transporter, why do you launch photon torpedos, rather than just transporting them over?

numbers on point defense: Short range weapon: Means range is 6 hexes, approximately 100km. generally does 2 damage, standard scale (standard size GR does 15, Capitol scale HGR does a whoping 300), so depending on how strong the gausses are, it has from 2GJ (assuming a HNGR has 308GJ) to 10GJ (assuming 1.5TJ) energy. Most ships have either point defense (AMS, MGs, and flamers, and small lasers for IS ships), or fighter grade weapons which they use to shoot down incoming fighters and missles.

For examples of long range IR detection: in "The Hunters" (can't remember page, in a hurry, or I'd find it and quote it), Morgan Hasek-Davion is on the bridge of an IS Cameron battlecruiser, and watches the IR signature blooms of ships jumping out in the holotank.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-01-05 12:01pm

Effective ranges stated by the crew and combat ranges seen on screen tell two diffrent things. Various explinations for this are as follows

1) The Crew, Technical Manuals etc. are wrong.
2) The Visiuals are wrong
3) The Crew refer to the the maximum targetting capabilities of the weapons while the Visuals detail what actually happens in combat because of sensor scattering via shields, manuverability of both sides, and other electronic jamming going on.

As of now, Option 3 is the one I'm using since it supports both the visuals and crew statements.

Now BTech cruisers, unless I'm mistaken, can be picked up on Radar. Plus, they're not very manuverable by your admission. Therefore, what would normally prevent a Federation starship from targetting it would not be the case now.

As for Radar, Voyager got dummped in the Way Back Machine and wound up in 199x in Earth orbit. That's how they encountered Radar.