Would the Scimitar be of Interest to the Empire?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-03 03:21pm

Ghost Rider wrote:For me it serves only a more extraneous purpose...we don't know it'll penetrate any of the SW planetray shields...and unshielded planet will be cowed by the site of the ISD...no need to go we'll elimanate the populace just so we can now have a weapon that'll be sorta maybe useful in some cases.

An unsheiled planet is usually cowed by the sight of an ISD. It would be even more cowed by an upgraded ISD that can turn them all to stone in seven minutes (as opposed to the hours needed to BDZ a planet, not to mention the sweep teams that kill survivors. Also in seven minutes you would decrease the number of possible escapees.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-03 03:22pm

I suppose...I just see it just plain extraneous.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-03 03:24pm

Another use would be on the Yhuzzun vong. The Imperials could retake Coruscant in seven Minutes, and Annihalate Vong fleets in a single shot.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-03 03:25pm

True...for that well it would nice...get rid that eyesore in seven minutes.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-03 03:25pm

NecronLord wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:For me it serves only a more extraneous purpose...we don't know it'll penetrate any of the SW planetray shields...and unshielded planet will be cowed by the site of the ISD...no need to go we'll elimanate the populace just so we can now have a weapon that'll be sorta maybe useful in some cases.
An unsheiled planet is usually cowed by the sight of an ISD. It would be even more cowed by an upgraded ISD that can turn them all to stone in seven minutes (as opposed to the hours needed to BDZ a planet, not to mention the sweep teams that kill survivors. Also in seven minutes you would decrease the number of possible escapees.

Sorry but BDZ operations don't require hours. They require less than one hour, probably much less, most likely even less than 20 minutes since you don't want to give your victims much time to escape with their ships.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-03 03:28pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:For me it serves only a more extraneous purpose...we don't know it'll penetrate any of the SW planetray shields...and unshielded planet will be cowed by the site of the ISD...no need to go we'll elimanate the populace just so we can now have a weapon that'll be sorta maybe useful in some cases.
An unsheiled planet is usually cowed by the sight of an ISD. It would be even more cowed by an upgraded ISD that can turn them all to stone in seven minutes (as opposed to the hours needed to BDZ a planet, not to mention the sweep teams that kill survivors. Also in seven minutes you would decrease the number of possible escapees.
Sorry but BDZ operations don't require hours. They require less than one hour, probably much less, most likely even less than 20 minutes since you don't want to give your victims much time to escape with their ships.

Evidence, using one ISD BDZ<1 hour.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-03 03:35pm

It's somewhere here on SD.net. I search.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-03 03:41pm

Ok the timeframe is less than a day but it's not known how much less. Though considering an ISD has multi-gigation light and heavy weapons and heavy guns which are most likely in the teraton-range 1 hour doesn't seem so far off. If it took considerably longer the risk of ships escaping would simply be too big.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-03 03:43pm

I believe most of the reason that the BDZ takes around such a short period is the constant showing that SW ships can achieve ground to space in a very short span of time and since the BDZ operation is meant to prevent any such leaving, it would need to truly be quick.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2003-01-03 03:46pm

Ghost Rider wrote:I believe most of the reason that the BDZ takes around such a short period is the constant showing that SW ships can achieve ground to space in a very short span of time and since the BDZ operation is meant to prevent any such leaving, it would need to truly be quick.

If you look at the time the falcon needed from take off to leaving the atmosphere, that's a matter of minutes. If that took several hours, space would be filled with private craft trying to escape.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-01-03 03:46pm

Studying the Warp Drive of the Scimiter is silly since any Star Trek ship contains one. That aside, the cloak might be of interest as well as its Uber-weapon. Any other system being found on any Star Trek ship would not factor into the study value of the Scimiter.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-03 03:47pm

Well according to some calcs I saw with ICS figures a BDZ takes 15 minutes for an ISD to complete, I'm not sure if this was with scaling up or not (it seems a bit excessive since we have seen some descriptions of BDZ that point to it being a fleet op and other such things but since I don't want to get into an ICS debate I will leave it there).

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-03 03:48pm

Ghost Rider wrote:So for one particular situation you install a completely worthless for just that hope of it?

And?

That is my point, why have something extra for one maybe case because well it might happen and god forbid they don't have interdictors blocking you and just an ISD with it's guns primed.

Your level of inteligence boggles me. I had no idea that someone with such a low IQ could use a computer.

You just contradicted your own statement.

For something to be worthless, it would have to be of absolutely no possible or logical use. We have already shown how Warp Drive does not fit this. Then you say because it only works for a particular situation, it shouldn't be considered. Hello, this particular situation happens semi-frequently in SW. The ability to bypass Interdictors and operate VERY close to gravity wells at FTL speeds is an EXTREMELY important tactical tool for SW.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-03 03:48pm

Cpt_Frank wrote:If you look at the time the falcon needed from take off to leaving the atmosphere, that's a matter of minutes. If that took several hours, space would be filled with private craft trying to escape.

Exactly...thus pretty much nullfiying any real threat if an ISD captain says he going to commence a BDZ operation.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-03 03:49pm

Isolder74 wrote:Studying the Warp Drive of the Scimiter is silly since any Star Trek ship contains one.

Except the Empire wouldn't have just any Star Trek ship. This is what if the Empire got a hold of the Scimitar. Not what if the Empire got a hold of the Scimitar AND already had other Trek ships.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-03 03:50pm

TheDarkling wrote:Well according to some calcs I saw with ICS figures a BDZ takes 15 minutes for an ISD to complete, I'm not sure if this was with scaling up or not (it seems a bit excessive since we have seen some descriptions of BDZ that point to it being a fleet op and other such things but since I don't want to get into an ICS debate I will leave it there).

I doubt it, In any case it still compares unfavorably with the Medusa gun.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-03 03:56pm

By the way dumbfuck...perhaps I should've done this earlier but what the hell you're so insistent upon Interdiction that I decided to give another look see.

Interdiction:

Warp drives can be disrupted by strong gravity fields. The gravity well of the Dyson sphere in Relics forced the Enterprise-D out of warp, even though its surface gravity level was no higher than Earth-normal gravity. This was seen when Starfleet officers boarded the derelict, unpowered USS Jenolan, where they were able to move about unimpeded even before they re-powered the ship's systems. This indicates that the intensity of the gravity well is not as important as its sheer size- a passing starship would be influenced by such a large gravity well for an unusually long duration, even though the gravity well is no more intense than a typical planetary gravity well.

Further evidence of warp drive vulnerability to gravity wells is seen in Once More Unto the Breach when Worf used an inverse graviton beam (an anti-gravity beam) to keep Jem'Hadar warships from going to warp. The technique was successful, so this indicates that Jem'Hadar warp drives can be prevented from functioning through the use of anti-gravity beams. It is reasonable to conclude that Romulan, Klingon, and Federation warp drives would be similarly affected, since all of the aforementioned warp drives appear to function on the same basic principles.

The enormous gravity-well projectors can be reversed to project anti-gravity beams in a manner similar to a standard Imperial repulsorlift drive, but on a larger scale (and a much larger scale than Worf's puny anti-graviton beam). In fact, this was actually done in Solo Command, when an interdictor reversed its gravity-well projectors to put a Victory-class Star Destroyer away. This means that Imperial interdictor cruisers can potentially be just as effective on warp-driven starships as they are on hyperdrive-equipped starships, regardless of whether reverse-polarity is actually required.

So why would they use a fucking Warp Drive?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2003-01-03 03:56pm

Alyeska wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:Studying the Warp Drive of the Scimiter is silly since any Star Trek ship contains one.
Except the Empire wouldn't have just any Star Trek ship. This is what if the Empire got a hold of the Scimitar. Not what if the Empire got a hold of the Scimitar AND already had other Trek ships.

If they could get their hands on the Scimiter it is not a large leap in logic to asume they could capture any other Star Trek ship. The strategic value of the Scimiter is its special equiptment. Those parts are the only concern to be totaly intact for study.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-03 03:57pm

OK, several points:

1) 7 minutes as a sitting duck over the target zone is not the same as one month for a bioweapon to take effect. It is the time of vulnerability for your ship which matters, not the timeframe for destruction (see 5-year bioweapon deployed against Earth in B5; is it useless because everyone takes a long time to die?)

2) Alyeska, you can speculate all you like about how you think they SHOULD have found a way to ignore the laws of thermodynamics and run a ship with zero emissions of any kind, but if you think this idle speculation represents a valid argument that they can actually do this, you're deluding yourself. This is like saying that cruise missiles in Iraq were spotted by eye, so it stands to reason that new cruise missiles should have closed that vulnerability and become invisible. It is the worst sort of leap in logic to claim that they must have been able to "solve" thermodynamics simply because they have a motive to do so.

3) If a graviton burst can knock a Jem'Hadar fleet out of warp (which happened on DS9), then an interdictor field can knock a warp-driven ship out of warp. Deal with it.

4) Incorporating warp drive onto an ISD is a ridiculous idea, obviously borne of a monstrous deficit of engineering knowledge. Back-fitting a new propulsion system onto an existing platform is hideously impractical and not worth it unless there is some huge advantage to be gained. Incompatibilities with the power system, the need to add huge nacelles to an ISD which clutter up its fields of fire, and other problems make this idea a total non-starter. Add to that the fact that there is no advantage whatsoever to be gained, and what do you have? Nothing.

Is a Scimitar useful to the Empire? As a curiosity, yes. As a research project, possibly. As a military vessel or a source of "upgrades" for their warships, no. The only useful thing might be the cloak, where the ability to see out may outweigh the increased detectability as compared to SW cloaks.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-03 04:00pm

One slight problem with your arguments. They are entirely incorrect. Each of these issues have been delt with multiple times and it was stated that while gravity affects Warp Drive, it does not out right prohibit it. That is why ships can go into warp speed or sustain warp speed while less then 100,000km from a star.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-03 04:01pm

Ghost Rider: i have been over this before (and im pretty sure it was with you).

PICARD
(to Rager)
Bring us out of warp, Ensign.
All stop.

RAGER
(works)
Aye, sir.

The ship is suddenly ROCKED and the alert status goes
to YELLOW. Picard, Riker, & Data move toward their
stations.

PICARD
Report.

WORF
We have entered a massive
gravitational field.

They all react with surprise.

Now please stop referencing Relics as for the Anti-Gravity thing that will only work if they figure it out and it will also not negate the other advantages of the warp drive.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-03 04:06pm

Darth Wong wrote:OK, several points:

1) 7 minutes as a sitting duck over the target zone is not the same as one month for a bioweapon to take effect. It is the time of vulnerability for your ship which matters, not the timeframe for destruction (see 5-year bioweapon deployed against Earth in B5; is it useless because everyone takes a long time to die?)

Who says they are going to sit there while they charge up the weapon? Why not charge it up BEFORE arriving? This again fails to take into account that the Medusa weapon has far more applications then just the planet busting.

2) Alyeska, you can speculate all you like about how you think they SHOULD have found a way to ignore the laws of thermodynamics and run a ship with zero emissions of any kind, but if you think this idle speculation represents a valid argument that they can actually do this, you're deluding yourself. This is like saying that cruise missiles in Iraq were spotted by eye, so it stands to reason that new cruise missiles should have closed that vulnerability and become invisible. It is the worst sort of leap in logic to claim that they must have been able to "solve" thermodynamics simply because they have a motive to do so.

Its not a case of breaking or ignoring the law of thermodynamics. Its call masking your signature. They CAN do that. Fine, a ship must have drive emissions. Ever hear of containing those emissions so they don't leave the shield? Such things can be done. They can also create fields that hide the drive emissions, not totally prevent them.

3) If a graviton burst can knock a Jem'Hadar fleet out of warp (which happened on DS9), then an interdictor field can knock a warp-driven ship out of warp. Deal with it.

Yet at the same time Fed ships and Klingon ships can operate warp drives near the surface of a star. This is meaningless. This does not prove that an interdictor can stop warp drives.

4) Incorporating warp drive onto an ISD is a ridiculous idea, obviously borne of a monstrous deficit of engineering knowledge. Back-fitting a new propulsion system onto an existing platform is hideously impractical and not worth it unless there is some huge advantage to be gained. Incompatibilities with the power system, the need to add huge nacelles to an ISD which clutter up its fields of fire, and other problems make this idea a total non-starter. Add to that the fact that there is no advantage whatsoever to be gained, and what do you have? Nothing.

Not worth it unless there is a gain? Indeed there is! Never worry about Intredictors again and operate at higher speeds while closer to gravity wells.

Is a Scimitar useful to the Empire? As a curiosity, yes. As a research project, possibly. As a military vessel or a source of "upgrades" for their warships, no. The only useful thing might be the cloak, where the ability to see out may outweigh the increased detectability as compared to SW cloaks.

Its not going to revolutionize things, but they can incorperate the designs and research them for better aplications.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-03 04:11pm

Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:OK, several points:

1) 7 minutes as a sitting duck over the target zone is not the same as one month for a bioweapon to take effect. It is the time of vulnerability for your ship which matters, not the timeframe for destruction (see 5-year bioweapon deployed against Earth in B5; is it useless because everyone takes a long time to die?)
Who says they are going to sit there while they charge up the weapon? Why not charge it up BEFORE arriving? This again fails to take into account that the Medusa weapon has far more applications then just the planet busting.

Quite, clearing endor and sterilising equipment are just two.

Excellent, Someone else has taken on my nickname for it..

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-03 04:14pm

NecronLord wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:OK, several points:

1) 7 minutes as a sitting duck over the target zone is not the same as one month for a bioweapon to take effect. It is the time of vulnerability for your ship which matters, not the timeframe for destruction (see 5-year bioweapon deployed against Earth in B5; is it useless because everyone takes a long time to die?)
Who says they are going to sit there while they charge up the weapon? Why not charge it up BEFORE arriving? This again fails to take into account that the Medusa weapon has far more applications then just the planet busting.
Quite, clearing endor and sterilising equipment are just two.

Excellent, Someone else has taken on my nickname for it..

Well it seems the most apt description and is relatively easy to understand what is being referred to.

Excelsior · Post by **Excelsior** » 2003-01-03 04:33pm

Would the scimitar interest the Empire? Erm... YEAH!

Lets see. The Scimitar has dozens of torpedoes and disruptors, can fire while its cloaked and it has a weapon that can kill everything on an entire planet. The thin'gs better than the death star, if you ask me. After all, the death star got blown up by some crappy lttle starfighters. the scimitar never would have lost, like that.