God as the Evil Creator

[Alferd Packer]

The Riddle of Epicurus is well-known. One of the ideas it posits is that God is able to prevent evil, but unwilling to do so, and is therefore malevolent. Does any religion subscribe to this notion? In other words, is there a religion whose beliefs explicitly state that there exists a powerful God who, despite being the creator of the universe and all that jazz, is a heartless, evil asshole?

Sure, the OT states quite clearly all of the atrocities that God committed, but one of the major assumptions (silly as it is) is that God is nonetheless good. The difference I'm looking for is the assumption that God is flat-out evil, and should be worshipped solely out of fear and hated for His malevolence. Also, do any gods from polytheistic religions qualify as this?

[Melchior]

Yes, several gnostic sect had belief in a malevolent "creator" who trapped humanity in a material "prison reality", some even said that the Bible was one of his propaganda pieces, and that the snake was the real hero in the whole story.

[Majin Gojira]

I've been toying with the gnostic idea of the evil creator (Yaldabaoth(SP?)) in various fictional form, largely leading to a cthonic entity having it's followers become one with it by entering its stomach.

[Darth Wong]

In the ancient Greek mythology, Zeus was portrayed as the king of the gods, but he was portrayed as a capricious, prideful, and not-at-all praiseworthy king. He was also capable of admitting error on occasion; he eventually admitted that it was wrong to punish Prometheus for giving fire to Man and released him.

The Biblical God follows in the same mould: a vindictive, cruel tyrant who is nevertheless worshiped as king, in much the same way that real-life kings often behaved despicably yet retained the worship and loyalty of their followers. I think that, to be honest, the whole idea of God's "perfect morality" was retconned into the Judeo-Christian mythos later. The early Old Testament books portray him in much the same way as Zeus was portrayed in the Greek mythology. They generally don't talk about whether he is moral or not; that simply doesn't enter into it. He is their god, and he is mighty, and they should fear his wrath and his cruelty but also be thankful that he crushes their enemies. That's all they have to say about that. It's not until later that they start spinning bullshit about how he somehow represents "love".

[Singular Intellect]

Maybe the biblical god takes that phrase "hurt the ones you love" to the extreme.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Yes, several gnostic sect had belief in a malevolent "creator" who trapped humanity in a material "prison reality", some even said that the Bible was one of his propaganda pieces, and that the snake was the real hero in the whole story.

Fucking pernicious idea, possibly the one I hate most in all religion and mysticism. It's emphasis on "gnosis" as a kind of non-intellectual enlightenment and more important than intellectual pursuits is possibly one of the root causes of religious anti-intellectualism.

[NecronLord]

Also, do any gods from polytheistic religions qualify as this?

Offhand; Set and Sobek, egyptian gods, were at different stages seen as evil - the former 'became' an evil brother murdering monster when the cult of Horus was ascendent, and Sobek became ambiguous semi-good over time as his worship grew, where he changed from being an outright evil crocodile monster to a crocodile monster often on the side of humans and eventually an servant\aspect of Amun.

[NecronLord]

It's emphasis on "gnosis" as a kind of non-intellectual enlightenment and more important than intellectual pursuits is possibly one of the root causes of religious anti-intellectualism.

If only that were it.

I think religions being fundamentally irrational constructs might have something to do with it too, myself.

[TithonusSyndrome]

Well yuh, but c'man, there's no fun pointing out the obvious like that. I guess it'd be more accurate to say that this is the primary source of anti-intellectualism among those with serious academic theological interests. Since they're not as easy to dismiss with cue-card arguments like the kind we discuss here ad nauseum, I consider them more important to focus on developing counterarguments against.

[K. A. Pital]

Zeus was actually cool. A powerful asshole with lightning for the mix

Though, most of greek gods were assholes, and in many ways.

But one needs to remember that Greek Gods don't qualify as they're not claimed to be omnipotent, and neither are they creators of the universe (Cosmos came from Chaos by itself it seems).

[General Zod]

Zeus was actually cool. A powerful asshole with lightning for the mix

Though, most of greek gods were assholes, and in many ways.

But one needs to remember that Greek Gods don't qualify as they're not claimed to be omnipotent, and neither are they creators of the universe (Cosmos came from Chaos by itself it seems).

Didn't the Greek Gods basically usurp authority from the Titans anyways? Or am I mixing up my pantheons again?

[Melchior]

I think that, to be honest, the whole idea of God's "perfect morality" was retconned into the Judeo-Christian mythos later.

God's literal omnipotence was retconned, originally it simply meaned that he had power in every aspect of reality, not only, for example, thunder or harvests. It explains a lot about iron chariots, swearing to avoid flooding Earth another time, etc...

[Majin Gojira]

Didn't the Greek Gods basically usurp authority from the Titans anyways? Or am I mixing up my pantheons again?

Yup and the Titan's usurped their parents, and it's fortold that Heracles will lead the revolt on the next wave dieties.

Or something.

[Haruko]

Zeus was actually cool. A powerful asshole with lightning for the mix

Though, most of greek gods were assholes, and in many ways.

But one needs to remember that Greek Gods don't qualify as they're not claimed to be omnipotent, and neither are they creators of the universe (Cosmos came from Chaos by itself it seems).

Didn't the Greek Gods basically usurp authority from the Titans anyways? Or am I mixing up my pantheons again?

The Olympians, the pantheon of Greek gods more of us are familiar with, overthrew the Titans.

[Haruko]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians

[Coop D'etat]

Didn't the Greek Gods basically usurp authority from the Titans anyways? Or am I mixing up my pantheons again?

Yup and the Titan's usurped their parents, and it's fortold that Heracles will lead the revolt on the next wave dieties.

Or something.

In Greek Mythology it all starts in Chaos (not meaning disorder but emptyness) which produces Gaia. Gaia has some children on her own, most important being Uranus who then becomes the first king.

Uranus bangs his mom for a while producing the Hundred-Handed Ones and the Cyclopses who are pretty fugly so Uranus is decides to push them back into Gaia. Then Uranus and Gaia make the Titans. By now Gaia is tired of all the sex and sick of Uranus' shit so she makes an adamantium sickle to use on him. She tries to get her kids to take on daddy but only the youngest, Cronos, has the balls. Cronos then cuts his dad's cock off with the sickle and Uranus goes down.

By virtue of having those enormous balls and the shiny dick-chopper Cronos becomes the leader with the rest of the Titans. Gaia is a bit miffed because he was supposed to get the Cyclopses and Hundred-Handed Ones out of her but was like "Yeah... no." Cronos is just as horny as his pa, but instead of fucking his mom he gets it on with his sister Rhea, but then eats the children once their born, either so he wouldn't have challengers or so he won't have to pay child support. By the sixth time this happens Rhea notices the pattern and with Gaia hids the last kid Zeus.

Zeus grows up into a strapping young man and manages to trick Cronos into throwing up his sibblings who are apparently fully formed dispite growing up in a stomach. At this point the shit is going down and open war breaks out. On the Titan's side is Prometheus, who is a pretty clever fellow, and he says "hey, remember those big guys stuck in Gaia? I bet they'd be good in a scrap. Let's let'em out so they'll like us." But Cronos is like "No, bitch." So Prometheus realizes that Cronos is a dipshit and defects to the other side and repeats his idea. Zeus goes "hey, that'll work." So they free the Cyclopses and Hundred Handed Ones. The Cyclopses give Zeus a big tech advantage by making thunderbolts and other toys while the Hundred Handed Ones are a big help with their rapid-fire mountain throwing skills. They hand the Titan's asses back to them and now Zeus is in charge.

Gaia continues the patern by eventually getting pissed at Zeus and producing Typhoon, who seems to be some kind of dragon with one hundred heads. Typhoon is actually even stronger than Zeus and kicks his ass at first. But Zeus's tech advantage wins through when he takes Typhoon down with a couple hundred thunderbolts.

As for latter revolt, there are two instances were that could have happened but Zeus found ways out of them. The first was after he has sex with Metis who could have borne a son that could overthrow him. Zeus got out of it by eating Metis (literally, not cullingus, although I suppose he could have done that earlier) and which eventually lead to Metis' daughter Athena poping out of Zeus's head. The other case was with Achilles' ma, Thetis, whose son would be greater than the father. Zeus neutrallized this threat by forcing her to marry a mortal.

In conclusion, Zeus isn't in charge because he's necessary all-powerful or even the most powerfully but because he's strong and has a good powerbase in his uncles, the Cyclopses and Hundred-Handed Ones, who think he's a swell guy because he got them out of their mom's bowels. Also he seems to be somewhat less dickish than his predecessors and has the foresight to prevent these insurrections ahead of time rather than leaving them to bit him in the ass later.

[Admiral Valdemar]

In other words, the Greek pantheon and mythos attached therein is pretty much a celestial version of The West Wing, but with more mountain throwing and thunderbolt smiting action. I always did love my classics lessons, even if taught by a real life Medusa.

[Coop D'etat]

The West Wing? I think more like the goings on in a trailer park.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The West Wing? I think more like the goings on in a trailer park.

Really, isn't that basically what the White House IS right now?

[skotos]

he eventually admitted that it was wrong to punish Prometheus for giving fire to Man and released him.

He did? The way I remember the tale Heracles freed Prometheus as part of his labors, Zeus had nothing to do with it, other than fathering Heracles in the first place.

Of course, I may be remembering it wrong, and there are multiple versions of the Greek myths anyway.

[Coop D'etat]

he eventually admitted that it was wrong to punish Prometheus for giving fire to Man and released him.

He did? The way I remember the tale Heracles freed Prometheus as part of his labors, Zeus had nothing to do with it, other than fathering Heracles in the first place.

Of course, I may be remembering it wrong, and there are multiple versions of the Greek myths anyway.

If Zeus wasn't ok with Prometheus being free his ass would be back on the wall in about a half-hour.

[skotos]

If Zeus wasn't ok with Prometheus being free his ass would be back on the wall in about a half-hour.

Do you care to provide some proof for that statement? Zeus was neither omniscient nor omnipotent after all.

[Darth Wong]

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanPrometheus.html

You might want to check it out. It contains a lot of translations of classical writings about Prometheus. While Heracles was said to free Prometheus in most accounts (keeping in mind that there is no single "sacred text" for Greek mythology the way there is for Judeo-Christian mythology), many accounts mention Heracles asking Zeus for permission, or Zeus otherwise relenting in some way.

In any case, the original point (that Zeus was not portrayed as an icon or symbol of morality) is unchanged. The idea that one's god or gods must somehow represent an ideal of morality is a Christian prejudice.

[skotos]

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out later, due to the stock market being in chaos I have a "first year resident"-like schedule.

In any case, the original point (that Zeus was not portrayed as an icon or symbol of morality) is unchanged. The idea that one's god or gods must somehow represent an ideal of morality is a Christian prejudice.

I mostly agree. My response was motivated entirely by the fact that I had not heard that version of the myth of Prometheus freeing.

My only disagreement is that the notion that "one's god or gods must somehow represent an ideal of morality" is not only a Christian prejudice, it is a Muslim prejudice as well.

[Darth Wong]

My only disagreement is that the notion that "one's god or gods must somehow represent an ideal of morality" is not only a Christian prejudice, it is a Muslim prejudice as well.

That's like saying that a Corvette isn't a GM product, it's a Chevrolet. Islam and Christianity have the same roots.