Need help with Darkstar's follower!

[LeftWingExtremist]

If we wish to test the theory that Ewok arrows can penetrate scout trooper armour plate, why are we looking at blurry images of one ambiguous incident rather than asking if we can find examples of Ewok arrows bouncing off the armour?

I would also love to play a game of "wear modern flack/kevlar armour while I shoot arrows at you". There is a reason why some special forces sometimes use crossbows.

[Lord Relvenous]

If we wish to test the theory that Ewok arrows can penetrate scout trooper armour plate, why are we looking at blurry images of one ambiguous incident rather than asking if we can find examples of Ewok arrows bouncing off the armour?

I would also love to play a game of "wear modern flack/kevlar armour while I shoot arrows at you". There is a reason why some special forces sometimes use crossbows.

Wait your post there seems a bit confusing. I surmise you mean that modern flak and kevlar is ineffective against arrows. Could you clarify?

On the subject of Stormtrooper armor deflecting kentic impacts, there is always that quote, which i don't have close at hand sadly, of the man in stormtrooper armor getting hit by a speaqr thrown by a droid. The spear merely chips the top layer of the armor. If that spear didn't penetrate when thrown by a droid, an arrow powered by a bow is not going to peirce the armor.

[Darth Servo]

And why would they be so assured that they could do all this miricle crap "before the battle even starts"? What gives them the right to even be able to claim the high ground of surprise?

Tricorders and the same idiocy that leads them to think an ISD will just sit there doing nothing while they try all the Fed's fancy technobabble tricks on it.

[Kruk]

Arrows seem to be good against stormtroopers only in the movies. In the book it's clearly stated, that the arrow (think from a crossbow, but I'm not sure) wont penetrate the armour - the second book of the Thrawn trilogy, when the natives from Wayland shot at Thrawn and the arrow is deflected by the armour he has under his uniform.

And why would they be so assured that they could do all this miricle crap "before the battle even starts"? What gives them the right to even be able to claim the high ground of surprise?

Episode I I think. You must be a talking frog to loose a battle where your enemy is deployed like the droids in that battle.

And Episode VI when stormtroopers are running around like castrated bull I think. Not to mention the fact that they have not noticed all the preparation the Evoks made near their base.

[Darth Tanner]

I would also love to play a game of "wear modern flack/kevlar armour while I shoot arrows at you". There is a reason why some special forces sometimes use crossbows.

I know modern Kevlar amour is less resistant to stabbing weapons because of the differences in the type of force being applied but I'm not sure about crossbow bolts and stormie armour is quite different in that its hardened plastic rather than an absorbent material such as kevlar so it would be much better equiped to resist direct kinetic impacts.
Regardless Tattoine Ghost shows stormie armour being impervious to high velocity sand person rifles, with only neck shots being kill shots.

Episode I I think. You must be a talking frog to loose a battle where your enemy is deployed like the droids in that battle.

And Episode VI when stormtroopers are running around like castrated bull I think. Not to mention the fact that they have not noticed all the preparation the Evoks made near their base.

What preparation? They piled up some logs on a hill, pulled a pair of trees up into the canopy and had a battery of catapults, all of which was a considerable distance from the actual bunker and would be pretty easy to disguise in the foliage.

Stormtroopers in ANH were not "running around like castrated bulls" they took control of the Tantive very quickly with minimal casualties and then successfully herded the heroes into their ship without accidentally shotting them, which is probably much more difficult than simply shooting them.

[darthbob88]

If we wish to test the theory that Ewok arrows can penetrate scout trooper armour plate, why are we looking at blurry images of one ambiguous incident rather than asking if we can find examples of Ewok arrows bouncing off the armour?

I would also love to play a game of "wear modern flack/kevlar armour while I shoot arrows at you". There is a reason why some special forces sometimes use crossbows.

Wait your post there seems a bit confusing. I surmise you mean that modern flak and kevlar is ineffective against arrows. Could you clarify?

I am a civilian whose only experience with rifles has been firing them, so I'm not exactly qualified to speak on this, but I think I know why arrows go through kevlar. The way kevlar stops bullets is by absorbing and spreading the energy of the bullet over a larger area; a human being can more easily withstand a blunt slap than a sharp hole. On the other hand, kevlar is still a woven fabric with all the problems associated therewith, and sharp points can still go through the weave and into the wearer. Actually, this is how kevlar gets sewn into the layers used in vests; the small needle goes betwen the threads and allows it to be sewn up.

[Lord Relvenous]

But a flak vest is specifically designed to stop shards of shrapnel, therefore negating his analogy. Also, kevlar jackets have layers sewed into them that are peirce proof. And like mentioned before, stormtrooper armor is a plastic or ceramic material, hardened, not a cloth like kevlar.

[Isolder74]

A Flak vest is made by sewing metal plates into a vest(WWII) its more like a Roman plate mail than a kevlar vest. Its a different animal entirely.

Also only after the initial attack are the Stormtrooper at Endor running about like confused bulls. They move after the Ewoks lin a methodical manner and even set up firing position to protect the door of the bunker keeping Han and co from being able to mess with the door.

Up until A certain Wookie snagged a AT-ST, the Imperials did not even seem to need the men still gaurding the front door from attack.

[Kurgan]

If we wish to test the theory that Ewok arrows can penetrate scout trooper armour plate, why are we looking at blurry images of one ambiguous incident rather than asking if we can find examples of Ewok arrows bouncing off the armour?

I would also love to play a game of "wear modern flack/kevlar armour while I shoot arrows at you". There is a reason why some special forces sometimes use crossbows.

Now I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't a crossbow bolt be moving slower than a bullet, and hence be stopped by a bullet proof vest?

If it's a case of a stabbing attack, they do make "stab proof" vests.

I can understand use of crossbows by special forces for purposes of STEALTH, but I think it's hasty to assume they do so because it's a magical body armor piercing weapon...

[Isolder74]

If we wish to test the theory that Ewok arrows can penetrate scout trooper armour plate, why are we looking at blurry images of one ambiguous incident rather than asking if we can find examples of Ewok arrows bouncing off the armour?

I would also love to play a game of "wear modern flack/kevlar armour while I shoot arrows at you". There is a reason why some special forces sometimes use crossbows.

Now I'm no ballistics expert, but wouldn't a crossbow bolt be moving slower than a bullet, and hence be stopped by a bullet proof vest?

If it's a case of a stabbing attack, they do make "stab proof" vests.

I can understand use of crossbows by special forces for purposes of STEALTH, but I think it's hasty to assume they do so because it's a magical body armor piercing weapon...

Well you see the crossbow bolt is wider, heavier and has a blade like point. All those things make defeating the bullet proof vest easier. A knife proof vest isn't the same as a bullet proof one.

[Kurgan]

But on topic, the Stormtrooper armor, if it's anything like earthly body armor, isn't just a thin layer of kevlar like cloth. It has a hard shell and a "body glove" underneath. Of course it has many parts that aren't covered by the "white" parts (evenmoreso with the scout troopers).

In modern armor if you have layers of kevlar and a metal plate, that won't stop a crossbow bolt? Or are we talking a policeman's "bullet proof vest"?


I'd like to see some evidence that crossbows can penetrate anything "bullet proof," that's all. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.


In the case of the stormtroopers, presumably their armor is at least as strong, if not stronger, than 21st century earth body armor, and yet a weaker attack (primitive stone tipped arrows on regular bows fired by pygmy aliens) are able to penetrate it...?

That implies a 21st century crossbow would definately stab a stormtrooper, unless we're saying they are just sticking on the surface, not actually puncturing through (I'm not up to doing that close frame analysis that others have already done atm).

[DPDarkPrimus]

I'd like to see some evidence that crossbows can penetrate anything "bullet proof," that's all.

It's fairly simple to figure out why a crossbow bolt can penetrate a bullet-proof vest. It's already been explained, but here you go anyway:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_proof_vest

Most vests offer little protection against arrows, ice picks, stabbing knife blows, bullets with their points sharpened or armor-piercing rounds. As the force is concentrated in a relatively small area with bladed weapons and armor-piercing rounds, they can push through the weave of most bullet-resistant fabrics. Specially-designed vests which protect against bladed weapons, and sharp objects are often used in vests for prison guards and other law enforcement officers.

hat implies a 21st century crossbow would definately stab a stormtrooper, unless we're saying they are just sticking on the surface, not actually puncturing through (I'm not up to doing that close frame analysis that others have already done atm).

Stormtrooer armor can take projectile fire just fine (some EU book I forget mentions it), and I'm pretty sure you can even see some arrows bounce off their armor in the film. The arrow fired by the Ewok hit part of the black bodyglove, which probably is much like a modern bullet-proof vest, in that it doesn't protect as well against that sort of thing.

[PeZook]

Uh, crossbows?

You know, special forces have access to things like supressors and subsonic bullets, with all the advantages of firearms. I've never heard of any special forces unit actually using or training with crossbows.

RE body armor: Modern body armor includes ballistic insert plates which will stop armor-piercing bullets, crossbow bolts arrows or knives just fine. Interceptor chest plates will actually deflect 7.62 rounds with no ill effects to the wearer (the bullet will knock him off his feet, ouf course, but won't even injure the trooper)

[Darth Tanner]

The only examples of special ops using crossbows I could find was due to them being absolutely quiet for neutralizing sentries and the like, nothing about them being armour defeating.

[CaptainChewbacca]

I recall in one of the Young Jedi Knights books (yes, I read them) that a suit of stormtrooper armor was able to stop a full-length spear thrown at close range, such that it was sticking just barely into the armor but did no penetrating damage to the wearer.

Durned if I remember which book, though. Maybe Shadow Academy.

[Darth Tanner]

I recall in one of the Young Jedi Knights books (yes, I read them) that a suit of stormtrooper armor was able to stop a full-length spear thrown at close range, such that it was sticking just barely into the armor but did no penetrating damage to the wearer.
Durned if I remember which book, though. Maybe Shadow Academy.

I think that was in a comic wasn't it? I remember someone showing me it as a source online but it was in Russian for some reason so I can't say what it was called or what was going on at the time. It was in a jungle setting with Juggernauts so I don't know if it was the comic book version of Shadow Academy or not.

[LeftWingExtremist]

I was just trying to say that stormie armour is no worse than most armour being worn today (and better than the non existant armour worn by starfleet).

[Master_Baerne]

Some would argue that because the Stormtroopers even need armor, Star Wars ground combat routinely degenerates into bloody melees where the stormtrooper cannot make use of preprepared defenses. Thusly, we can assume that tactics play no role in Star Wars ground combat, and very little in space combat because all the characteristics of one miniscule branch of one battle on one planet apply to the entire galaxy. Argue if you want, but I'll get my friends in the goverment to kil-err, talk sternly to you.

Do I sound familiar?

[Batman]

Some would argue that because the Stormtroopers even need armor,

Unlike Trek, because Starfleet personell (especially TOS Red/TNG Goldshirts) NEVER get shot. Oh wait.

Star Wars ground combat routinely degenerates into bloody melees

You mean like in RotJ, where the Ewoks routinely engaged Stormies...in...hand-to-hand...Umm...

where the stormtrooper cannot make use of preprepared defenses.

Which Trek naturally routinely does. After all packing crates are naturally strategically placed and planned defensive installations and by no means just happen to be around because the firefight takes place in a cargo area.

Thusly, we can assume that tactics play no role in Star Wars ground combat, and very little in space combat because all the characteristics of one miniscule branch of one battle on one planet apply to the entire galaxy.

ESPECIALLY characteristics that don't really apply to said battle in the first place but would make Wars look bad so you may naturally assume they were there. Because even if the Ewoks rarely actually went HtH with the Stormies but instead used slings and bows, they SHOULD have and thus you may use that as an argument against Wars tactics.

Argue if you want, but I'll get my friends in the goverment to kil-err, talk sternly to you.
Do I sound familiar?

After a fashion.

[Darth Wong]

Some would argue that because the Stormtroopers even need armor, Star Wars ground combat routinely degenerates into bloody melees where the stormtrooper cannot make use of preprepared defenses.

I suppose these people must believe that Delta Force sucks, because they wear body armour too.

[Solauren]

Anyone that doesn't believe in the use of armor in ranged combat has obviously never heard of kinetic energy, shrapenel, debris, or even hurled objects.

[Darth_Bastard]

Since Trek is essentially based on Roddenberry's wish regarding what the military was really like, it stands to reason that the model of combat Trek writers keep in their minds is utterly unrealistic. Hence, there's all these battles in which heroes can go around shooting opponents like they activated God Mode in Quake, never mind the consequences of being shot in the groin or such.

Wars, I believe, tends to follow a more fantasy, Lord Of The Rings type of model of combat, where the writer gives each side a type of protection or armour, and then comes up with a way their opponents defeat it. Hence, the armour of the Stormtroopers is a mix of plastic/ceramic plate and kevlar/composite weave. Exactly how effective this is going to be against explosive conducted heat/energy is not important to the writer for the most plart.

Trek authors should have a long talk with the staff at Games Workshop about the differences types of projectiles and armour make in a battle.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Since Trek is essentially based on Roddenberry's wish regarding what the military was really like, it stands to reason that the model of combat Trek writers keep in their minds is utterly unrealistic. Hence, there's all these battles in which heroes can go around shooting opponents like they activated God Mode in Quake, never mind the consequences of being shot in the groin or such.

Tell me about it, I'm surprises Roddenberry didn't just call the UFP the United Soviet Federation of Planets, and have Kirk named Invincible Hero of the Proletariat.

Wars, I believe, tends to follow a more fantasy, Lord Of The Rings type of model of combat, where the writer gives each side a type of protection or armour, and then comes up with a way their opponents defeat it.

Nothin much defeats it, other than blasters, ou either get shrapnel, sharpened objects, or slugthrowers to the body sleeve, or a metal slug to the visor (Those Tuskens must've been damn good shots to have pulled that off in the thick of combat)

the armour of the Stormtroopers is a mix of plastic/ceramic plate and kevlar/composite weave. Exactly how effective this is going to be against explosive conducted heat/energy is not important to the writer for the most plart.

Enough to survive shots that land right next to you from a pistol that's projectile explodes with the force of a small grenade launcher?

[Jericho Kross]

Newer stormtrooper armour can now take direct blaster shots [ ones they died from in the movies].

[Ritterin Sophia]

It's Legacy Comics isn't it? Which comic? Can you give us a scan? Was it handheld, a bi/tripod mounted, a blaster cannon?