nBSG Episode 317: "Maelstrom"...

[Uraniun235]

Or it could be that the stresses of previous battles had caused underlying damage which the deck crew couldn't pick up, or simply missed.

[CaptJodan]

I gave it a 4, mostly because I thought that Kara would be back, given that it sure as hell sounded like she was one of the 5, and how it tied in with 3's experiments, as stated. But since it looks highly unlikely (I'll have to listen to the podcast), it probably squeeks out a five. Starship porn helped a lot. Very nice starship porn.

I really thought she was going to be one of the 5. Hmm.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I think Starbuck will be back, definitely. Though she won't return for a good long while, maybe half or a good two-thirds of Season Four, or perhaps until that season's finale. But for now it seems that they're treating her as essentially dead and gone.

I have to admit that I think it's funny to read people saying "man, if they do X then I'll be totally through with the show." I don't know why I find it so funny, I just do.

[Master of Ossus]

It's certainly possible that since they were in a gas giant that the Lee's clearly more aerodynamic and modern fighter was better designed to endure the stresses at that depth than the old school Viper. It's possible that the Viper Mk. VII can take it, while the Mk II broke up when Kara nose dived, or Lee did a saner manuever in order to get to that altitude and thus wasn't under the same stress.

Or it could be that the stresses of previous battles had caused underlying damage which the deck crew couldn't pick up, or simply missed.

I thought the hard-deck was described as the altitude from which it was no longer possible for Vipers to return to orbit. In that case, it seems unlikely that they were worried about it as a type of crush depth. They did mention that the pressure would crush their birds a couple of times, but only after they were no longer capable of returning to orbit (and, presumably, when they would run out of fuel and be pulled lower by the planet's gravity).

I suppose it's possible that Kara put her bird under more stress than was necessary, or that the deck crew missed it (as hinted at in the deleted scene), but I think that the Raptor's genuine existence makes much more sense and more ably describes the destruction of Starbuck's Viper (since Lee and the Chief also didn't seem concerned over the alleged maintenance problems).

[Covenant]

Her viper's canopy has a hole in it. That'd really compromise it's integrity to pressure pretty badly right there.

[Vympel]

but I think that the Raptor's genuine existence

You mean Heavy Raider, right?

[Gil Hamilton]

Her viper's canopy has a hole in it. That'd really compromise it's integrity to pressure pretty badly right there.

The question is whether Kara imagined it or not. It seems odd that something would blast through the canopy straight on and not kill her of even hurt her. That's what makes it hard to believe it was a Raider bullet that did it. If it punched though the canopy straight on like that... where did it go afterwards? Shouldn't she be dead or some of the cockpit be damaged?

I thought the hard-deck was described as the altitude from which it was no longer possible for Vipers to return to orbit. In that case, it seems unlikely that they were worried about it as a type of crush depth. They did mention that the pressure would crush their birds a couple of times, but only after they were no longer capable of returning to orbit (and, presumably, when they would run out of fuel and be pulled lower by the planet's gravity).

I suppose it's possible that Kara put her bird under more stress than was necessary, or that the deck crew missed it (as hinted at in the deleted scene), but I think that the Raptor's genuine existence makes much more sense and more ably describes the destruction of Starbuck's Viper (since Lee and the Chief also didn't seem concerned over the alleged maintenance problems).

It's certainly possible, but on the other hand, did you know that the Space Shuttle is required on re-entry to enter at a precise angle (I think the range is two degrees), or it either blows up or bounces back into space? Not only was Starbuck tripping balls, she was also knocked out for an undetermined amount of time while her ship was diving. At the speed she must have been traveling, air resistance is a true bitch. She could have easily done fucked up and slammed into the atmosphere, which caused her Viper to break up. The visual evidence for it was there, with a bright ion cloud around her ship and a steep angle before she blew up.

[Turin]

Her viper's canopy has a hole in it. That'd really compromise it's integrity to pressure pretty badly right there.

The question is whether Kara imagined it or not. It seems odd that something would blast through the canopy straight on and not kill her of even hurt her. That's what makes it hard to believe it was a Raider bullet that did it. If it punched though the canopy straight on like that... where did it go afterwards? Shouldn't she be dead or some of the cockpit be damaged?

It could have been a ricochet hit. The canopy has an angle to it, so whatever hit could have glanced off but still transfered enough energy to the canopy to break it. There's a lot of "could-of"s in there, but the whole scene is full of could-ofs.

[Gil Hamilton]

It could have been a ricochet hit. The canopy has an angle to it, so whatever hit could have glanced off but still transfered enough energy to the canopy to break it. There's a lot of "could-of"s in there, but the whole scene is full of could-ofs.

It was a pretty clean hole in the canopy, not what I'd expect if it ricocheted.

[RogueIce]

It could have been a ricochet hit. The canopy has an angle to it, so whatever hit could have glanced off but still transfered enough energy to the canopy to break it. There's a lot of "could-of"s in there, but the whole scene is full of could-ofs.

It was a pretty clean hole in the canopy, not what I'd expect if it ricocheted.

There looked to be some kind of black "scorching" or something in the cockpit behind her head. I thought that might've been from whatever came through the canopy. But I could be misremembering it.

[Sam Or I]

A new Starbuck Theory I just came up with in the shower. (Yes I think neoBSG in the shower because I am a complete geek.)

She is dead, but she just pulled an Obi-Wan Kenobi on us. She is going to come back in some ones head. (Most likely Apollos, but it could be anyone) Possibly being the anti-head six, to disrupt the "plan".

It would not make her death any less significant and It sticks to the known universe fairly well.

[Sam Or I]

PS I hope they leave her dead and she does not re appear in any form, except maybe a flash back here and there.

But the whole destiny bit makes me believe otherwise.

[consequences]

A new Starbuck Theory I just came up with in the shower. (Yes I think neoBSG in the shower because I am a complete geek.)

She is dead, but she just pulled an Obi-Wan Kenobi on us. She is going to come back in some ones head. (Most likely Apollos, but it could be anyone) Possibly being the anti-head six, to disrupt the "plan".

It would not make her death any less significant and It sticks to the known universe fairly well.

Ooh! Leoben gets stuck with head Starbuck. That would be awesome.

Or at least morbidly amusing a couple of times.

[jedisam]

Hey there, new to the forums.

Personally, I enjoyed the ep, but What the frak happened to Kara's destiny? Her destiny was to commit suicide? It didn't really make sense. She's the ONLY character that has been confirmed as not a cylon so what gives?

[Master of Ossus]

but I think that the Raptor's genuine existence

You mean Heavy Raider, right?

D'oh. Clearly.

[Master of Ossus]

It's certainly possible, but on the other hand, did you know that the Space Shuttle is required on re-entry to enter at a precise angle (I think the range is two degrees), or it either blows up or bounces back into space?

I did. They made a pretty big deal about that in Apollo 13 with an earlier reentry vehicle.

Not only was Starbuck tripping balls, she was also knocked out for an undetermined amount of time while her ship was diving. At the speed she must have been traveling, air resistance is a true bitch. She could have easily done fucked up and slammed into the atmosphere, which caused her Viper to break up. The visual evidence for it was there, with a bright ion cloud around her ship and a steep angle before she blew up.

True, but it didn't seem to me that anyone was concerned about her angle-of-approach through the atmosphere. They were only concerned about the hard-deck prior to the explosion of her Viper. Apollo also didn't seem to be having any trouble with atmospheric angles, and he had caught up to Kara by then.

I'm not saying that the evidence is definitive one way or the other, but given the shot of Lee when the Heavy Raider is visible, and the explosion of Kara's Viper above the hard-deck (as shown by Lee's Viper's subsequent escape--why the heck doesn't his Viper have an appreciably lower hard-deck?), and their definition of the hard-deck, which was given earlier in the episode, I think it much more likely that the Heavy Raider on Kara's final mission was real.

[Agent Fisher]

She's the ONLY character that has been confirmed as not a cylon so what gives?

Uh, what about Helo and either Chief or Cally?

[Sam Or I]

She's the ONLY character that has been confirmed as not a cylon so what gives?

Uh, what about Helo and either Chief or Cally?

Due to the kid factor.

Helo is definately not. Chief and Cally, one of them is not, most likely both. The Adamas are most likely not Cylons. (Otherwise they would not be stressing Heras importance.)

Roslin most likely is not, due to the magical cylon/human DNA saving her.

[CaptJodan]

Personally, I enjoyed the ep, but What the frak happened to Kara's destiny? Her destiny was to commit suicide?

I was JUST coming here to ask the exact same question to the masses. The more I think about it, the more I'm kinda pissed off by the whole thing. It wasn't that it wasn't a great episode, it was. It's just that didn't make any sense.

If Kara was explained to just be fucked out of her mind, and she thinks herself more special than she is, then fine. I can totally accept that she was just a wackaloon that finally decided to prevent herself from killing others and do herself in. If the destiny crap was the method, then fine.

But the implication here is that she HAD a destiny. And that it was important, bla bla bla. If anything, the podcast made me more confused about the issue, because it really seemed as if Moore decided that her destiny was to commit suicide. To face death. Well Jesus H Zeus, we all have to do that at some point, and many of her underling pilots have had to face it before she did. That doesn't make her special. So what the hell am I missing here? IF Moore doesn't bring her back in any capacity, then what the hell is so special about her destiny?

[Uraniun235]

That's partially why I have a hard time believing that nothing more will come of Starbuck, because completely ditching the character at this point is flushing away god knows how much time spent building up to something. If that's really what happened here, it's a disturbing precedent because it means that anything they've spent time building up could be flushed away just as easily.

Which, for those fans who desperately want Battlestar Livejournal, is no problem at all... but for those of us expecting a continuing plot out of neoBSG is somewhat more troubling.

But then I'm starting to think that the "And they have a Plan" line was just bullshit during season 1.

[RogueIce]

That's partially why I have a hard time believing that nothing more will come of Starbuck, because completely ditching the character at this point is flushing away god knows how much time spent building up to something. If that's really what happened here, it's a disturbing precedent because it means that anything they've spent time building up could be flushed away just as easily.

Which, for those fans who desperately want Battlestar Livejournal, is no problem at all... but for those of us expecting a continuing plot out of neoBSG is somewhat more troubling.

Maybe they're just trying to give us cold hard reality again?

Although that would probably work better if it showed the Raider killing her directly rather than suicide. But maybe she just decided that, whatever this "destiny" is she wants no part of it.

Kinda like when Sharon tried offing herself in season one, except Starbuck was better at it.

[Uraniun235]

Maybe they're just trying to give us cold hard reality again?

Reality does not always make for the best possible story.

[Gil Hamilton]

True, but it didn't seem to me that anyone was concerned about her angle-of-approach through the atmosphere. They were only concerned about the hard-deck prior to the explosion of her Viper. Apollo also didn't seem to be having any trouble with atmospheric angles, and he had caught up to Kara by then.

At the same time, going below a certain altitude safely wouldn't cause your ship to break up and explode, it just means you can't return to space. It wasn't like she was trapped down there, her Viper went into a dive, an ion cloud was clearly visible, and then she exploded. That doesn't sound like the hard-deck is what got her, but a bad entry wrecked her. The Viper Mk. II aren't very aerodynamic; they are very blocky. Coming in as fast as she did in a ship shaped like hers was and in a hard descent as she was (due to being knocked out and hallucinating to begin with) easily accounts for her death without making the Raider real, whether or not anyone was talking about it.

I'm not saying that the evidence is definitive one way or the other, but given the shot of Lee when the Heavy Raider is visible, and the explosion of Kara's Viper above the hard-deck (as shown by Lee's Viper's subsequent escape--why the heck doesn't his Viper have an appreciably lower hard-deck?), and their definition of the hard-deck, which was given earlier in the episode, I think it much more likely that the Heavy Raider on Kara's final mission was real.

I don't know about that. They were above the hard deck, but that wouldn't stop a gas giants atmosphere from ripping Kara's viper apart (considering they were in a storm system in said gas giant... maybe not a 50,000 kilometer hurricane of death like you'd see on Jupiter, but it was inclement flying conditions) if she's buzzing through it and blacked out. It really doesn't take a Raider or a hard raider to kill her, since for much of that scene she was passed out and piloting by reflex if at all. Her blowing up above the hard-deck is completely plausible without taking any more damage than from the conditions in the atmosphere if she wasn't careful (and she wasn't).

Given Moore's podcast, where he actually calls it "the phantom raider" and the fact that DRADIS could see the vipers but not the raider and that we know that the raider was a phantom earlier in the episode when Kara was pouring lead into empty air, the only thing that lends credence to the Raider actually being there is the one shot from Lee's cockpit where he sees *something* there.

[CaptJodan]

To nitpick, because I'm still not 100% sure that the Raider was either real or fake (though I'm leaning towards fake), but the fact that DRADIS didn't pick it up isn't really conclusive. Besides the interference soup issue, there's the fact that if the Raider was going for stealth, they wouldn't exactly be using their transponder, which Vipers most likely were. Those probably allow Galactica and others to pick up their own far easier than it would a Raider who's trying to sneak around. We see in Acts of Contrition how, even in a low jammed area, a knocked out transponder on a Viper can make DRADIS lose contact with a ship.

[Kane Starkiller]

I don't see how the raider could be fake. I mean the camera's viewpoint was located behind and to the left of Apollo's Viper when we last saw it. So who was having hallucinations? The audience?

Anyway how 'bout they start actually putting some real distance between 12 colonies and the fleet. So that we finally get a feel that Earth is a long way from there.