Civil War #7 - Spoilers

[DPDarkPrimus]

In the Initiative; Ms. Marvel flat out says Cap isn't dead, implies it was fake, and that they're trying to save his life on the Raft. Since there is no further authority on this, that's what we should go with.

Since it's been stated that she was LYING, uhm... no, we shouldn't.

[Edward Yee]

And once again, I'm glad that I barely give the Spidey books a serious read.

It should be noted though that this is only acknowledged at all in the Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man title; no known references (to my knowledge) to it in any other titles; the current arc has Sandman's father Floyd Baker onto Death Row for the alleged murder of that AU Ben, causing a temporary Sandman-Spidey teamup to try and prove otherwise.

[JME2]

Ah.

[Manus Celer Dei]

Holy crap.

This is just...undescribable. Wow.

I'm actually quite looking forward to this now. It's been a while since I've seen something so batshit stupid. I really want to see how bad this goes.

I just hope he gets a corny name as well, like Capital Punishment or something.

[The Cooler King]

Dear.
Fucking.
Christ.


That's just...

It's so...


...sorry. I think I threw up in my mouth a little.

[KrauserKrauser]

Nothing says Liberty and Justice like arbitrary death dealt with Heavy Weapons fire.

He looks like what a bad fan would make of how Frank Castle would feel. His best bet would have been to just take Cap's shield and paint the Punisher logo on it, no need to suddenly go flaming queer on the fan base.

[KrauserKrauser]

You know what, forget what I just said, I would be 1000% behind the costume if the first thing he did was shoot Iron Man in the head. Either Iron Man or Mr. Fantastic, I would be behind that costume all the way if he took out all of the heroes that turned into complete douchebags in the Civil War.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Meh. The Costume itself is not so bad, per se.

I just hate the guns. That's not what Captain America is about.

I do like Punisher's old stories, where he showed genuine compassion. I havent touched any of the new "Max" crap, cause it's all just him killing people and masturbating to how AWESOME it is to muder people he deems unworthy of life. Because irony is un-Punisher.

The new costume is cool, IMO, just loose the huge ass Cable guns.

I'd redesign the shield to look like a big ass skull-in-a-star like the symbol on his arm, that's cool.

[Stark]

The costume 'isn't so bad'? It looks like he stole Captain America's boots. It has two rows of ammo (six loose rounds = useful) one inverted to FORM THE MOUTH OF THE EMO SKULL. All the pouches remind me of the SA.com Fashion SWAT with some 90s team where everyone had eight thousand pouches.

The very idea of 'liberty AND death' strikes me as so stupid it makes my brain hurt. The Punisher was stupid enough BEFORE, now they've just gone that extra mile.

Don't forget to keep buying the books, guys.

[LadyTevar]

Now I am very HAPPY not to have gotten involved in this series.

[The Yosemite Bear]

tell me about it.

no given the size of those irons, I think the punisher should have a crossover with some adaptus astres....

[Praxis]

Now I am very HAPPY not to have gotten involved in this series.

Other than the ending (last half of the last issue), it really wasn't so bad.
People tend to just get really vocal.

Actually, I rather liked it. Other than the ending.

[NeoGoomba]

They should bring Liefield in to pencil. Those pecs don't look CAP enough

[DPDarkPrimus]

I think that drawing is one of Marvel's little joke illustrations that they put out to toy with peoples' minds.

Oh, and Civil War: The Confession is really good. It made me unhate Iron Man.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The costume 'isn't so bad'? It looks like he stole Captain America's boots. It has two rows of ammo (six loose rounds = useful) one inverted to FORM THE MOUTH OF THE EMO SKULL. All the pouches remind me of the SA.com Fashion SWAT with some 90s team where everyone had eight thousand pouches.

The very idea of 'liberty AND death' strikes me as so stupid it makes my brain hurt. The Punisher was stupid enough BEFORE, now they've just gone that extra mile.

Let me rephrase.
It looks vastly less retarded than Cap's old costume, which i was never a fan of. Skintight chainmail (how'd that work?) colored like the American flag, with a huge 'A' on his forehead and bellbottom boots. It's like a float at a Pride parade exploded on his head and he was showered with the remains and decided it'd be a kickin' rad costume.

At least this one has, you know, pockets to carry one's stuff around in. I always thought it was, in fact, a good idea to have some kind of pouches or something. Someone like Batman for example. It's retarded to have little capsule things on his belt holding huge, dinnerplate sized bat shaped boomerangs and such. People make fun of Cable cause he had the nerve to actually wear pockets, pouches and carry his weaponry on his person. The NERVE!

Don't forget to keep buying the books, guys.

It's not like it's expensive or something. Personally i have more fun reading even a poorly made comic (some of that indie crap i sometimes have teh misfortune to happen upon) than some of the shitty stuff i find in many poorly written novels.

The Star Wars EU, for example, swindled me out of a good thirty bucks or so. I'd gladly blow that on some crappy comics by that guy whose best work was Invader ZIM than go through that again.

[18-Till-I-Die]

To add...

I'm not exactly what could be called a sterotypical comic book geek though. I only read a few books here and there, not whole series. And i buy them individually. I've no favorite character i MUST follow and i dont go out of my way to pad the pockets of Company A just because i like their characters or books over Company B.

So maybe some people spend more money on it than me.

[Ghost Rider]

Good to see Marvel still has sheep to feed and can still put this shit out .

Honestly this was a mix of Armor Wars, Cap's being tarred and feathered, but with the added bonus of killing him all to make way for next year's giant useless crossover : World War Hulk.

The more things change, the more they stay the same. And after 20+ years, you'd be amazed how many times you see this passed around as new and different.

[NeoGoomba]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. And after 20+ years, you'd be amazed how many times you see this passed around as new and different.

If only they'd listen to reason and have Alex Ross paint a Deadpool/Howard the Duck crossover. THAT would jumpstart the creative jucies, dammit.

[JME2]

The more things change, the more they stay the same. And after 20+ years, you'd be amazed how many times you see this passed around as new and different.

If only they'd listen to reason and have Alex Ross paint a Deadpool/Howard the Duck crossover. THAT would jumpstart the creative jucies, dammit.

Or if the theory circulating over on Newsarama are true and that Deadpool is the new Ronin over in New Avengers...

[Edward Yee]

I just hate the guns. That's not what Captain America is about.

Do you take the same issue with Ultimate Cap? As for Frank Castle retaining the "huge ass Cable guns" -- assuming that this is actually canon -- I blame the whole thing on the collision between the original reported intent of PWJ ("Punisher in Earth-616 actually having a good reason to use those hee-YUUge guns") and Punisher-Cap what-the-fuck.

As for "not what Captain America is about," under a good writer I think Frank Castle himself would be mentally debating the weirdness. (Then again, according to a Matt Fraction interview, the animosity is completely one-way.)

I do like Punisher's old stories, where he showed genuine compassion. I havent touched any of the new "Max" crap, cause it's all just him killing people and masturbating to how AWESOME it is to muder people he deems unworthy of life. Because irony is un-Punisher.

At least it's a separate continuity. I read it though, both for the difference and because I find the storytelling technique of focus on the character from others' points of view interesting; its apparent usage in PWJ #4 and PWJ #5 (very interesting) appealed to me as well.

[Jim Raynor]

Cap's being tarred and feathered, but with the added bonus of killing him all to make way for next year's giant useless crossover : World War Hulk.

You mean this year. WWH is coming in what, two or three months? And with a bunch of CW epilogues, tie-ins, and tie-in miniseries still running, the gap between the two isn't going to be very big at all.

Do you comic fans tire of these endless crossovers "events?" How long has it been since Marvel told a normal story with their characters?

[18-Till-I-Die]

I just hate the guns. That's not what Captain America is about.

Do you take the same issue with Ultimate Cap?

Now here, i'm fairly hypocritical i must admit . On the one hand, yes i feel it betrays the ideals of the character to make him such a jingoistic, ultra-conservitive lapdog. On the other hand, it's an alternate universe so i can excuse it. Meanwhile on the gripping hand, the Ultimates is such a fucking cool comic i have trouble mustering too much negativity.

As for Frank Castle retaining the "huge ass Cable guns" -- assuming that this is actually canon -- I blame the whole thing on the collision between the original reported intent of PWJ ("Punisher in Earth-616 actually having a good reason to use those hee-YUUge guns") and Punisher-Cap what-the-fuck.

As for "not what Captain America is about," under a good writer I think Frank Castle himself would be mentally debating the weirdness. (Then again, according to a Matt Fraction interview, the animosity is completely one-way.)

I'm not really sure what Matt Fraction said, or, to be honest, who that is. Someone inside Marvel? I'm more familiar with the characters than their 'handlers', i wasnt even truly aware of who Mark Miller was, till recently. I tend to ignore such stuff unless it becomes important, i dont kno why.

At any rate, Cap is, in some ways, like the Marvel Batman. He's basically a normal guy, with a fuckload of training and built like a Greek God, who fights his enemies on very unequal terms in their favor. They have superpowers, lasers, grenades and he has...a shield. It to me makes the victory more 'valid' in as much as he has no healing powers, flight, superhuman strength to fall back on, he's like Batman. Guns kind of get in the way of that. If written correctly, of course, i'll gladly change my tune. I may be jumping the gun...pun intended.

At least it's a separate continuity. I read it though, both for the difference and because I find the storytelling technique of focus on the character from others' points of view interesting; its apparent usage in PWJ #4 and PWJ #5 (very interesting) appealed to me as well.

I just find it a little ironic, the way it's written. I remember when i used to read Punisher a lot, way back when i was a youngin', and he was a far more sympathetic and less myopic character. Now he's turned into far more of a crazy, almost supervillain like character, like the Joker without the corpsepaint or something.

Do you comic fans tire of these endless crossovers "events?" How long has it been since Marvel told a normal story with their characters?

I cant speak for anyone else, but me personally...meh.

It's all basically escapism for me. If it's well writen, i'll read it. I would prefer a normal story arc, in some ways, but it doesnt really matter to me. It's fantasy it's escapism, the whole thing is just an ongoing fantasy novel as far as i'm concerned.

[Stark]

There's something deeply ironic about someone who hates the EU as a hat full of shit with 'Star Wars' written on it, yet describes this sort of thing as 'well written'. There aren't that many well-written comics or graphic novels... so I don't read many. The need to read comics clearly drives people to lower their standards - either that or they accept that comic writing is rubbish, thus they have no right to complain about any of it.

[Edward Yee]

Now here, i'm fairly hypocritical i must admit . On the one hand, yes i feel it betrays the ideals of the character to make him such a jingoistic, ultra-conservitive lapdog.

If compared to -616 Captain America, I would note that 616's seems to have had a lot more time to acclimatize to the changed moral/sociopolitical climate than Ult-Cap, regardless of how much Ult-Cap has developed, and that 616's Captain America was thawed out a lot closer to his own time than Ult-Cap. (I remember panels from his unfreezing issue where he noticed that some elements like women and cars were not so different.)

I'm not really sure what Matt Fraction said, or, to be honest, who that is.

He's the author of Punisher War Journal, and in this interview he gave his take on the Punisher-Captain America relationship, as well as stating that he intended to continue it. Based on that, I can see Steve Rogers (name used to distinguish from Castle's "Cap"), after somehow getting out of the Raft, being fucking PIIIIIIIIISSED when he finds out.

(Btw, I don't have a problem with your ignoring; I admittedly do the same. )

At any rate, Cap is, in some ways, like the Marvel Batman. He's basically a normal guy, with a fuckload of training and built like a Greek God, who fights his enemies on very unequal terms in their favor. They have superpowers, lasers, grenades and he has...a shield. It to me makes the victory more 'valid' in as much as he has no healing powers, flight, superhuman strength to fall back on, he's like Batman. Guns kind of get in the way of that. If written correctly, of course, i'll gladly change my tune. I may be jumping the gun...pun intended.

If somehow no writer could save a fundamentally flawed idea, then that would be the fault of this sudden deviation from what was the apparent original intent of the Punisher War Journal, as presented prior to Civil War #5: Specifically, that the Punisher was supposed to be essentially neutral about the SHRA and the Civil War -- until one side started using supervillains -- and would go after supervillains since the superheroes were fighting one another, upgrading accordingly. (For example, a longarm taken from a SHIELD armory to punched through the Rhino's armor and broke his horn... then I swear I saw him wearing a fucking pwnerfist.)

A thought just now that I had, though unrelated -- the MAX version of the Punisher presents an interesting dichotomy in that to my knowledge, everyone who's targeted him has done so with "mind games."

(Spoilers for back arcs of MAX Pun: Nick Cavella dug up the Castle family's skeletons and pissed on them, then sent the footage to the news to throw Castle off his game mentally. The antagonists of 'The Slavers' had their NYPD mole initiate an renewed hunt for the Punisher to keep him off of their backs, and in 'Man of Stone' Gen. Zakharov first tried to use O'Brien, then himself, as human bait to lure Castle off of his home ground. In the current arc, the widows of previous victims use one of their own as bait (a fake sex slave) to lure him to an ambush.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Stark:

I have different standards for different kinds of entertainment.

For example, i expect a comic book (which, lets be honest, is usually aimed at young teens in the 13-15 year old range) to be less extravagant than, say, a NOVEL written by an (allegedly) professional writer who is hired by a reputable company to make a licenced book based on a world famous movie fanchise i love.

Hence, writing that would be 'average to good' in a comic book, if transposed to a real novel by a supposed real writer, would rate as below average to WTF. I've no illusions about comics being some form of high art, as some people do. It's a fun way to kill time, like movies, TV and books...only less expensive than two of those three and with more 'color', as i call it (read: variety), than TV.

By the same token i dont expect much from a TV show, whose production values will most certainly be considerably lower, where as i expect more from a major motion picture which is presumably writen and directed by what i would take to be a more professional stable of talent. Something that on a TV show would be good, in a movie would be just above average at best. The one show that really was movie quality writing i've ever seen was Firefly.