Taking a leave of absence

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2007-03-19 02:14am

In short: Fuck this place. My prescence has been dwindling due to various instances of pure jackassery here, and with the opening of the metaphorical floodgates of hate, stupidity, and shrill screaming in the Mess, I just don't see a point in sticking around here anymore. That was the one last decent place to go fuckheads, way to cock that up - so much for it being a place where any views, no matter how unpopular, could be safely expressed. And don't even dare get pissed at me for coming here with this, you assholes trotted out our dirty laundry here and here first.

I nominate Elfdart to serve in my place.

Later losers.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2007-03-19 02:15am

Oh and if I ever figure out which one of you contacted my chain of command over what I said I will find you and hurt your career as badly as you did mine.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2007-03-19 03:06am

.... The Hell?

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2007-03-19 06:34am

*looks at calender 10 days out from Apr 1*

Deja'vu ...

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2007-03-19 06:37am

I don't know I'm hoping it's not something real....

owch.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2007-03-19 08:06am

Chris OFarrell wrote:*looks at calender 10 days out from Apr 1*

Deja'vu ...

It's still ten days out; didn't the Mess incident two years ago start on March 31 when it was technically April 1 somewhere?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2007-03-19 01:30pm

Why is this in the senate?

Whip? Mod?

Post by **Coyote** » 2007-03-19 01:52pm

Knife wrote:Why is this in the senate?

Whip? Mod?

Check "belowdecks"; it is being dealt with.

The only reason I'm putting this here is because there may yet be something brought up here about it, until then we need to make sure this absolutely has to be brought up publicly.

I am trying to keep this on the Q.T. as much as possible.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-03-19 04:10pm

This is fucked up.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2007-03-19 05:42pm

Ender wrote:Oh and if I ever figure out which one of you contacted my chain of command over what I said I will find you and hurt your career as badly as you did mine.

This concerns me. If this claim is true then someone from this board took a personal vendetta and actioned against the private life of another member. There is of course the possibility that there may have been reason behind this. Without knowing what was said and why, we won't know for sure.

I believe this merits investigation, I request that the relevant Mess thread or threads either be HOSed or placed somewhere where only the senate can see it.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2007-03-19 05:51pm

I second Spyder's motion. We need to do all we can on our end to find the culprit and punish him to the best of our abilities.

But since I'm a vendictive bitch, I'd want to return the favor he paid Ender, and have a chat with his CO.

Post by **Coyote** » 2007-03-19 05:56pm

We're handling this as best we can in our own backyard; as I mentioned this may yet become public-attention-worthy but for now RogueIce and I are handling a great dal of IMs and such with people.

A purge may yet be had.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2007-03-19 05:57pm

It's important that we get all the facts first. Context matters.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2007-03-19 06:39pm

Coyote wrote:We're handling this as best we can in our own backyard; as I mentioned this may yet become public-attention-worthy but for now RogueIce and I are handling a great dal of IMs and such with people.

If there need to be public hearings or anything of the sort, I'm sure you and RogueIce won't hesitate to bring the issue in front of the Senate. And I think I speak for most everyone in saying that if Ender is correct (I don't mean to say he's a liar, but the audacity of someone trying to ruin someone else's career because of an argument online -- only select morons like SDI Stewie have tried to take things into real life -- stuns me), the translation of an internet vendetta into an attempt to ruin a career is simply despicable and ought to be dealt with severely.

That said, I don't think anybody should be leaping to conclusions and jumping down throats. Let's let the moderators of the Mess handle the issue, and if the time comes, then we can rubberstamp guillotine choppings or whatever is deemed fit.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2007-03-19 07:38pm

I will not give approval to anything of the sort without seeing the evidence and hearing the other side of the story.

Rubber stamping is not our function.

This senate was nominated from individuals that have shown skill with debate and logic, we should be up to the task. We need to find out who was responsible, but more importantly we need to find out why. What was it that Ender said that would be so damaging to his career?

I strongly believe that this should at least have senate oversight, because at the very least we're probably going to have to review board policies on vendettas and personal information.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2007-03-19 08:00pm

Spyder wrote:I will not give approval to anything of the sort without seeing the evidence and hearing the other side of the story.

Rubber stamping is not our function.

Of course, you're right; I was trying to inject a bit of humor in the post. My apologies: I should have used a smilie, but I thought it was over-the-top enough to not be taken seriously.

This senate was nominated from individuals that have shown skill with debate and logic, we should be up to the task. We need to find out who was responsible, but more importantly we need to find out why. What was it that Ender said that would be so damaging to his career?

This is why I cautioned against leaping to conclusions and jumping down throats; really, all we know at this point is

There were two threads on gays in the military in which Mess members were flamed;
It blew up in the Mess; and
Ender has left and claims his career has been damaged because of a vendetta taken into real life.

I strongly believe that this should at least have senate oversight, because at the very least we're probably going to have to review board policies on vendettas and personal information.

I agree with your general sentiments, but at the same time the Senate is a public forum and there is almost certainly going to be private information that will have to come up in any sort of official Senate investigation. If the Senate is going to have oversight, Senators need to have access to full information from the investigation, and it's quite possible that some of that information will be sensitive (for a quick example, Ender's real name and position coming up could be a possibility); at the same time, that information needs to be kept confidential and certainly shouldn't be posted in a forum everyone can read.

Perhaps this oversight function could be handled by permitting Senators to view the Mess or a new forum to see relevant threads? Or perhaps it should simply be done by PM? Or perhaps Senate oversight is simply not necessary until or unless the investigation has to come public.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2007-03-19 08:20pm

There are already, both actually, senators and govenors with in the Mess itself. And with out sounding elitist, the first and most importent rule in the Mess is 'what goes on in the Mess stays in the Mess'.

That rule is there for a damn good reason, and as far as I'm concerned, is sacred. If you disagree, join the military, then join the Mess, then petition Rob Wilson to change the rule.

Your choice.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2007-03-19 09:31pm

I think we're all having an over-inflated sense of ourselves here, and what the Senate represents. For board issues, the Senate's fine. But when RL infractions occur, hey, we're just a message board, people.

At that point, there's more important things going on than worrying about who we're going to ban first. I'm sure Ender couldn't give less of a crap about that right now.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2007-03-19 09:46pm

Surlethe wrote:
Spyder wrote:I will not give approval to anything of the sort without seeing the evidence and hearing the other side of the story.

Rubber stamping is not our function.
Of course, you're right; I was trying to inject a bit of humor in the post. My apologies: I should have used a smilie, but I thought it was over-the-top enough to not be taken seriously.

Sweat as

This senate was nominated from individuals that have shown skill with debate and logic, we should be up to the task. We need to find out who was responsible, but more importantly we need to find out why. What was it that Ender said that would be so damaging to his career?
This is why I cautioned against leaping to conclusions and jumping down throats; really, all we know at this point is
There were two threads on gays in the military in which Mess members were flamed;

It blew up in the Mess; and

Ender has left and claims his career has been damaged because of a vendetta taken into real life.

I agree with that assessment, which is why I think we should get context, so we can prevent a witch hunt as much as anything.

I strongly believe that this should at least have senate oversight, because at the very least we're probably going to have to review board policies on vendettas and personal information.
I agree with your general sentiments, but at the same time the Senate is a public forum and there is almost certainly going to be private information that will have to come up in any sort of official Senate investigation. If the Senate is going to have oversight, Senators need to have access to full information from the investigation, and it's quite possible that some of that information will be sensitive (for a quick example, Ender's real name and position coming up could be a possibility); at the same time, that information needs to be kept confidential and certainly shouldn't be posted in a forum everyone can read.

Perhaps this oversight function could be handled by permitting Senators to view the Mess or a new forum to see relevant threads? Or perhaps it should simply be done by PM? Or perhaps Senate oversight is simply not necessary until or unless the investigation has to come public.

Alternatives include installing a private senate forum for the duration of the deliberation or nominating a select committee.

Knife wrote:There are already, both actually, senators and govenors with in the Mess itself. And with out sounding elitist, the first and most importent rule in the Mess is 'what goes on in the Mess stays in the Mess'.

Tell that to Ender.

That rule is there for a damn good reason, and as far as I'm concerned, is sacred. If you disagree, join the military, then join the Mess, then petition Rob Wilson to change the rule.

Your choice.

Lovely little theory, two problems, 1st: This has already spread beyond the mess. 2nd: If someone's taking out personal vendettas against the private lives of board members, I don't give a shit if it happened in the Mess, HAB, SoS:NBA, BotM or the Mod forum, that makes it everyone's business.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2007-03-19 09:47pm

Knife wrote:There are already, both actually, senators and govenors with in the Mess itself. And with out sounding elitist, the first and most importent rule in the Mess is 'what goes on in the Mess stays in the Mess'.

Without sounding condescending, you guys have been breaking the shit out of that rule all week. Already your "private" venomous arguments have been spilling onto the main forums, and according to this very thread some goon took his row with Ender into the real world. So 'what does on in the Mess stays in the Mess' is apparently a purely theoretical statement at this point.

The Mess, like GALE Force and the SoS, is indeed a very private enterprise on this forum. However, that doesn't grant its members any special license to run around doing the shit we've seen lately, and if you can't handle in house the people who own and/or administrate the board will handle it, special double-secret charter or no.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2007-03-19 09:52pm

Lord Poe wrote:I think we're all having an over-inflated sense of ourselves here, and what the Senate represents. For board issues, the Senate's fine. But when RL infractions occur, hey, we're just a message board, people.

At that point, there's more important things going on than worrying about who we're going to ban first. I'm sure Ender couldn't give less of a crap about that right now.

True dat, and I hope nobody has the fantasy that we're accomplishing something of serious import around here. But that doesn't change the fact that we have rules to enforce. Obviously its rather like issuing parking tickets for a triple homicide, but what else is the Senate supposed to do?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2007-03-19 10:05pm

Lord Poe wrote:I think we're all having an over-inflated sense of ourselves here, and what the Senate represents. For board issues, the Senate's fine. But when RL infractions occur, hey, we're just a message board, people.

This is true and important to keep in mind. We can, though, take action in some circumstances based on what happens in real life. For example, we've condoned the Stofsk fund and there's some noise toward making the board banner message one of support for him.

We can't do anything of RL importance, but there is, I think, some role we can play with respect to the board.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2007-03-19 10:08pm

Pablo Sanchez wrote:True dat, and I hope nobody has the fantasy that we're accomplishing something of serious import around here. But that doesn't change the fact that we have rules to enforce. Obviously its rather like issuing parking tickets for a triple homicide, but what else is the Senate supposed to do?

Right now? I'd vote for a definite moratorium until we can have all the evidence on the table. All the crap happening in private forums, PMs, etc, should be dealt with in private, then when it can be assembled where it won't be a RL problem for someone, that's the time to bring it to the senate.

Mike, Rob Dalton, and the higher ups should make that determination. This is beyond the Senate until then, at least in my opinion.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2007-03-19 10:14pm

Lord Poe wrote:Right now? I'd vote for a definite moratorium until we can have all the evidence on the table. All the crap happening in private forums, PMs, etc, should be dealt with in private, then when it can be assembled where it won't be a RL problem for someone, that's the time to bring it to the senate.

Yes, this is why we are here, suggestions.

Mike, Rob Dalton, and the higher ups should make that determination. This is beyond the Senate until then, at least in myopinion.

I agree completely. When I said above that the administration should deal with it if they (evidently) can't, I didn't mean anybody below the highest level of mucky-mucks. I don't think anybody below the admin staff should be involved, obviously including myself. The integrity of the Mess as a place just for the current and former servicemen is something that should definitely be preserved--just because a handful of Mess people shot a load of venom on the public forum and are engaging in other shenanigans, doesn't mean that we have to invite the Senate in. I know that if I was in the Mess, I wouldn't want a bunch of anonymous motherfuckers in something this sensitive.

Post by **Coyote** » 2007-03-19 10:30pm

Putting this all back in the place where it belongs is exactly what I've tried to do. Having RogueIce back helps, as there's two of us not to send IMs, PMs, and catch up with folks running amok.

The problem is, and this is the big deciding factor here, is that we're not exactly sure what happened with Ender. He's not being totally forthcoming about it, and there is a chance that this is either a very minor thing, or something misconstrued completely. I know also that he was very upset about something unrelated in RL, and he may have just lost his patience and blown up.

So RogueIce and I are trying to put everything back where it was, keep this from spilling over, and contact Ender to fight WTF really happened-- and if we really have a right or a reason to be worked up about it.

I do know that something really affected him, and he's upset, and we believe from the context of some of his messages that it has something to do with someone here. Quite frankly, now you all know pretty much what we know...