[quotes] Federation Ground Combat

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-04 11:11am

"Nor the Battle to the Strong"

BOLIAN: We've got more wounded coming in... another hopper just landed.

[comment: "Hoppers" are airborn troop carriers.]

KIRBY: It won't get here for days. In the meantime we're looking at a ground war, which is just what the Klingons want. According to a lieutenant I talked to, they've got so many transport scramblers on-line we can't beam troops anywhere.
JAKE: What about using hoppers?
KIRBY: He said the Klingons have been shooting them out of the sky left and right. Unless something changes, he figures the Klingons'll capture the settlement the day after tomorrow.

[Comment: Transporting troops around is the main tactic used by the Federation. Hoppers appear to be easy to shoot down. Are they armed at all?]

KIRBY: Did you see all the bat'leth wounds today?
(MORE)
KIRBY: (Cont'd) (off Jake's nod When Klingons get mad, they forget about their disruptors, go hand-to-hand.

[Comment: Klingons are so blindly stupid they drop their weapons. Federation troops allow them to get very close.]

JAKE: At least we don't have to worry about them in here.
KIRBY: (working the Replicator) Don't be so sure. Medical personnel are fair game as far as Klingons are concerned. They'll even kill wounded, right in their beds -- they think they're giving them an honorable death, or something.

[Comments: There are no rules of war in ST. Wounded and Medical Personnel are targeted too.]

JAKE: There must be some portable generators we could use.
KALANDRA: They're using them to keep the shields up around the settlement.

[Comments: the settlement has a shield.]

as an EXPLOSION detonates near Jake, obscuring Bashir's
view of him...

BASHIR: Jake!

31 NEW ANGLE - ON JAKE
Another EXPLOSION, dangerously close, makes him stagger back... the area ahead of him is being hit by a volley of EXPLOSIONS, forcing him back... the area behind him is relatively unscathed.

[Comments: Klingon mortars are pathetic.]

BURKE: (with concern) You didn't see a crashed hopper around here, did you?
JAKE: No.
BURKE: (smiles) They made it.
JAKE: Who?
BURKE: My platoon. The Klingons had us pinned down. We couldn't beam out because they had a transport scrambler running... so we called for a hopper. As soon as it set down, the Klingons came at us. Our C.O. ordered me and Brice to lay down cover so the squad could get up the ramp.
(shaking his head as he remembers) By the time Brice got in, the Klingons were practically on top of us. The hopper was taking such a pounding, I didn't think it would make it off the ground.

[Comments: Very interesting. A Hopper can carry a platoon. But in the screwed up world of ST ground combat, Air needs Ground Support, not vice-versa. Curiously, a LT was ordered to lay down cover.]

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-04 11:18am

Curiously, a LT was ordered to lay down cover.

Not really in the bizzare world of the federation an ensign is the lowest rank. A LT ~= to an NCO

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2003-01-04 12:23pm

[Comments: There are no rules of war in ST. Wounded and Medical Personnel are targeted too.]

Thats a bit of a stretch it simply says the Klingons obey no such rules however the Federation seems to.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-04 01:25pm

Rob Wilson has written some absolutely scathing critiques of the astounding incompetence demonstrated in "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Seeing as how he's one of the few people around here to have actually seen real combat, that counts for quite a bit.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-01-04 02:52pm

The large shuttlecraft from Nemesis might actually fit the bill of a hopper. Its large cargo space would be roughly adequate to carry a platoon of troops, and Federation shuttlecraft are notoriously vulnerable to damage.

Regarding the targeting of medical personnel and wounded, the rules of war are hardly universally complied with even in modern warfare. There is also the fact that the dialogue in question appears transparently based on accounts and movies dealing with the Bataan Death March and other Japanese actions during WW2. One scene that I recall from a movie about Bataan focused primarily on the nurses -- though I can't recall the title itself -- involves a medical station full of wounded American soldiers being overrun by Japanese troops, with the wounded being promptly shot and bayoneted in their beds. Poor treatment of enemy wounded is, of course, common to wars in general, but the specific DS9 incident was too transparently lifted from accounts of Japanese behavior in the Philippines during WW2.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-01-04 03:16pm

NecronLord wrote:
Curiously, a LT was ordered to lay down cover.
Not really in the bizzare world of the federation an ensign is the lowest rank. A LT ~= to an NCO

In the USN an Ensign is the lowest commissioned rank.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-04 03:38pm

Howedar wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Curiously, a LT was ordered to lay down cover.
Not really in the bizzare world of the federation an ensign is the lowest rank. A LT ~= to an NCO
In the USN an Ensign is the lowest commissioned rank.

But they should be using Army ranks! Besides, a USN Lt=Army Captain IIRC.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-01-04 03:42pm

It is possible Burke could have been a LT j.g.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-04 03:57pm

Alyeska wrote:It is possible Burke could have been a LT j.g.

That would mean he's still equal to a first Lt.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2003-01-04 04:35pm

Howedar wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
Curiously, a LT was ordered to lay down cover.
Not really in the bizzare world of the federation an ensign is the lowest rank. A LT ~= to an NCO
In the USN an Ensign is the lowest commissioned rank.

In starfleet there are no enlistees. Red shirts in TNG onwards are reffered to without fail as ensigns. There are no enlisted men in starfleet.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-01-04 05:58pm

There definitely are enlisted personnel in Starfleet. Check the TNG episode "The Drumhead." Starfleet Academy maintains a training program for enlisted personnel, and apparently those personnel are even trained on the grounds of the Academy, or at least have access to its park facilities.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-01-04 07:24pm

Lts are a low and very common position in the UFP. Helmsman are Lts. But there aren't many ranks in Trek. If I remember correctly 1 pip is Ensign, 2 are Lt, 2 and a hollow one are Lt Commander, 3 are Commander, and 4 are Captain, then they use different things on their collars for Admirals.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2003-01-04 07:30pm

Patrick Ogaard wrote:There definitely are enlisted personnel in Starfleet. Check the TNG episode "The Drumhead." Starfleet Academy maintains a training program for enlisted personnel, and apparently those personnel are even trained on the grounds of the Academy, or at least have access to its park facilities.

"The Ship" says however enlisted engineers don't go to SFA.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2003-01-04 08:18pm

Darth Wong wrote:

Rob Wilson has written some absolutely scathing critiques of the astounding incompetence demonstrated in "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Seeing as how he's one of the few people around here to have actually seen real combat, that counts for quite a bit.

Could you provide a link to this, I would like to see it.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-01-04 09:39pm

FaxModem1 wrote:Darth Wong wrote:
Rob Wilson has written some absolutely scathing critiques of the astounding incompetence demonstrated in "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Seeing as how he's one of the few people around here to have actually seen real combat, that counts for quite a bit.
Could you provide a link to this, I would like to see it.

Ditto that.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-04 10:28pm

Darth Wong wrote:Rob Wilson has written some absolutely scathing critiques of the astounding incompetence demonstrated in "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Seeing as how he's one of the few people around here to have actually seen real combat, that counts for quite a bit.

link?

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-04 10:29pm

There's no way those mortar bombs could even have been explosive, a 20mm round would be lethal as such tiny ranges. The Klingon's must be using purely kinetic bombs or explosives to weak to even crack the bomb casing.

The VC built more effective weapons out of door bolts and drain pipe.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-01-04 10:30pm

lol, I see Im not the only one interested in the comments.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2003-01-05 03:04am

Anyone want to figure what the Federation casualty ratio would be refighting a Black Hawk Down force sub?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-01-05 05:02am

Enforcer Talen wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Rob Wilson has written some absolutely scathing critiques of the astounding incompetence demonstrated in "Nor the Battle to the Strong". Seeing as how he's one of the few people around here to have actually seen real combat, that counts for quite a bit.
link?

I'm afraid it's in a forum which you can't see, so a link would be useless.

Patrick Ogaard · Post by **Patrick Ogaard** » 2003-01-05 08:55am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Patrick Ogaard wrote:There definitely are enlisted personnel in Starfleet. Check the TNG episode "The Drumhead." Starfleet Academy maintains a training program for enlisted personnel, and apparently those personnel are even trained on the grounds of the Academy, or at least have access to its park facilities.

"The Ship" says however enlisted engineers don't go to SFA.

True. Then again, Crewman First Class Simon Tarses, Medical Technician, attended the Academy's program for enlisted personnel, not the Academy itself. According to his tea-time comments to Picard, Tarses saw the cadets from a distance while hanging out in the Academy's park.

Considering even the most conservative estimates of Starfleet's total personnel strength, a single service academy co-located with an attached training facility for enlisted personnel can't possibly produce sufficient warm bodies to fill out the ranks. This is doubly true of areas that are supposed to be months of travel time from Earth.

It is remotely feasible (albeit incredibly impractical) to train all officer candidates at one central facility, but it is simply not feasible to do the same for enlisted personnel. Enlisted personnel may be relatively easier and faster to train than officers, but even a ridiculously officer-heavy force needs more enlisted personnel than officers, and there is normally a greater turnover in the enlisted population than in the officer population. Logically, there should be additional enlisted training facilities at selected major starbases throughout the Federation. Unfortunately, logic does not canon make ...

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2003-01-05 04:52pm

Mr Wong, could you quote Mr Wilson's critiques of "...Nor the Battle to the Strong"? Really, it sounds like it would be quite... illuminating.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-01-05 05:41pm

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Anyone want to figure what the Federation casualty ratio would be refighting a Black Hawk Down force sub?

Total They'd be exterminated and be lucky to take an equal number of Somilias with them.

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2003-01-05 06:44pm

I agree with Publius, could you copy and paste the quotes by Rob Wilson, a lot of people would really lie to see them.

Thanks.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2003-01-06 02:01am

FaxModem1 wrote:I agree with Publius, could you copy and paste the quotes by Rob Wilson, a lot of people would really lie to see them.

Thanks.

Don't know if this is what Lord Wong was thinking about (probably not) but here are some thoughts on NtBotS. This was posted on the off topic a while ago.

http://bbs.strardestroyer.net/viewtopic ... nor+strong