ICS Fact Page

[Lord Poe]

A dedicated, fully sourced page debunking the debunkers of the ICS needs to be made.

It should be part "idiot's guide" to where the numbers come from, and full smackdowns of asshattery by Darkstar and Sarli.

Mike, I think this would be an excellent page for your site, much like the "5 minute Star Wars vs Star Trek" one. If anyone else would like to put it together, I'd happily host it on mine.

[VT-16]

Lol, on Wookieepedia we now try to get sources and references for every article. Been working hard to get all sources from DK books and others in there. 8)

Maybe a subsection could be nice here as well.

[Surlethe]

Is there anywhere that most of the anti-ICS arguments are conveniently gathered, aside from Darkstar's site? I'd be interested in putting something together if time allows.

[Jim Raynor]

I don't know of any good, organized collections of anti-ICS arguments out there off the top of my head, but it shouldn't be that hard to compile a list of the common bitches:

Movie purist snobs, Trektards, and DarkStar
-Only the movies count! The ICS isn't canon.

-Saxton is obviously an agent of the Warsie conspiracy. He even acknowledges Wong and Poe in the book!

WEG fanwhores and Traviss asskissers
-Saxton snuck that shit in under the editors' noses!

-Saxton is such a wanker. There's no evidence for Star Dreadnaughts, Star Battlecruisers, and all his other big "Frankenstein" ships! Carracks rule! Dur, "'Standard' Imperial Classifications!" *fap, fap, fap*

-The ICS's numbers were retconned away by Odds! Being published at a later date means everything!

Both
-Saxton completely made up that crap about BDZ being the melting of a planet's crust. All WEG described it as was the destruction of the "civilized" world: cities, factories, mines, and fishery buildings (Note: apparently these dumbasses never looked up "fishery" in a dictionary ). You can do that with megaton-level firepower!

-200 gigatons is too high. We never see that kind of firepower in the movies.

-The ICS is a stupid children's book! (not so much an actual, if invalid criticism than annoying trash talk that gets used too much).

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

We ought to set up an IQ test before we engage with morons because debating with them is not only a bloody waste of time and brain cells and because really, what is the point of debating things with stupid people who aren't even worth debating with?

[nightmare]

We ought to set up an IQ test before we engage with morons because debating with them is not only a bloody waste of time and brain cells and because really, what is the point of debating things with stupid people who aren't even worth debating with?

That leaves ignorants and liars to debate with. Doesn't look like much of an improvement to me.

[FTeik]

We ought to set up an IQ test before we engage with morons because debating with them is not only a bloody waste of time and brain cells and because really, what is the point of debating things with stupid people who aren't even worth debating with?

Because honest and decent, but inexperienced fans and newbies will believe those twats, if nobody counters their bullshit.

[VT-16]

Carracks rule!

They did something like this on the FJ thread on TFN when Exile came out. Same for the CR90 corvette.

The CR90 CORVETTE.

Can that be counted as negatively-charged wank?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I'm still very impressed with Saxton's foresight and his sense of scale. The inclusion of the words "Grand Armies" in ROTS:ICS is simply.... fabulous!

[Teleros]

The inclusion of the words "Grand Armies" in ROTS:ICS is simply.... fabulous!

As in, 3 million per Grand Army ? Poor poor Traviss ...

[Mange]

I'm still very impressed with Saxton's foresight and his sense of scale. The inclusion of the words "Grand Armies" in ROTS:ICS is simply.... fabulous!

Ah, you mean the quote which Chee tried to BS away?

Also, in ITW: AotC it mentions the Grand Army of the Republic consisting of 'millions of divisions' of clones -

Can you be more specific as to where in the book "millions of divisions" comes from? My guess is that the figure is being misread. "The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluation." They're talking about millions of clones, not millions of divisions.

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=990

Yes, I'm sure that was misread. Chee is great, but that...

EDIT: It was the wrong quote, but the 'Grand Armies' quote has been ignored.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I know some here have respect for Chee, but since my joining the Star Wars Internet Community, I've seen nothing but him being a weasely dumbass.

[VT-16]

Can you be more specific as to where in the book "millions of divisions" comes from? My guess is that the figure is being misread.

He hasn't actually read it, he's just guessing what might be there when he does? Wow, nice to know LFL is on top of things.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I don't recall a "millions of divisions" in the book. I just remember the book saying the Republic had multiple "Grand Armies". If we take the three million figure as what a technical Grand Army is, then we can conclude that the Republic must have had thousands and thousands of Grand Armies at their disposal at any given time. Besides, when Chancellor Palpatine said that he would create a Grand Army of the Republic, his statement was probably more figurative rather than literal.

[VT-16]

The same info from AOTC:ICS was reprinted in SW:CL in late 2005:

The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment. Millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations.

The book came out after Insider 84, which started the 3 million only nonsense. So for "newer sources trump older ones", that's it. 8)

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Ah. I was speaking of the ROTS:ICS but the AOTC:ICS statement fits well either way.

[Isolder74]

anyway isn't 3 million units(as in divisions) something that makes much more sense anyway?

Think about it this way 200,000 units ready makes the debarking scene in the end of AofTC make much more sense. There are alot of Acc ships loading up and taking off in that scene each loading up thousands of troopers each.

[Ritterin Sophia]

anyway isn't 3 million units(as in divisions) something that makes much more sense anyway?

Think about it this way 200,000 units ready makes the debarking scene in the end of AofTC make much more sense. There are alot of Acc ships loading up and taking off in that scene each loading up thousands of troopers each.

From what I've been told a division is 10k-20k troops, thus equaling 2-4 billion as of AotC, and 30-60 billion at RotS, hell of a lot more sense than the 3 Million Troops but still way too damn few to be waging an intergalactic war against, what was it, quintillions (?) of Droids. I'd think a region or theater (= or >200,000) would be a better idea, gives us 40+ Billion as of AotC, and 600+billion as of RotS.

[VT-16]

My mistake, it was Inside the Worlds of AOTC.

[Lazarus]

I'd think a region or theater (= or >200,000) would be a better idea, gives us 40+ Billion as of AotC, and 600+billion as of RotS.

As far as a total troop number goes, 600+ billion does make more sense, however I'd be prepared to accept the 30-60 billion number, on account of I refuse to believe that clones are the ONLY military force the Republic and it's member world's have to offer. What about planetary defense forces? Fleets and armies from smaller empires/federations etc that are part of the OR? What about standard recruitment? Surely there are billions willing to fight for the Republic?

[VT-16]

There were soldiers on most civilized planets, but that doesn't take away from the fact that a ridiculously small military force gets all the credit and even gets a war named after themselves when they would not constitute more than a fraction of the total armed forces. It's like calling World War II "The SAS War" or "The SS Division Totenkopf War"

[Ritterin Sophia]

I'd think a region or theater (= or >200,000) would be a better idea, gives us 40+ Billion as of AotC, and 600+billion as of RotS.

As far as a total troop number goes, 600+ billion does make more sense, however I'd be prepared to accept the 30-60 billion number, on account of I refuse to believe that clones are the ONLY military force the Republic and it's member world's have to offer. What about planetary defense forces?

If Naboo and Alderaan are any indication, the defensive forces would be primarily used for policing acitons.

Fleets and armies from smaller empires/federations etc that are part of the OR?

Most of the other Republic Powers consisted of the smaller Capital Ships like the Correllion Corvette

What about standard recruitment? Surely there are billions willing to fight for the Republic?

Which stayed on their home planets in militias, I'm willing to grant Traviss militias that were equipped by and helped the Clones, but even with recruitment they still need hundreds of billions to trillions of cannon fodder.

[Balrog]

There were soldiers on most civilized planets, but that doesn't take away from the fact that a ridiculously small military force gets all the credit and even gets a war named after themselves when they would not constitute more than a fraction of the total armed forces. It's like calling World War II "The SAS War" or "The SS Division Totenkopf War"

I could understand if it was perhaps more of a cultural thing that they named them the "Clone Wars" then anything else; the first time a significant number of Republic troops had been genetically bred for war, rather then volunteered, would easily imprint itself in the minds of the populace as a very important event.

[Surlethe]

Here is a start I've done; any comments before I get cracking on the meat of the page?

[VT-16]

a significant number of Republic troops

That's the thing, it needs to be a significant number of these troops in order for most citizens of the galaxy to remember them and let them pass into the cultural conscience.