Advice would be greatly appreciated

[Justforfun000]

I honestly don't know which forum would be the appropriate place to put this. I also don't know why I waited this long to bring this forth as a topic for advice considering how it's been such a major stress on my mind. If there is anywhere on this network of websites where common sense can be found, it's certainly here.

I was just searching in vain for some kind of forum in Canada where legal professionals like lawyers, law students, etc. had put together some kind of blog where people could hash out legal issues. There are some in the States, but I didn't see anything come up in Canada. Unfortunately for me.

I'm dealing with a pending charge that is really unfair. My biggest gripe about the whole thing is that when it comes down to it, you are actually treated as guilty until proven innocent which is evident by my story.

I'll reproduce an email which sums up the great majority of what happened to start this.

I was up in Peterborough on Saturday night visiting a good friend that I was saying my goodbye's to before I left the city.I was out with her at a club that night, but she had to work in the morning so we left to go home at 1:00 or so. I dropped her off and decided to go back out and hit the club until the end as it was the only "gay" bar in Peterborough and it was fun. It's called the Only Cafe I , and they hold a gay-friendly Saturday dance party.

Well on the way back, as I'm trying to find it, I was putting my water bottle back in my cup holder and it doesn't quite fit in properly and starts to fall and spill. So while righting it, my left hand holding the wheel swerves the car a little, and the car coming towards me in the other lane honks at me and (as I find out later), calls the police to report someone driving erratically. It's not even like we clipped each other. It was slippery road conditions, and the car just slipped and slided a little but not enough to come close to a head on collision.

So after a few blocks a police car pulls me over, followed be another car which I find out after is the Seargent. They come and talk to me and say they got a report about me driving erratically, and ask where I've been and how much I drank, etc. Now the thing is I hadn't had a drink all night. I am very careful about having any alcohol when I have to drive. It's simply not worth it. I had hot chocolate at the bar early on, and then just water. So Im totally sober.

They check my license and registration, insurance, and come back and forth a few times. They are starting to relax and say ok, we were just concerned. They even give me proper directions on how to get back to the club. They return to their cruisers for one more thing and while I'm waiting I am starting to get a little tired. The two nights prior to this, I was up quite late with other friends in Toronto and didn't get much sleep, so it was starting to catch up to me. They had already been at least 25 minutes or so in detaining me, and as I was waiting I kind of dozed off a little.

Well they come back and are like "HEY, are you ok? You were out for a few minutes there. Are you sure you haven't been doing anything? Have you taken any kind of drugs or something? We can test you and find out if you have been taking anything like Cocaine or Ecstacy" I had to literally bite my tongue because I almost said "Oh right, those drugs would be perfect for helping me fall asleep officers." Keep in mind Peterborough is community policing, it's not the Ontario Provincial Police or the RCMP.

So they start changing their tune and ask if I mind blowing the breathalizer. I said sure. I'm fine. I'm just tired and it's catching up to me. Since they have been so long and it's been so late, I just want to go home anyway. So I blow their breathalizer and they are like "Sure enough, you have no alcohol in your system". Afterwards when I thought about I realized something too. They had me blowing so long, really hard and after I was finished he almost sounded disgusted and said "you have a really good set of lungs on you". I realized later why he was so mad. Our laws are such that even IF you blow under the legal limit, you can still be charged as impaired (AND have it justified in court which is where this will matter eventually), if you are exhibiting signs they feel are consistent with it. So they were trying to get even the smalled microliter of alcohol to show. Fucking bastards! They dick around a while longer and then tell me they are still going to arrest me on the suspicion of being impaired on drugs and not able to operate a motor vehicle!

So they get my car towed and take me to the station where they have me do a few "sobriety" tests which in general I do fine, albeit less than normal considering my tired state. However I have no idea how they recorded me as doing on the tests. I suspect they will cover their asses and claim I showed impairment. From speaking to a lawyer after, I didn't have to submit to those tests either. Of course they don't tell you that. Don't ever trust the police. They'll do whatever they can to cover their ass. I do a piss test and everything and they tell me they will try to reach the girl I'm staying with so they can drop me to her.

They come back later and say well we couldn't reach her, but bad news anyway. Since you have now moved out of province, (I STUPIDLY told them this, but it was to explain why I was so tired from the couple of nights before saying goodbye to everyone. Good lesson again. NEVER volunteer unecessary information with the police), you are considered a "flight risk" and you will have to get someone to come in and become your surity, arrange bail and get you released. Also for the record, I have absolutely NO CRIMINAL RECORD and I'm a 37 year old male. Apparently I may as well have said I was moving to Afghanistan instead of somewhere else in the same fucking country!

So I'm forced to stay the night, the girl that is my friend tries to help but they won't accept her as a surity. They of course want someone "respectable", as in older, with money, prestige, etc.

So I send out the message through Brendon to contact my friend David who I'm staying with or my other friend Lloyd Churchill.

Through video court it's relayed that my friend isn't acceptable as a surity and now I'll have to be remanded to the Lindsay JAIL until Monday where I'll appear and if I'm lucky, have a surity to bail me. All MY problem of course.

So they send me off to Prison Sunday night. This is not just a local micker mouse jail either. It's a maximum security prison. The only really kind thing they did was to wait until the last hour of public mingling that I had to endure before I could retreat to a cell with only one other person. We had bunk beds. I've never been to jail. It's not a comfortable place for someone who has no criminal inclinations whatsoever.

To fast forward, my friend Lloyd became my surity on Monday, posted $1000 no-deposit bond ensuring I'll appear for all my court cases AND paid the $1000 actual deposit required by me as cash to ensure the same as well.

Can you fucking imagine? Our system is a goddamn travesty. I'm treated as guilty until proven innocent! My towing ($150 for the actual tow), and $50 each day in the pound is also higher than normal BECAUSE it's an impaired driving charge so you're automatically convicted as far as their charge is concerned too. Isn't that unbelievable?

You'd be completely fucked without help. Once Lloyd paid my bail, they keep your belongings up at the jail because you might be sent back. They don't send them along in case your free, so he had to drive me up the 45 minutes to Lindsay to get my possessions, car keys, wallet with credit cards and money in order to go back to the city to get my CAR.

So now I have to fight the charge and that's where it stands. I have to sign in every monday here in Halifax and when in Toronto. I can only drive to and from work or court appearances unless in the company of my surity.

So that's why I didn't show. As you can see I didn't have a whole lot of choice in the matter. My uncle who is an excellent criminal lawyer in the city of Toronto talked with me later and said the Peterborough police are cocksuckers because they are a community police force, and he's not surprised they were this heavy handed. He says it looks like a very weak case and he'll get the disclosure documents on April 10th and we'll see what "evidence" they have. I hope I can sue the bastards!

This was the email to my boss in Toronto. I missed my last singing performance since they sent me to the jail.

I have just retained a lawyer to go pick up the disclosure on April 10th (assuming it'll be ready. It's possible it might not be and I'll have to pay AGAIN to send someone in my stead).

Get this. Even if they come forth and drop the charge admitting no evidence. As in my urinalysis is clear, they have absolute shit proof that I was impaired in any way, I STILL only get the good news that I won't lose my license or have a criminal charge. Restitution? HAH. Doesn't happen. You don't get back ANYTHING in the way of inconvenience or cost this whole thing cost you.

I love my country, and there isn't too much I'll really bash it about compared to other shitholes, but this is our justice system at work? Does anyone out there really think this is a fair system?

Consequently if anyone knows of a forum along the lines I was looking for, please point me in the right direction. I'd love to hash it out with other people in the field.

[Aaron]

Fuck what a mess. I can't say I'm surprised, similar things have happened to friends of mine in various towns. Pembroke in particular is infamous for nailing military guys with minor charges and keeping them overnight. I wouldn't put to much stock in internet forums for hashing over cases. It'll probably turn into a bitch fest with little accomplished.

Good luck and I hope you have a good lawyer.

[Aaron]

My advice would be to ask around for a good criminal lawyer, in my experiance the lawyer hotline in the yellow pages is hit or miss at best.

[Justforfun000]

Good luck and I hope you have a good lawyer.

Thanks Cpl. The one lucky thing is my uncle is a very good criminal lawyer in Toronto and he told me to send him the disclosure when I get it. He can at least give me some good advice.

You know, it's frustrating because I'm all for erring on the side of caution especially when it comes to driving infractions, but they were talking to me for almost a half hour. Wouldn't you think any signs of impairment would have been more then obvious during those conversations? Christ, they were even giving me directions how to get back to the bar at one point.

My uncle said it sounded more like a fishing expedition and because the Seargent was there he probably took advantage of the situation to use as a 'training' exercise or something. They didn't realize the ramifications I would suffer because of my moving out of the province. I'm quite sure I detected a somewhat contrite behaviour from them when they realized I had to be sent to jail and go through the surity process.

It's just really sad that monetarily especially I get completely screwed. $250 to get the car out. $1000 on "loan" until the case is over, my Sunday night wage of $120 plus tips which would have been VERY significant as it was my last night and I had a shitload of people out to see me off, the cost of the lawyer to appear for me on April 10th which is $165, etc etc,

Again. All my problem. Even if I'm completely exonerated, I don't automatically get any money back. I would have to bring forth a suit to SUE. It's truly hard to believe that could be considered 'justice'.

[Aaron]

Was it a small town police force? Or a force other than the OPP or RCMP?

[Justforfun000]

Was it a small town police force? Or a force other than the OPP or RCMP?

Yes. Apparently Peterborough is "community policing". I don't really understand what that means. I'm not really up on the law divisions. I don't normally get into trouble.

My uncle said something about them being not real policeman, or having too much time on their hands...I can't remember exactly what he was getting at, but they are definitely not RCMP or OPP. Not that I knew this at the time.

Funny aside too, he told me I did not have to give the breathalyzer unless they demanded it,not "asked". However I am glad I did. It proved I was 100% sober. But he also said I didn't have to do their sobriety tests or urine sample either. But what's disgusting is they don't even TELL you this. They simply inform you what you are going to do so they make it sound like a command. As far as I'm concerned, that should be an automatic disqualifying circumstance. That's abuse of their knowledge over your ignorance. In this specific case it really doesn't matter and indeed it will undoubtedly HELP me as I will show clean, but it's the principle of the thing.

I don't think I'll ever forget the essence of my uncle's quote to me which was something like: "Kendall, you don't get brownie points by being cooperative with the police. You get them only by being honest on the stand. As soon as they ask if you want to speak to a lawyer you say YES."

Words from the wise.

[Aaron]

As soon as they ask if you want to speak to a lawyer you say YES."

Words from the wise.

Yes I learned that lesson with the military police. As for the OPP/not OPP: every problem I've ever had with the cops it's been with a force that's been either a small town force, like the Pembroke Police or another force like the Kingston Police. I've never had a problem with the OPP or the RCMP. They've always been above board and professional all the way.

[General Zod]

Was it a small town police force? Or a force other than the OPP or RCMP?

Yes. Apparently Peterborough is "community policing". I don't really understand what that means. I'm not really up on the law divisions. I don't normally get into trouble.

My uncle said something about them being not real policeman, or having too much time on their hands...I can't remember exactly what he was getting at, but they are definitely not RCMP or OPP. Not that I knew this at the time.

Funny aside too, he told me I did not have to give the breathalyzer unless they demanded it,not "asked". However I am glad I did. It proved I was 100% sober. But he also said I didn't have to do their sobriety tests or urine sample either. But what's disgusting is they don't even TELL you this. They simply inform you what you are going to do so they make it sound like a command. As far as I'm concerned, that should be an automatic disqualifying circumstance. That's abuse of their knowledge over your ignorance. In this specific case it really doesn't matter and indeed it will undoubtedly HELP me as I will show clean, but it's the principle of the thing.

I don't think I'll ever forget the essence of my uncle's quote to me which was something like: "Kendall, you don't get brownie points by being cooperative with the police. You get them only by being honest on the stand. As soon as they ask if you want to speak to a lawyer you say YES."

Words from the wise.

Unfortunately, the police are only there to do one thing: Make sure their charges will stick. They will not go easy on you if they consider you a suspect. As it is ignorance of the laws usually won't work as a defense, so I'd recommend avoiding that tactic. Your best bet would be to do what you could to show that the police had no justification for an arrest. Naturally you should get a good lawyer, but that's about the most I can offer for advice.

[Darth Wong]

You know, I hate to break up this little sympathy party, but you were an impaired driver. You dozed off while they were checking the paperwork, for fuck's sake. That's not just exhibiting the signs of impairment; that is impairment. If you're that tired, you shouldn't be driving.

You even admitted in your first post that your performance on the sobriety test might have been less than normal because you were so tired. Do you honestly not realize that if your performance on a sobriety test might have been impaired, then your driving would have also been impaired? Do you believe that alcohol is the only conceivable form of impairment?

[Justforfun000]

You know, I hate to break up this little sympathy party, but you were an impaired driver. You dozed off while they were checking the paperwork, for fuck's sake. That's not just exhibiting the signs of impairment; that is impairment. If you're that tired, you shouldn't be driving.

That's fair enough and I actually was potentially expecting this to be brought up as a point, but that only applies as to where they themselves influenced me to be. In all honestly, I was fine until their interrogation and back and forth conversations dragged on waiting for them to make up their mind what to do with me. You have to understand that simply sitting in a very quiet car on a very dark street while they are off doing their thing for a half hour is much more conducive to you feeling sleepy. When they returned to me, I readily admitted that I was now feeling more tired and had every intention of just going directly back to where I was staying. It was the inactivity that was excerbating the problem.

At the time they actually pulled me over, I was wide awake and in complete control of my faculties, and there was nothing artificially interfering with my senses.

The realistic portion of this scenario is that if they had simply let me go home, I would have had no problem becoming fully alert to drive back home. The problem was them having me sit around bored and inactive.

[Justforfun000]

Oh and I forgot to add to the story Mike. Those sobriety tests were done MUCH later. They actually had me up and about in the station until about 4:00 in the morning when they were having me walk a straight line, stand with one foot in the air, etc. It was just after 1:00 when they pulled me over. This got dragged on ridiculously. Hell they even came and "woke" me up ( I wasn't able to sleep), at about 5:30 to do fingerprinting. I have no idea why that specific time had to be done. They certainly didn't seem busy with anyone else throughout the night.

Ah well. Done is done.

[Justforfun000]

And you know I just have to say for the record, that again I do really appreciate the straight talk by guys like Mike. There's no automatic "poor you" bullshit, or sticking up for you because they might like you. It's telling it like it is from their point of view and I really value that set of opinions from people here. We may not always agree, but at least honesty is a relative given on this board.
It's humbling, but that's what forces you to face reality as honestly as you can.

[Darth Wong]

You know, I hate to break up this little sympathy party, but you were an impaired driver. You dozed off while they were checking the paperwork, for fuck's sake. That's not just exhibiting the signs of impairment; that is impairment. If you're that tired, you shouldn't be driving.

That's fair enough and I actually was potentially expecting this to be brought up as a point, but that only applies as to where they themselves influenced me to be. In all honestly, I was fine until their interrogation and back and forth conversations dragged on waiting for them to make up their mind what to do with me. You have to understand that simply sitting in a very quiet car on a very dark street while they are off doing their thing for a half hour is much more conducive to you feeling sleepy. When they returned to me, I readily admitted that I was now feeling more tired and had every intention of just going directly back to where I was staying. It was the inactivity that was excerbating the problem.

At the time they actually pulled me over, I was wide awake and in complete control of my faculties, and there was nothing artificially interfering with my senses.

Not being able to crawl into your head at that time, I can't say anything definitive about your level of awareness. I would only say that people usually think they're less impaired than they are, and that I've had the experience of sitting in a car waiting for a cop for quite a while (as a witness to an accident, I once waited more than an hour), and I certainly didn't doze off. If anything, just knowing that I was dealing with the cops made me more alert. I suspect you were more tired than you realize.

The realistic portion of this scenario is that if they had simply let me go home, I would have had no problem becoming fully alert to drive back home. The problem was them having me sit around bored and inactive.

Think about it from the perspective of a police officer, one of whose sworn duties is to protect the public safety. You get a report about a guy driving erratically (which was true). You pull him over and he seems OK, but then he dozes off while you're checking paperwork, so you get suspicious. So you haul him back to the station to make sure he's not either on something or just so tired that he shouldn't be driving. Does any of this not make sense?

I know it's easy for people to accuse cops of being abusive of their power, and it certainly does happen, but I honestly can't see anything wrong with their actions in this case. And I dunno about you, but if I'm possibly in trouble with a cop, I'll be hyper-alert. Falling asleep is not too likely. In any case, even if you're found not guilty, you did a lot of things to make yourself look guilty. At the least, you should try to take this as a lesson for future reference.

[Justforfun000]

I know it's easy for people to accuse cops of being abusive of their power, and it certainly does happen, but I honestly can't see anything wrong with their actions in this case. And I dunno about you, but if I'm possibly in trouble with a cop, I'll be hyper-alert. Falling asleep is not too likely. In any case, even if you're found not guilty, you did a lot of things to make yourself look guilty. At the least, you should try to take this as a lesson for future reference.

I actually don't overly fault the police themselves so much as the system that forced me to be sent to jail and arrange a surity. Plus the inflated towing charge that is automatically maxed because of the charge itself. With no criminal record, there really isn't much reason for them to think of me as a "flight risk". Of COURSE I'm going to return and defend myself. Do they honestly think I'm going to allow this to just happen in my absence and get my license revoked? That's just not sensible on their part really, and being a law abiding citizen you would think I'd be given the benefit of the doubt instantly in this regard. It's not like I'd be "immune" in Nova Scotia.

Unfortunately it was just a situation of fatigue that did catch up to me and as you do point out, it IS just as valid a reason for impairment from a practical point of view even though there isn't a specific law against it. I guess all I'm trying to say is there could be a better system to deal with this circumstance. It was incredibly heavy handed. It ended with me spending two days in custody,spending a great deal of money and losing a night of work, and now I'm under a driving restriction that only allows me to drive to and from work and court appearances until this is resolved. Plus I have to sign in to the police station every monday.

I just think our system could be a little more appropriate in the handling of this kind of circumstance. I did indeed prove to them alcohol was not a factor, so they really did not have any hard reason to suspect any other induced impairment. If so, they should have easily detected it when talking to me as they did numerous times.

But in any event it's like you said. A lesson learned regardless. It's a very important thing to remember about driving. It is a very serious privilege, NOT a right, and you give up a lot of your individual rights that keep police from being intrusive towards you if you are on foot or in your own home.

If anything, I'd like to hope this thread might caution somebody about driving when you may be too fatigued. It should be considered as serious as alcohol impairment. I just did a search and found this report on fatigue:

Fatigue can be caused by too few hours of sleep; interrupted or
fragmented sleep or chronic sleep debt (lost hours of sleep that accumulate
over time). Other factors contributing to driver fatigue include the amount of
time spent on the road, time of day, undiagnosed sleep disorders and the use
of medications or alcohol.
Tell-tale signs that you may be too tired to drive include loss of
concentration, drowsiness, yawning, slow reactions, sore or tired eyes,
boredom, feeling irritable and restless, missing road signs, difficulty in
staying in the right lane, and nodding off. Shift workers and teenagers are
especially susceptible. Drivers experiencing these symptoms are encouraged to
pull safely over to the side of the road and stop for a nap.
Yakabuski admits that there is no simple solution to the problem of
driver fatigue, but stresses the benefits of education and urges Canadians to
visit the new website. He points out that someone who has not slept for 18
hours is as impaired as someone with a .05 blood alcohol level (for which, in
most provinces, police can take away your driver's license for 12 to 24
hours). Police cannot lay charges for fatigue impairment, but that is no
reason to put your safety at risk, he adds.

Now in my own case, I did have hours of sleep the two previous nights, but they were each less then 7 hours. I also maintain I would have been fine while actively driving and it would have taken me 5 minutes back to the persons house I was staying at, but in any event that's not what happened. They made the decision to throw the book at me. They didn't even "finish" with me until almost 4:00 and one of the last things they had me do was those "sobriety" tests. You can imagine how much more tired I was at that time. My uncle said they would have done that on purpose to strengthen their case, and in any event, I didn't have to do them.

Like I said before, lesson learned. I hope others here will take a lesson from my experience and be careful of fatigue and driving.