An extemely annoying Jedi related brainbug

[Sarevok]

At spacebattles.com and some Star Wars video games forums I post at there is a very common brainbug about jedi telekinesis. Everyone talks about force push, pull and choke being totaly different powers. Infact some of them were saying retarded things like Jedi can not force choke., most jedi / sith can not force crush even a tin can because it is a seperate power in KOTOR 2 or force powers are useless against robots or the undead because they can not be choked. Apparently they deny multi ton telekinetic force can simply tear most things apart like tissue paper. The common misconeption is Jedi powers in movies are same as video games like Jedi Knight or KOTOR. Jedi learn push, pull and choking seperately and these are the only moves they can do. Bringing up force choking in a vs thread is particularly annoying.

Force choking is what Vader liked to do to officers who pissed him. Why the hell must a Jedi in combat mode slowly choke someone when they can simply use telekinesis to swiftly snap the neck, crush the skull like a pepsi can or even tear a person from limb to limb. I am angry at game makers too. Next time someone makes a Jedi Knight game I wish they replace push, pull and choke combo with the true telekinesis system seen in Psy-Ops. Using tk powers in that game was awesome. Being able to manipulate enemies and object ala Jean Grey from X-Men would be a lot more fun than the system in Jedi Academy.

End rant.

[Ritterin Sophia]

At spacebattles.com and some Star Wars video games forums I post at there is a very common brainbug about jedi telekinesis. Everyone talks about force push, pull and choke being totaly different powers. Infact some of them were saying retarded things like Jedi can not force choke., most jedi / sith can not force crush even a tin can because it is a seperate power in KOTOR 2 or force powers are useless against robots or the undead because they can not be choked.

This is false, using the game mechanics from the SWRPG (Which KotOR is based off of), Mace Windu can clearly be seen using Force Crush (I call it Force Crush, Vader simply uses a slower version as torture) on SBD's on Dantooine and against General Grievous on Coruscant (When Palpatine was kidnapped) in the Clone Wars miniseries, this is why Grievous has the hacking cough (This is even stated in Jedi Counseling, the Errata page [Sarli doesn't make errors in many areas, I'll give him that, it's just that when he does, he fucks up severely, however, this isn't the case]).

Apparently they deny multi ton telekinetic force can simply tear most things apart like tissue paper. The common misconeption is Jedi powers in movies are same as video games like Jedi Knight or KOTOR. Jedi learn push, pull and choking seperately and these are the only moves they can do. Bringing up force choking in a vs thread is particularly annoying.

Again, even in game mechanics it's explained as simply another application of telekinesis, these powers are so simple that even a Padawan can do them, these powers are bare basics. Also, it's not that Jedi can't use Force Choke/Crush, it's that it's heavily frowned upon, Vader wasn't the first to come up with the idea to use it as torture, he's just the one who likes to use it the most.

Force choking is what Vader liked to do to officers who pissed him. Why the hell must a Jedi in combat mode slowly choke someone when they can simply use telekinesis to swiftly snap the neck, crush the skull like a pepsi can or even tear a person from limb to limb.

You forget, many on SB still don't view the ICS as canon and those that do accept it, think the numbers are still severely off.

I am angry at game makers too. Next time someone makes a Jedi Knight game I wish they replace push, pull and choke combo with the true telekinesis system seen in Psy-Ops. Using tk powers in that game was awesome. Being able to manipulate enemies and object ala Jean Grey from X-Men would be a lot more fun than the system in Jedi Academy.

End rant.

It seems you may get your wish with The Force Unleashed, it appears to have a pretty dynamic Force System (Mixing and matching simple telekinesis with Lighting and Force Choke [You're Vader's Apprentice, there will be choking] and Crush) and the SWRPG is being reworked to where Force Users simply have to invest in ONE extra skill rather than dozens at the same time, Use Force.

[PainRack]

At spacebattles.com and some Star Wars video games forums I post at there is a very common brainbug about jedi telekinesis. Everyone talks about force push, pull and choke being totaly different powers. Infact some of them were saying retarded things like Jedi can not force choke., most jedi / sith can not force crush even a tin can because it is a seperate power in KOTOR 2 or force powers are useless against robots or the undead because they can not be choked. Apparently they deny multi ton telekinetic force can simply tear most things apart like tissue paper. The common misconeption is Jedi powers in movies are same as video games like Jedi Knight or KOTOR. Jedi learn push, pull and choking seperately and these are the only moves they can do. Bringing up force choking in a vs thread is particularly annoying.

Didn't the TPM game give a specific force push that destroy droids? Not to mention KOTOR has explicit force powers for that too.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

IIRC, Luke Skywalker force choked the Gamorrean guards in Jabba's palace.

[Sarevok]

This is false, using the game mechanics from the SWRPG (Which KotOR is based off of), Mace Windu can clearly be seen using Force Crush (I call it Force Crush, Vader simply uses a slower version as torture) on SBD's on Dantooine and against General Grievous on Coruscant (When Palpatine was kidnapped) in the Clone Wars miniseries, this is why Grievous has the hacking cough (This is even stated in Jedi Counseling, the Errata page [Sarli doesn't make errors in many areas, I'll give him that, it's just that when he does, he fucks up severely, however, this isn't the case]).

In both KOTOR games my character has force push implying they have telekinesis. They also use lightning indicating they have no aversion to the darkside. But they cant use choke without learning it seperately at first. That is the annoying thing. If a character already got telekinesis and is a darksider he should be allowed to hurt things with telekinesis without learning it seperately. Learning may improve damage but all telekinesis users should have a basic force crush move.

Again, even in game mechanics it's explained as simply another application of telekinesis, these powers are so simple that even a Padawan can do them, these powers are bare basics. Also, it's not that Jedi can't use Force Choke/Crush, it's that it's heavily frowned upon, Vader wasn't the first to come up with the idea to use it as torture, he's just the one who likes to use it the most.

I guess CRPGs are less flexible than their pen and paper counterpart. How does force attacks work in D20 or D6 ? Can you move objects around as you wish and if a darksider damage it without learning a whole bunch of seperate powers ?

It seems you may get your wish with The Force Unleashed, it appears to have a pretty dynamic Force System (Mixing and matching simple telekinesis with Lighting and Force Choke [You're Vader's Apprentice, there will be choking] and Crush) and the SWRPG is being reworked to where Force Users simply have to invest in ONE extra skill rather than dozens at the same time, Use Force.

Yep I am looking forward to it. The plot at the moment does not sound too good. But neither did Republic Commando and yet it's one of my favorite games now. I am withholding judgement till the game comes out.

IIRC, Luke Skywalker force choked the Gamorrean guards in Jabba's palace.

Well he was knocking them unconciousss. Since he does not display the nifty stun powers you see in KOTOR choking someone untill they pass out is the best he could do.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

Again, even in game mechanics it's explained as simply another application of telekinesis, these powers are so simple that even a Padawan can do them, these powers are bare basics. Also, it's not that Jedi can't use Force Choke/Crush, it's that it's heavily frowned upon, Vader wasn't the first to come up with the idea to use it as torture, he's just the one who likes to use it the most.

I guess CRPGs are less flexible than their pen and paper counterpart. How does force attacks work in D20 or D6 ? Can you move objects around as you wish and if a darksider damage it without learning a whole bunch of seperate powers ?

In the SW RPG D20 rules, almost all Force Powers, with a few exceptions, can be used without having training in them, but Choke and Push are still technically different powers in the Star Wars RPG. Force powers in that are split into three sections, Alter (Force Powers such as "Move Object" "Force Grip" "Force Lightning" "Force Strike" etc.), Control (Force Powers that physically enhance your body) and Sense (Essentially Mental force abilities, Telepathy and the like). If you have training in Alter, you can use all Alter powers, and can specifically train to improve your effectiveness with seperate powers. Skills in "Move Object" don't improve rolls for "Force Grip", but yeah... if you have the ability to Telekenetically manipulate objects, you can Force Choke someone if you choose, in the Pen and Paper game.

People who seriously believe that Force Powers are segregated like in the Computer Games are idiotic. A trained Jedi can use telekinetic abilities to choke people if they so wish. Still, I liked Jedi Academy. Force Grip was handy for picking people up and throwing them off bridges. Hehe. "You draw a lightsaber on me? Hah, I pick you up and drop you off the bridge into molten lava, biatch."

[Ritterin Sophia]

In both KOTOR games my character has force push implying they have telekinesis. They also use lightning indicating they have no aversion to the darkside. But they cant use choke without learning it seperately at first. That is the annoying thing. If a character already got telekinesis and is a darksider he should be allowed to hurt things with telekinesis without learning it seperately. Learning may improve damage but all telekinesis users should have a basic force crush move.

That's basically the P&P RPG, you know the basics of doing it, but you can increase the power by training, for example, I've heard Anakin was able to bring down a whole building with his abilities.

I guess CRPGs are less flexible than their pen and paper counterpart. How does force attacks work in D20 or D6 ? Can you move objects around as you wish and if a darksider damage it without learning a whole bunch of seperate powers ?

In D20, it's the same as using a skill D20+ Relevant Stat (Normally Wisdom)+ Skill Points invested. In D6, you get to roll a number of dice depending upon the skill points invested, I don't know exactly how, as I've never played it myself, I just remember that much. Yes, you can pick up anything you want, and with the errata, you can even pick up some of the larger Troop Transports, like the TF Landers, if you have enough skill points invested into Move Object (Like I said, in Saga Edition, all the force skills will be combined into a single skill; one of the problems with the current edition is that some of the iconic force using characters don't get enough skill points to do all the things we see in the movies; but it will still be compatable with most of the current edition [which is discontinued]). Adding on to what's been already said, a Human Jedi Guardian/Counselor get's a starter Force Feat (Alter, Control, and Sense), and a bonus for being human, at level three you get another bonus Force Feat, thus you can be completely trained by level 3, however by Level 5 you have all the bonus feats for free, and at level 7 you graduate into Knighthood.

Yep I am looking forward to it. The plot at the moment does not sound too good. But neither did Republic Commando and yet it's one of my favorite games now. I am withholding judgement till the game comes out.

Well, if I remember correctly, Vader has had one other apprentice, named Lumiya, who eventually trains Jacen. Being a Dark Jedi and becoming a Sith are different, but not so much that you can't secretly train a Dark Jedi under the nose of the Emperor, for example Lord Hethrir was trained as a Procurator of Justice by Lord Vader, a number of the Prophets were technically Sith, as they followed the teachings of Darth Millenial (A Sith who fought alongside Darth Bane at the Battle of Ruusan against Lord Hoths Army of the Light) for two-thousand years, and Azrakel was trained by High Prophet Kadann to usurp Palpatine, and at least one Imperial Guard Sovereign Protector became a Sith (He was the one who sabotaged Palpies Cloning Vats on Byss), so I don't see why everyone is so up in arms about Vader having a secret apprentice.

[Old Plympto]

That's a brainbug I sensed as well when I read the d20 books. In d6, it's just "telekinesis", you push, pull, throw, hold and crush people or their trachea or balls with it. No Force Push, or Force Pull, or Force Grip, or Force Throw Shit, or Force Tickle as seperate abilities.

[Vympel]

At spacebattles.com and some Star Wars video games forums I post at there is a very common brainbug about jedi telekinesis. Everyone talks about force push, pull and choke being totaly different powers. Infact some of them were saying retarded things like Jedi can not force choke., most jedi / sith can not force crush even a tin can because it is a seperate power in KOTOR 2 or force powers are useless against robots or the undead because they can not be choked. Apparently they deny multi ton telekinetic force can simply tear most things apart like tissue paper. The common misconeption is Jedi powers in movies are same as video games like Jedi Knight or KOTOR. Jedi learn push, pull and choking seperately and these are the only moves they can do. Bringing up force choking in a vs thread is particularly annoying.

Force choking is what Vader liked to do to officers who pissed him. Why the hell must a Jedi in combat mode slowly choke someone when they can simply use telekinesis to swiftly snap the neck, crush the skull like a pepsi can or even tear a person from limb to limb. I am angry at game makers too. Next time someone makes a Jedi Knight game I wish they replace push, pull and choke combo with the true telekinesis system seen in Psy-Ops. Using tk powers in that game was awesome. Being able to manipulate enemies and object ala Jean Grey from X-Men would be a lot more fun than the system in Jedi Academy.

End rant.

I've (ie. Leo1) dealt with this bullshit on SB.com multiple times, you've probably seen it. It's usually total hopeless idiots who propose it in the first place, so their arguments are quite easy to demolish. I think most reasonable people on SB.com understand that the delineation between force powers is an artificial game mechanics construct, and the only force power that can be assumed to require specific training in the films is force lightning. Force pull/push etc are all just force telekinesis and a Jedi can do whatever they like/imagine with them.

The more annoying brainbug is "Jedi cannot use more than one force power at once" or the even dumber "ok, they can do it, but can they do it .... IN COMBAT?" This is easily refuted with refernece to AotC and RotS- ie. Count Dooku doing that in both films (RotS being particularly impressive).

The next step in the moron argument is to then dress up their no-evidence opinions as fact: ie. "ok Count Dooku can but he's a really powerful Jedi and just because he can do it doesn't mean Obi-Wan/Anakin/Luke [and on and on] can". They have no actual evidence to support their little invention that only a really powerful Sith Lord can do this, they just need it to win the argument (ie. depending on the Jedi involved- ie. Anakin).

That's when it's great to pull out Clone Wars and shove that down their throats, though this is optional. I prefer to simply ask them to justify their "have to be really powerful" argument with facts- which they never have, because they're full of shit.

[Edward Yee]

From my understanding, the changes in Saga Edition (including combining the guardian and consular into one Jedi core class, and changing Force adept into a prestige class) are supposed to not only account for all three movies but also for the magnitude to which the Force has been used in the EU (i.e. KOTOR); in contrast, in the current edition, an official write-up of Darth Malak is stated to have "extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level." (Although I found it interesting that they didn't spoil all of KOTOR, I guess, by attributing unknown origins for DR despite no armor and his "enhanced Force powers" special quality.)

Hope that my post isn't too G&C.

[Sam Or I]

Its all the same force, just manipulated differently. Seriously if you had telekinesis of less than 2 pounds, you could kill some one with a thought.

[Connor MacLeod]

nearest as I can tell, it comes from a lack of understanding as to how the underlying mechanisms are described to work. They tend to think of them in game terms, like "its a separate power" regardless of hwo they work. In some cases this might have merit - manipulating fine objects for example (like circuitry, or molecules) would be far different than lifting objects. And there could be differences in focus (creating a very narrow "spear" of Force versus a broad wall or hammer/fist of Force).

On the other hand, some things like pushing and pulling are highly related, so would not automatically need to be treated as "separate" (you can think of a force shove or push as a wall of fore, or even just a very strong hand shoving, depending on the exact size or mechanism) For a force "choke', that could require a slightly different application (the "hand" type push could be applied easly, but so could a "band" of force wrappinga roudn the neck, a curving plane of force.)

Its kinda like the "Force speed" thing too. In soem cases it doesnt seem to be TK related, but there clearly are cases of TK.

[Cykeisme]

Putting aside a mountanous diatribe of game mechanics that no one can understand, basically the working principle version of Wizards' official SW d20 works is this: if something is done in the movies, then the rules have to be rewritten to make it possible in-game.

Anyway, back to discussion-specific points.
In d20, there's a Move Object skill that covers almost all telekinesis, including moving people around. The magnitude of your result (d20 roll + bonuses) determines how much mass you can move. Or rather, you have to get a certain minimum result in order to move an object of a certain mass.

Force Grip and Force Strike are considered separate skills because the act of using the Force to injure living tissue is supposed to be felt very intensely by the attacker. Thus, Jedi are unlikely to use such abilities. Using either on a living target edges you toward the dark side (game-wise, this causes you to accumulate "Dark Side Points").

However, recent rulings allow you to use Grip and Strike against droids, with no dark side leaning involved.


Using multiple powers simultaneously (like Lightning and Move Object) are indeed allowed, but this requires the character to have certain abilities (in-game "Feats").


For computer-game purposes, splitting them up makes sense, I suppose. As for the current d20 RPG, it works pretty well, actually.

[Ritterin Sophia]

You're off a bit Cykeism, only Force Grip was changed to be made usable on Droids, Force Strike has always allowed that, however, in the same Errata that made this change, Force Strike was changed to allow usage on living beings without incurring DSP's.

[Tychu]

This is false, using the game mechanics from the SWRPG (Which KotOR is based off of), Mace Windu can clearly be seen using Force Crush (I call it Force Crush, Vader simply uses a slower version as torture) on SBD's on Dantooine and against General Grievous on Coruscant (When Palpatine was kidnapped) in the Clone Wars miniseries, this is why Grievous has the hacking cough (This is even stated in Jedi Counseling, the Errata page [Sarli doesn't make errors in many areas, I'll give him that, it's just that when he does, he fucks up severely, however, this isn't the case]).

In both KOTOR games my character has force push implying they have telekinesis. They also use lightning indicating they have no aversion to the darkside. But they cant use choke without learning it seperately at first. That is the annoying thing. If a character already got telekinesis and is a darksider he should be allowed to hurt things with telekinesis without learning it seperately. Learning may improve damage but all telekinesis users should have a basic force crush move.

in my opinion Force Push and Pull are seperate than Choke/Crush. Mainly for the reason that while Push/Pull manipulates the area around a person or droid, Force Choke/Crush actually manipulates the living being. I think it would be easier to simply manipulate the Force/Nature than it is to Manipulate the Force/Nature which will then manipulate the living being

[Ghost Rider]

This is false, using the game mechanics from the SWRPG (Which KotOR is based off of), Mace Windu can clearly be seen using Force Crush (I call it Force Crush, Vader simply uses a slower version as torture) on SBD's on Dantooine and against General Grievous on Coruscant (When Palpatine was kidnapped) in the Clone Wars miniseries, this is why Grievous has the hacking cough (This is even stated in Jedi Counseling, the Errata page [Sarli doesn't make errors in many areas, I'll give him that, it's just that when he does, he fucks up severely, however, this isn't the case]).

In both KOTOR games my character has force push implying they have telekinesis. They also use lightning indicating they have no aversion to the darkside. But they cant use choke without learning it seperately at first. That is the annoying thing. If a character already got telekinesis and is a darksider he should be allowed to hurt things with telekinesis without learning it seperately. Learning may improve damage but all telekinesis users should have a basic force crush move.

in my opinion Force Push and Pull are seperate than Choke/Crush. Mainly for the reason that while Push/Pull manipulates the area around a person or droid, Force Choke/Crush actually manipulates the living being. I think it would be easier to simply manipulate the Force/Nature than it is to Manipulate the Force/Nature which will then manipulate the living being

So going to back up your opinion with something other then your ass?

[Plushie]

For some reason I always felt that sort of thinking came from anime, where characters seem to have special techniques which other characters can't pull off for some reason, even if they're functionally similar or even identical in mechanism.

I see it a lot with stuff like Achilles from Troy with the thing he did to the giant in the beginning, where people discuss it almost like it's a super special power and go, "Well, his jump-stab wouldn't work on so-and-so, so I can't see how Achilles could win", completely forgetting he's a competent swordsman BESIDES that.

[Stark]

This stems from the RPG need for separate 'spells'. Force use seems to simply be a group of skills - as Connor says, some tasks are different or difficult enough to require practice or perhaps dedicated training - but the idea that you can't Force Choke (ie, apply TK on a target's neck) when you can lift rocks (ie, apply TK to a rock) is stupid.

I have no problem with the idea that different training backgrounds could lead to different skillsets and skill focuses, of course.

[Master_Baerne]

some tasks are different or difficult enough to require practice or perhaps dedicated training - but the idea that you can't Force Choke (ie, apply TK on a target's neck) when you can lift rocks (ie, apply TK to a rock) is stupid.

Help me to understand. If I can TK rocks, I can TK individual people's necks, but not multiple people or complicated objects like mechanical locks or inticate traps or puzzles?

[Ritterin Sophia]

The SWRPG does allow for lifting multiple people and objects, however, intricate things like, manipulating a keyboard or a control panel requires a feat...

[SilverWingedSeraph]

The SWRPG does allow for lifting multiple people and objects, however, intricate things like, manipulating a keyboard or a control panel requires a feat...

Using weapons with TK also requires a feat, Kinetic Combat. When I was gamemaster in an SWRPG, I made an improved version of that feat that allowed you to control as many weapons equal to your intelligence modifier... one of the Jedi players took that feat and went around controlling six lightsabers at once with telekinesis. It was nasty.

[Ritterin Sophia]

The SWRPG does allow for lifting multiple people and objects, however, intricate things like, manipulating a keyboard or a control panel requires a feat...

Using weapons with TK also requires a feat, Kinetic Combat. When I was gamemaster in an SWRPG, I made an improved version of that feat that allowed you to control as many weapons equal to your intelligence modifier... one of the Jedi players took that feat and went around controlling six lightsabers at once with telekinesis. It was nasty.

I would have gone with Wisdom since that would be an application of the Split Force power, which relies of Wis Mod.

[Tychu]

In both KOTOR games my character has force push implying they have telekinesis. They also use lightning indicating they have no aversion to the darkside. But they cant use choke without learning it seperately at first. That is the annoying thing. If a character already got telekinesis and is a darksider he should be allowed to hurt things with telekinesis without learning it seperately. Learning may improve damage but all telekinesis users should have a basic force crush move.

in my opinion Force Push and Pull are seperate than Choke/Crush. Mainly for the reason that while Push/Pull manipulates the area around a person or droid, Force Choke/Crush actually manipulates the living being. I think it would be easier to simply manipulate the Force/Nature than it is to Manipulate the Force/Nature which will then manipulate the living being

So going to back up your opinion with something other then your ass?

well it was my personal opinion but i do have some evidence that you can either take it or leave it. I mean it could have been the whole 2 years later and he learned to do it better but:

In ESB Luke seems to struggle quite a bit in pulling his lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave

Now in RotJ Luke very and very easily chokes the hell out of the Gamorieans. and then later pulls the blaster from the Guard later very very easily

but like i stated before, i originally said it was my personal opinion, ive seen people state their IMHO before and thought that was alright.

[Stark]

Help me to understand. If I can TK rocks, I can TK individual people's necks, but not multiple people or complicated objects like mechanical locks or inticate traps or puzzles?

I'm suggesting that perhaps 'lift a rock' or 'pull lightsabre' is very easy (since it's a simple motion on a large simple object), but other things like throwing a particular switch on a board of many switches requires finer control, and opening a lock with your mind or disassembling a rifle with TK would be much more difficult, with many separate minor movements required. Like any skill I imagine the more a force-user practices tasks the easier they get, but breaking these tasks down by arbratry 'powers' is silly when simple 'difficulty' would work just as well.

[SilverWingedSeraph]

well it was my personal opinion but i do have some evidence that you can either take it or leave it. I mean it could have been the whole 2 years later and he learned to do it better but:

In ESB Luke seems to struggle quite a bit in pulling his lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave

Now in RotJ Luke very and very easily chokes the hell out of the Gamorieans. and then later pulls the blaster from the Guard later very very easily

but like i stated before, i originally said it was my personal opinion, ive seen people state their IMHO before and thought that was alright.

Opinions in a debate of this nature mean precisely dick. Facts are what matters. Luke was in a weakened state, in the Wampa cave. Note that when he finally pulled his lightsaber free, it didn't slowly float towards his hand, it zipped straight up into it. I can't remember for certain, but I'd wager it was stuck in the ice. There is absolutely no evidence that Force Push/Pull is any different from Force Grip/Choke/Crush/Whatfuckingever. They're two different applications of the same skill, Psycho-fucking-kinesis.

Also, Posting Rule #1. Surely it isn't hard to put a bit of extra effort in to use proper grammar and capitalisation. It would certainly make reading your posts less infuriating for us anally-retentive types.