The Complete Incredible Cross Sections released

[Mange]

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=295



"Ooohh... I hope Sarli can put an end to this!"

I'm not surprised to see that coming from Mr. O, but I'm surprised that there wasn't more negativity than it was.

[Lord Poe]

I'm not surprised to see that coming from Mr. O, but I'm surprised that there wasn't more negativity than it was.

Did I miss the memo? Has Darkstar been fully replaced as their Lord and Savior? Christ, if I wasn't so tired, this would call for a comic where Darkstar enters the room and asks Graham Kennedy and Timothy Jones to scoot over so he can have room on the bench.

How long will it take for Darkstar to realize that all of his criticisms against the AOTC:ICS are now null and void since he's begun accepting Chee's "two canons" rule?

[Mange]

I'm not surprised to see that coming from Mr. O, but I'm surprised that there wasn't more negativity than it was.

Did I miss the memo? Has Darkstar been fully replaced as their Lord and Savior? Christ, if I wasn't so tired, this would call for a comic where Darkstar enters the room and asks Graham Kennedy and Timothy Jones to scoot over so he can have room on the bench.

How long will it take for Darkstar to realize that all of his criticisms against the AOTC:ICS are now null and void since he's begun accepting Chee's "two canons" rule?

He's been rather quiet lately...

Anyway, I find it a bit disappointing that more new capital ships (the Mon Cals) and the DSII weren't included and that the stats weren't updated to conform to the standards of the AOTC:ICS. Still, since I haven't got all the ICS books, perhaps I'll pick it up anyway.

[Connor MacLeod]

I've been skimming this book some more.

Its not horrible in the same sense of the stuff people like Sarli or Traviss put out. Its not precisely good either, but it could have been alot worse.

The most interesting tidbit is that they seem to be upholding the "massless beam" interpretation for laser cannons and turbolasers. What's interesting is that they make a blatant distinction between laser/turbolasers and blaster cannons (or ion cannons.) The laser/TLs are "massless" beams, while the blaster cannons appear to be the "blaster gas" created bolt projectile whatever stuff.

Proton torpedoes seem to have gone with the "new" interpretation of the proton torpedo warhead releasing streams of protons (so basically its shooting a glorified particle beam at the target.) They repeat it more than a few times, so protorps DO appear to be "particle"/KE weapons, rather than conventional nuke or antimatter explosives.

Hyperwave has an interesting commentary: according to the source, pirate groups and the Rebels (possibly one other group, but I forget which) IIRC maintained their own private hyperwave networks. Something I suppose akin to the "shadowfeeds" or the mobile hyperwave emittors the Separatists supposedly had.

B-wings, while the "wings" (or rather the mounting sections where the wings meet the bottom most pod or the engine mount up towards the cockpit) aren't really super "thick", It also seems rather evident they intended the B-wing to be highly modular (they state it only a billion times or so.) Given that, its quite likely they mean to switch out or alter the pod mountings to fit in bigger (heavier) launchers for anti-ship work (possibly fewer or more limited torpedoes as well.) Or maybe the antiship launchers need bigger pods. To my knowledge we've never seen a profile of an anti-ship B-wing outside of a game, and those aren't admissible as evidence really.

Its also worth noting that in the original WEG stuff B-wings were designed to take on the 300 meter Nebulon-Bs and Corvettes in attack roles, the whole "attack ISD" thing AFAIK came along much later (supposedly Endor, where they supplemented capship firepower.) Later models of B-wings could add more torpedoes, but it added substantially to the mass of the ship (IIRC the EGV&V). Nothing near as absurd as the E-wing's loadout.

I also note they gave the B-wing FOUR targeting lasers rather than one. Ouch.

Regurgitation of the solar panel BS. Ugh. I wonder if maybe we can just assume they're tapping/absorbing "invisible" energy sources like Dooku's solar sailer was supposed to be doing instead.

While alot of the stuff on the surface seems to reiterate the WEG crap, I should note its not DIRECT WEG stuff. It seems that whoever wrote this was drawing from some VERY old sourcs... rather the old Star Wars Technical Journal (which I have). Its interesting to see some of this resruface (like the B-wing packing the firepower of a Corvette into its smaller frame.) Note as wlel they crammed in the 47 million km superlaser range as well (rather than the superlaser range from the New essential guide to Weapons and technology, which was far shorter...)

Most of the text seems virtually intact, aside from a few cosmetic alterations to "update" them continuity wise - the essential data is intact as far as I can tell (as has been mentioned.) there ARE differencese, but they didn't change any of the stuff we wanted kept in.

Edit: Oh yeah, I also noticed over on starfleetjedi how they were "crowing" that the fact that "ships with hyperdrive damage/malfunctions" get dropped out of hyperspace, and thus Curtis was "overriden" - except that wasn't really him alone, it came from alot of other source (BFC mentions that once an object is in hyperspace it stays there, as did the Daley Han Solo novels.) And the interpretation was kinda odd and how they were presenting it, since IIRC the other EU evidence, a ship's hyperdrive is equipped with emergency cutoffs to deliberately drop it out of hyperspace in the event of an emergency, not that it naturally emerges. Such as in the presence of a gravity well (or interdictor cruiser.)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The proton torp stuff is old. It was already mentioned in the very first ICS book that it was a proton emitting warhead.

[Connor MacLeod]

The proton torp stuff is old. It was already mentioned in the very first ICS book that it was a proton emitting warhead.

you mean the old X-wing entry?

[Vympel]

"Ooohh... I hope Sarli can put an end to this!"

Yes, I'm sure everyone will be convinced by that moron's writings: "well, you see, we can make the canon perfectly consistent [with my opinions] if we just say that there's a technobabble effect which selectively makes every number that I find too high to be 10,000 times higher than it is in reality! Because the figures don't apply to 'the universe'- just to the ship!"

If that inane bullshit gets committed to canon I'll swear off buying any EU, ever again, no matter how interesting it looks.

On another issue, though- don't these retards decry the EU anyway? So why do they follow what a new book says?

Oh, that's right, they all know they're completely full of shit and just jerking each other off with a position they know to be untenable, and these pussies only adopted the canon position they do so they don't have to deal with the ICS.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The proton torp stuff is old. It was already mentioned in the very first ICS book that it was a proton emitting warhead.

you mean the old X-wing entry?

Yeah, the old X-wing entry. It was mentioned there that it was a proton emitting warhead. Hell knows how destructive that can be unless it is incredibly intense.

[Connor MacLeod]

The proton torp stuff is old. It was already mentioned in the very first ICS book that it was a proton emitting warhead.

you mean the old X-wing entry?

Yeah, the old X-wing entry. It was mentioned there that it was a proton emitting warhead. Hell knows how destructive that can be unless it is incredibly intense.

No, that was a "focused nuclear warhead" in the OT:ICS entry. The "releasing a stream of protons" bit came from the NEGV&V and maybe the earlier WOTC stuff (I haven't bothered to check that last bit.) I figure its probably either an interpretation of the old WEG "proton scattering warhead" statements, or its meant to account for the odd (non-nuclear) effects protorps have. Or maybe its just designed to make them kinetic weapons.

[Ritterin Sophia]

It's probably WEG material, the WotC stuff doesn't go into much detail unless it's a sourcebook for that item, hell the Revised Core Rulebook doesn't even list what the base damage for any of the vehicle or starship weapons are, but I've yet to see Starships of the Galaxy, which offer rules for building custom starships, so it may have weapons descriptions.

[CmdrWilkens]

It's probably WEG material, the WotC stuff doesn't go into much detail unless it's a sourcebook for that item, hell the Revised Core Rulebook doesn't even list what the base damage for any of the vehicle or starship weapons are, but I've yet to see Starships of the Galaxy, which offer rules for building custom starships, so it may have weapons descriptions.

It has a few but not nearly as many as I was hoping for, I'm gonna try and retrieve it from my basement tomorrow now that my interest has been piqued.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Hopefully they'll fix that in The Saga Edition, which is supposed to have a whole slew of new material being made, I think it comes out at Celebration IV, and they've already got a Force Unleashed Campaign Sourcebook in the works, unfortunately we have to trust that lying piece of shit, Sarli.

[VT-16]

I'm willing to give Sarli a break, since the stats are game-mechanics anyway. And he continued the Executor retcon to get rid of the old 8 km notion once and for all.

[Ritterin Sophia]

A break? He banned me after he said 100 MT was enough to devastate the earth with or without nuclear winter, dismissed Saxton's numbers without any reason whatsoever other than 'They look too big!', and then someone vastly overestimated the effects of a 100 MT bomb, and I said bullshit. He get's a break from me when my account is unbanned.

[VT-16]

Someone should have told Soviet Russia of these findings before they detonated the Tsar Bomba

[Elfdart]

A break? He banned me after he said 100 MT was enough to devastate the earth with or without nuclear winter, dismissed Saxton's numbers without any reason whatsoever other than 'They look too big!', and then someone vastly overestimated the effects of a 100 MT bomb, and I said bullshit. He get's a break from me when my account is unbanned.

He also deleted posts, rambled on with some endless bullshit trying to "refute" Saxton's work, then locked the thread. He's Traviss without the balls.

[nightmare]

I'm willing to give Sarli a break, since the stats are game-mechanics anyway. And he continued the Executor retcon to get rid of the old 8 km notion once and for all.

He worked on the Viscount, so no, he didn't.

[VT-16]

He worked on the Viscount, so no, he didn't.

I just rationalize that as SW ships not being those supercarriers they're made out to be. :P

[Ritterin Sophia]

Someone should have told Soviet Russia of these findings before they detonated the Tsar Bomba

We brought that up... he then proceded to say it was off-topic when the topic was Fuel of an ISD, yield of Turbolasers, and his refusal of Saxtons numbers (which included the 100 MT Devastating the Earth thing). He's a dishonest asshole, whom like Traviss should be fired by LFL.

[Edward Yee]

Being unfamiliar with the situation re: Sarli, is he just a particularly adamant minimalist? Serious inquiry here due to my newness to the subject.

I'm currently reading Jedi Counseling 101, specifically his claim that the current SWd20's VP/WP are "a little too lethal" in the long run. (As his case for SWSE using HP, but with a damage threshold and condition track so you can't just tank.) In order to keep with the PSWness, I'm reading his conclusion about the new mechanic:

we've concluded that it produces an appropriately cinematic game experience. Characters can still be heroic -- chasing a squad of stormtroopers down a hallway, for example -- without being immune to serious injury or death, especially when facing a powerful villain in a climactic encounter.

Don't know how Star Wars that's supposed to be, considering the example he used...

P.S. Would it be off-topic if I asked someone more mathematically apt than me to check his math re: instakill odds?

[Ritterin Sophia]

P.S. Would it be off-topic if I asked someone more mathematically apt than me to check his math re: instakill odds?

I'm not about to go over his math, however, for those who wish to do so, your consitution equals your Wound Points and a blaster rifle is 3d8/19-20 giving you a 5% chance for a critical (which rather than doing x2 or x3 like in D&D are applied directly to WP). Personally I dislike the idea, Vitality Points represent how well you can turn a hit into a near miss (IE Han's hair getting scorched) and Wound Points represent direct hits, eventually you tire out from all the dodging or someone gets lucky and nails you.

[Steel]

P.S. Would it be off-topic if I asked someone more mathematically apt than me to check his math re: instakill odds?

I'm not about to go over his math, however, for those who wish to do so, your consitution equals your Wound Points and a blaster rifle is 3d8/19-20 giving you a 5% chance for a critical (which rather than doing x2 or x3 like in D&D are applied directly to WP). Personally I dislike the idea, Vitality Points represent how well you can turn a hit into a near miss (IE Han's hair getting scorched) and Wound Points represent direct hits, eventually you tire out from all the dodging or someone gets lucky and nails you.

Well 19-20 is a 10% chance of a critical. To work out the chance of an instakill, you need to know the probability of exceeding someones Con on a roll of 3d8. Luckily such a table can be found here.

http://www.ogmiosproject.org/articles/stattables.html

To work out the probability of an instakill from a weapon with a x% chance of critical and doing some ammount of damage for a given con you need to work out:

Probability of critical*probability of damage >=con

this gives

Code: Select all

Con	Chance to Roll Con or More
3	10%
4	9.9%
5	9.9%
6	9.8%
7	9.6%
8	9.3%
9	8.9%
10	8.3%
11	7.6%
12	6.8%
13	5.9%
14	5.0%
15	4.0%
16	3.1%
17	2.3%
18	1.6%
19	1.0%
20	0.6%

And the chance for an NPC to hit a PC is probably normally around 25% (?not sure of this, but probably close enough)

So for most characters, the chance to be instakilled by a hit is about 5-10%, and the chance to be instakilled by a shot would then be about 1-3%

Which is pretty low, but still likely to happen sooner or later depending how much you get shot at

[Ritterin Sophia]

Just a quick thing here, Critical Hits=Autohit. However, those numbers are without even factoring in Damage Reduction, the best light armour I can remember was around DR 4 and would thus reduce damage by 4 points.

On the 10% thing, Note to Self: No Math when tired.

[Steel]

Just a quick thing here, Critical Hits=Autohit. However, those numbers are without even factoring in Damage Reduction, the best light armour I can remember was around DR 4 and would thus reduce damage by 4 points.

On the 10% thing, Note to Self: No Math when tired.

Ah yes auto hit... whoops...

Code: Select all

Con    Chance to Roll Con or More 
3      10% 
4      9.9% 
5      9.9% 
6      9.8% 
7      9.6% 
8      9.3% 
9      8.9% 
10     8.3% 
11     7.6% 
12     6.8% 
13     5.9% 
14     5.0% 
15     4.0% 
16     3.1% 
17     2.3% 
18     1.6% 
19     1.0% 
20     0.6% 
21     0.4%
22     0.2%
23     0.08%
24     0.02%

Ok so to account for DR of n just add it to con, and we can see that its actually quite sensitive, going from con 16 to 20 represents a 5x decrease in the probability of being killed, and so a tough character in heavy armour has a practically negligible chance of being killed, and even fairly low constitutions have a reasonable chance of survival in light armour. And that said, i think there should be a chance of bein taken down outright, rather than having a guaranteed 7 rounds where the enemy cant kill you, making ambushes slightly useless...

[LaserRifleofDoom]

Just a quick thing here, Critical Hits=Autohit. However, those numbers are without even factoring in Damage Reduction, the best light armour I can remember was around DR 4 and would thus reduce damage by 4 points.

On the 10% thing, Note to Self: No Math when tired.

Are you sure? Because only natural 20s autohit in D&D. This is important if there are big crit ranges.