Improving the MMO

GEC: Discuss gaming, computers and electronics and venture into the bizarre world of STGODs.

Moderator: Thanas

User avatar
Ace Pace
Hardware Lover
Posts: 8456
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:04am
Location: Wasting time instead of money
Contact:

Improving the MMO

Post by Ace Pace »

Let's face it, most MMOs, on paper, suck. With only interaction with a bunch of 12 year old lame kids or random interesting people serving as the real differance between them, something needs to change, the question is what.

An Article on the subject. With apologies to the original article, I quote it edited, even then, feel free to scroll. Most of what I edited is examples, so if you feel that the author dosn't provide examples, click the link.
You already know all about the MMO (Massively Multiplayer Online) phenomenon: the GDC panels, the rants, the spectacular failures and successes, the addictions, the “Make Love, Not Warcraft” South Park episode, the ubiquitous elves, and especially the profits. Just in case you haven’t been paying attention, though, here’s a brief explanation of why MMOs are important.

World of Warcraft is a rather successful MMO. Its subscription model gives it a trump card against software pirates, and its massive subscriber base guarantees continued revenue for the next few years at least, if current trends are to be trusted. Even World of Warcraft’s older, poorer cousins, such Everquest and Ultima Online, continue to turn profits many years after their initial release.

On the other side of the PC gaming coin, non-subscription retail games face increasingly grim prospects as customers turn to pirated software and parasitic games such as the aforementioned World of Warcraft, which more than one executive has blamed for slow PC game sales. And they appear to have a valid complaint: retail sales of PC games have fallen every year since 2001, while revenue from subscription fees has skyrocketed.

Clearly, the trends show that the future of enthusiast PC gaming lies with games that can hold a player’s interest over long periods of time; at the very least, these games commute PC gaming’s death sentence for a few years, until game consoles can provide the features, depth, flexibility, and convenience that PCs allow.

The thing is…we all expected these games to evolve. We looked at Everquest and its addictiveness and reasoned that surely someone would improve on this formula, creating a breed of entertainment that the entire spectrum of gamers could enjoy. Instead, we have seen a parade of copycats that fails to appeal to a large portion of the potential market, despite far bigger development budgets than any offline games.

What’s the problem? Is it that MMO developers choose to design their games for a niche audience? Or are the designers, who often have little to no experience with traditional video game design, simply incapable of designing anything but a nerd-fest? I can’t answer that, but here are a few questions on the subject I do want to try to answer from the standpoint of a traditional game designer: What exactly is an MMO? Will the current MMO formula hold up over time? What is holding this type of game back from more universal success, and how can it be improved?

Massive Misnomer

If we are to understand why these games have such widespread popularity, it is important to recognize what distinguishing game elements draw players in and keep them hooked.

In defining just what kind of games fall into this category, the term “MMO” is itself not particularly helpful. If my memory serves me correctly, “massively multiplayer” was simply marketing-speak used to promote Everquest when it launched. Being able to interact with thousands of other people was touted as one of the game’s most important features, setting it apart from more diminutively online multiplayer games of the time, such as Diablo.

However, the “massively multiplayer” aspect of subscription games is not what draws people into these games and keeps them hooked, in most cases. Imagine, for instance, that World of Warcraft were set up like Diablo 2 (not a “massively multiplayer” game), where only eight players could play in a single game, and the game was balanced with this restriction in mind. The game would still be quite playable and fun for most of the people who currently subscribe. In fact, in the game’s present form, players rarely interact with more than the same few people every time they log in. If dragons could be killed with only eight players, players’ social circles would be even smaller, making the other thousands of players nigh-irrelevant.

That’s not to say that all these other players are a bad thing; they’re just not the most important thing in this particular type of game. It is quite possible to create a game where interacting with lots of people is the most appealing feature (Second Life and others). However, that category of quasi-games is outside the scope of this discussion.

Persistence Pays

What is it, then, that convinces a subscriber to pay triple digits every year for a single game? What facet of the game would cause the whole tower to crumble if removed? The answer is persistent character progression. Imagine that World of Warcraft is now back to hosting thousands of players on each server (plus several hundred in the login queue, of course). This time, however, when a player gains a level, it only lasts until the player logs off—like a game of Quake, where all kill stats reset when the game is over. The same goes for abilities, items, and all other forms of progression. Players can still interact with thousands of other players and do everything else they could do before; the one change is that their character progress is no longer persistent. My hunch is that under these conditions, the game would not have many subscribers left, as neither the gameplay mechanics nor the ability to interact with thousands of players would provide enough appeal to retain them.

The reality is that the MMO as we know it is primarily about advancing a “secure” persistent entity (character, team, vehicle, country, etc.) in a multiplayer environment of any size. (Diablo 2’s wonderful experiment with “Closed,” “Open,” and “Ladder” realms provides convincing evidence that the feeling of accomplishment increases—and attracts more players—when it is validated by the presence of other players and by attempted cheat prevention.) For the developers and publishers, of course, it is also about collecting a subscription fee or other type of regular payment, but this is not an essential part of the user experience. My term to describe these games, then, is Persistent Entity Game, or PEG.

It is not quite right to say that PEG (or MMO, in its current usage) is a genre of game; the concept of advancing a persistent entity (or interacting with hundreds of other players) can be included in games of many genres, from First Person Shooter (World War II Online), to Real-Time Strategy (Shattered Galaxy), to Sports (Smallball) to Role-Playing (Ultima Online). Even tedious games that are terribly designed in a traditional video game sense (not naming any names here) can hold a great deal of appeal for many people, simply because the allure of a persistent character is so strong.


Solving the Problems

Problem #1: Boring Gameplay

Just as with adventure games of yesteryear, the persistent-character games on the market today have stale and unappealing gameplay mechanics. The central mechanic is “die-roll” combat, where players and monsters take turns hitting each other at regular intervals until statistics dictate that one of them falls over.
Solution: Ensure that gameplay provides enjoyable mental and/or physical challenges

Almost every good video game in existence requires the user to surmount challenges with brains or dexterity, rather than tedious repetition. And PEGs need to be good video games first and foremost, not just treat dispensers. If the only real challenges in the game are spending a few thousand hours playing the game, hoping your stats are better than your enemy’s stats, and waiting for the treats to drop into your lap, it is not a good video game, as the satirical “game” Progress Quest illustrates.


Problem #2: Grinding


Another issue that stems partly from die-roll combat is that of “grinding.” Grinding is the act of playing in a repetitive, unexciting, or otherwise un-enjoyable fashion in order to make faster progress. Since die-roll combat is based on two factors that are generally very easy to quantify and predict (the player’s power and the enemy’s power), it follows that players almost always know at the start of a battle who the winner will be. This knowledge lessens the excitement and tension of battles. As players are able to predict outcomes with a high degree of accuracy, games are balanced with the assumption that players will win a very high percentage of their battles. In other words, the punishment for losing a single battle far outstrips the average reward for winning a single battle. Players will spend hours at a time churning through feeble, ineffectual opponents rather than taking on more risk, because the game rewards them more for adopting this style of play.

Another factor that leads to “grinding” is that PEGs tend to be balanced in a way such that players run out of new things to do well before they have advanced their characters far enough to move on to new content. As a result, they must do the same things over many times before they can progress.

Solution 1: Encourage players to play in fun ways



All things being equal, players will choose fun activities over dull ones; all a game designer has to do is to ensure that players are not rewarded more for choosing the dull ones. Once the reward for “grinding” is less appealing than for playing in a fun way, players have no reason to “grind.”

In particular, games should give players who take on tougher or more unpredictable challenges, even if they fail often, better rewards (such as faster advancement) than if they had 100% success with weak or predictable challenges.

Solution 2: Tune advancement to match game content

If players get bored at level 24 because they can’t have any meaningful new experiences (such as exploration, loot, enemies, and quests) until they reach level 30, then players should reach level 30 sooner, or the designer needs to add more things for them to do until they reach level 30 (besides repeating the same things they have been doing). Players should still need to “earn” their advancement, but the best way of earning it should involve overcoming interesting challenges, not by subjecting oneself to hours of tedium.



Problem #3: Advancement-holics Anonymous




Voluminous discussion (including the lion’s share of all gamer and developer “rants”) has been conducted on the subject of PEGs. Most of it, unfortunately, assumes the inclusion of boring gameplay mechanics, then goes on to debate implementation details such as game balance issues (whether progression should primarily take the form of character skills or levels, whether one type of character is more powerful than another, etc.), how best to prevent real money from influencing in-game accomplishment, and other secondary issues. They rarely address the problem described in section #1: boring gameplay mechanics.

This misplaced focus reflects one of the problems of the genre: issues related to advancement comprise the bulk of the discussion because the game’s appeal comes almost entirely from character building. In fact, designers treat it as the game’s ultimate goal. Everything else—quests, game mechanics, social interactions—are an often undesirable means to a desirable end; namely, acquiring levels and loot. Players have learned that the best rewards in a PEG always come from burning through the game as quickly as possible. Nothing in the game is worth experiencing for its own sake; if it doesn’t give experience or loot, it’s a waste of time in players’ minds. Designers, unfortunately, make little effort to discourage the player from thinking otherwise, as they put very little content into the game that is worth experiencing for its own sake. In other words, they encourage players to play this way. This model is the exact opposite of single-player games, where character advancement (skills, items, levels, etc.), though still a reward, is primarily a one of several tools the player uses in his primary task: advancing through game content.

Solution 1: Provide worthwhile alternate goals


Players like advancement because it gives them a feeling of accomplishment, acknowledges their abilities (or time spent on the game, unfortunately), and in some cases, gives them the feeling that they are getting closer to the best parts of the game.

One way to tempt players to play for something other than numerical advancement is to offer other avenues for accomplishment.

Solution 2: Make the journey interesting


The “roller coaster” game has a designated start and end point, as well as a pre-defined path connecting the two. Experiences as the roller-coaster travels from the start to the end provide the enjoyment—visuals, play mechanics, story, characters, enemies, animations, scripted events, settings, novelty, etc. Examples of well-received “roller-coaster games” include Half Life 2 and God of War. Although there are different ways to play and customize the experience in these games, the player does not deviate from the pre-defined path in any meaningful way.

Many PEGs are primarily of the roller-coaster variety. Although they allow the player to roam around, customize characters, etc., the point of the game is still to travel along a relatively pre-defined path from the start (level 1) to the end (maximum level and best equipment). There is rarely creativity involved, and the only meaningful customization is typically a series of one-time choices made at the start of the game (character creation). Players who have reached the “end of the game” and made the same initial choices (class, race, skills, etc.) often have nearly identical play experiences and characters. In itself, this is not a terrible thing, as the same is true of many high-quality games. However, instead of being like a roller-coaster, PEGs of this ilk are more like freight trains. Although they are still constrained to the path dictated by the designer, there are few interesting experiences between the start and end, the trip is painfully slow and entirely predictable, and the whole point of the journey is to get to a destination, not to enjoy the ride.

Problem #4: Making Players Feel Ordinary

One reason that video games are appealing is that they allow players to be someone important: a rock star, a valiant hero, a benevolent deity, a nefarious villain, a cunning thief, a brilliant general. PEGs, which are supposed to enhance this attraction with advancement elements, ironically tend to diminish this appeal in various ways.

First, a player doesn’t feel all that important when there are thousands of other “heroes” in the same world doing the same things. Instead, the player is just another face in the crowd, trying to get a little bit ahead in the rat race. In the land where everyone’s a hero, heroes are commoners.

Solution 1: Make difficulty progression varied


Typically, RPG-type PEGs increase difficulty by bumping up enemy hit points and damage output. These tougher enemies may require more time or more players to defeat than easier enemies, but the player does not have to take any different actions to defeat them. The same buttons are pressed, the same ability types used. Therefore, players do not feel any more powerful than when fighting the earlier enemies, even though they may have advanced significantly since then. In order to give meaning to this advancement, the challenges the player faces should force the player to view them in a different light as difficulty increases.


Solution 2: Make character progression about more than just numbers


Because even good gameplay mechanics will wear out their welcome with enough repetition, it is important to introduce new mechanics and variations, as well as new uses for old mechanics, as the game progresses. It isn’t enough to give the player a more potent version of an old ability. Players will use this ability in the same way and in the same situations they used the old ability; gameplay is unchanged. The player doesn’t need 20 different variations of “do some damage”; instead, new abilities should offer markedly different gameplay possibilities if they are to hold players’ interest and give them a feeling of genuine advancement.

Solution 3: Design for the solo player

Encouraging players to play alone or in small, regular groups solves several problems. First, the player feels more powerful because he is not surrounded by hundreds of other players whose persistent entities are stronger or more advanced than his. Second, the player is not involuntarily exposed to aspects of unexplored game content (a.k.a. “spoilers”) through contact with those other players, making exploration and discovery of that content more satisfying later on. Third, the time necessary to play the game is reduced, since the player does not need to spend time finding other players to play with first (this is discussed more in section #6). Fourth, limiting the number of players who can congregate in one area allows CPU/GPU cycles to be used to make the game look and play better instead of being reserved for scenes where dozens of player models must be drawn. Lastly, solo play gives anti-social players a way to advance their persistent entity without affecting other players’ game experience, as well giving all players a way to avoid anti-social behavior without lessening their game experience in some way.

Problem #5: Domineering Design

There is nothing as frustrating for a player than being told by the game, “You can’t do that!” without a logical explanation for the limitation. Examples of this type of artificial limitation include:
· Invisible barriers preventing a character from walking into an apparently open area
· Abilities becoming useless in certain areas or against certain opponents
· The inability use two different abilities together (“stacking”)
· Limited interaction with certain non-player characters (NPCs), such as the inability to attack quest-giving NPCs

Artificial limitations like these make the game environment feel more like a set of arbitrary rules than a real world. It is not a big deal for glorified board games like Civilization, where the game consists of rules and artificial constructs with just a thin veneer of realism. However, for role-playing games, where the point of the game (supposedly) is to exist in a fictional—but believable—universe, unnatural constraints are especially problematic.



Solution 1: Design for fun first, balance second




It’s incredibly tough to take a dull but balanced game and make it fun. It is much easier to balance a fun but unbalanced game. There are several steps that can be taken to ensure that the fun goes in first:
· Create a gameplay prototype to get an idea of how your ideas translate into a real experience.
· Think about the “fun factor” a feature adds for the average player before including it. Don’t throw things into the design just because Game X had it or because a vocal minority demands it.
· Avoid adding limitations just because they will save a little bit of development time. Go the extra mile to give the player the greatest sense of freedom possible.
· Don’t be afraid to throw out genre conventions.
· Trust your ability to balance things later. That’s the easy part.
· Don’t assume that the fun will magically appear once some feature or piece of content is added late in development.



Solution 2: Make creativity the object of the game


[snip]

Giving players the power to alter the game world through creation has another strong advantage, as discussed in section #3: players would provide each other with the fresh content necessary to maintain the game’s longevity. All you have to do is provide viable tools, sufficient incentives (either real or virtual), and a quality filter. A sampling of myspace.com user profiles shows that even people with no technical skill can be motivated to learn new tools and concepts that allow them to create and customize. With the proper tools, such as the dungeon-editing GUI in Dungeon Keeper and the creature editing tools in Spore, you can put your players to work for you and make the game more enjoyable for them in the process.

Solution 3: Present the player with diverse challenges and multi-purpose tools



Intelligent, adaptive AI and interactive, volatile environments are two examples of game features that can provide a foundation for the “emergent gameplay” that can help generate the kind of challenges needed to keep players on their toes without each individual challenge having to be prepared in advance by a designer. A simple example: In Act V of Diablo 2, on the Bloody Foothills level, the designer scattered friendly soldiers across the level. These soldiers are somewhat weak and will die without the player’s intervention. The player can choose to ignore these soldiers and proceed as if they did not exist, in which case they will all likely suffer a cruel demise, but the player can continue playing as in all the other levels. Or the player can focus on rescuing the soldiers and protecting them, gradually accumulating a veritable army (if successful) on the way to the boss fight. In this case, a very simple and inexpensive addition to the game has created a new, unique challenge for the player to take on (and fitting rewards) without shoving it down the player’s throat.

Problem #6: Exorbitant Time Requirements

The biggest reason is that a large portion of the market is unwilling or unable to dedicate a lot of their time to your game. Former PEG players who have had to quit because of time constraints, uncooperative spouses, jobs, graduation from college, etc., might be willing to play a PEG that provided equal enjoyment for a smaller time commitment. People who game at lunch, on breaks, at the office after work, or even during work could be buying and playing your game if it provided enough enjoyment within their limited time frame. Why should they be wasting their company’s money playing Solitaire when they could be wasting it playing your game? Instead, it has become conventional wisdom that you have to dedicate all your gaming time and even a big chunk of your life to enjoy a PEG, and as a result, this part of the market is largely untapped.



In current PEGs, three elements are to blame for making short play stints unsatisfying.

First, players have to spend too much time organizing and preparing, whether it is seeking out other players for grouping, traveling (often to join those players), or arranging players into groups, giving instructions, and clearing “trash” (typically, unchallenging encounters that yield little to no reward, but that must be cleared before it is possible to fight a boss) for a “raid.” Playing with others is fun; organizing and preparing is not.

Second, players typically must play for a long time before they receive any reward, yet another aspect of current PEGs that would be a death warrant for any single-player game. When players fail to earn any reward, they either end up playing a long session in order to earn the reward or quit altogether because they are not having fun. Neither situation is desirable.

Third, many challenges simply take long, continuous play sessions to overcome. If the player leaves the game before the end, he must start again from the beginning in his next attempt. In many cases, even staying logged in and leaving the game for a few minutes can result in disaster, whether it be from the ensuing miscommunication (Leroy Jenkins!), enemy behavior (spawning, wandering), or a suddenly short-handed group being overwhelmed.



Solution 1: Let the player have fun right away




Let players get where they are going as quickly as possible (Diablo 2’s waypoints are a fine example). Let them accomplish something meaningful without having to organize with other players. If they do want to join other players, provide an efficient matchmaking feature and allow them to join each other as quickly as possible. The character summoning feature found in several games is a good solution, but it is often restricted to specific locations and/or high-level characters.



Solution 2: Unchain players from the keyboard


Sometimes, players just have to stop playing for a while. Biological needs, kids that need to be picked up or taken care of, and meals are just some of the common events that take players’ attention away from the game. The game design should take these interruptions into account. Players should be able to get back into the action quickly and without causing in-game problems such as death/dismemberment, separation from the group, etc. The Diablo series, which despite its flaws is one of the best game design teaching tools in existence (Magic: the Gathering and Deus Ex are two others), solved this problem neatly with Town Portals, which allow players to go instantly to a safe area for as long as is needed and return at will.



Solution 3: Let the player accomplish something in a short play session
While I do not agree with all the solutions offered, mostly because I don't think he gives enough credit to the problem of creating content that can be sampled by thousands at once, without breaking it for any of them. I find that the problems atleasrt, are interesting.
Brotherhood of the Bear | HAB | Mess | SDnet archivist |
User avatar
General Zod
Never Shuts Up
Posts: 29211
Joined: 2003-11-18 03:08pm
Location: The Clearance Rack
Contact:

Post by General Zod »

After playing with City of Heroes for some time now, I have to agree with just about all of the problems. The repetition is probably the biggest downer to the game, and having gotten up to level 20-ish with very little 'new' being added beyond a handful of powers and unlocked costume aspects, it's not really enough to make me want to resubscribe for another month. If they did something as simple as changing the game mechanics to where it wasn't a meager point and click repetition, giving it FPS or even fighting game style mechanics, it would make it vastly more entertaining.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
User avatar
RogueIce
_______
Posts: 13388
Joined: 2003-01-05 01:36am
Location: Tampa Bay, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by RogueIce »

I have to agree with the grinding thing. I played FFXI once, and that was enough for me. I "cheated" my way to level 10 (had a much more powerful character on hand to heal me, so I could take on more powerful monsters than I should have been able to), yet even that took me a few hours of boring, repititive gameplay. I can't imagine what it would have been like to do all that by fighting those stupid rabbits and landworms.

Then there was the almost total lack of social interaction. Maybe I was on at a bad time, or in a lousy server, or something like that, but honestly all the people who were there? Couldn't give two shits about me. They were either sitting around that auction place buying/selling (and doing nothing but stand there) or were only in various places to pick up quests and shit. With no time to spare for someone like me.

And really, I don't have time for all that. Grinding, even by "cheating" was horribly boring. And yet I'll pay out every month to do it? No thanks. Maybe the dungeons and stuff are more interesting, but I doubt it. I saw my friend do that; it was the same shit as before, just with more people. Maybe not to get to new levels, but to get some shiney new artifacts or cash. Whoopee. :roll:

I can't say that I know how to fix it, nor do I think this article has all the answers (some of the "solutions" really sound like just taking it back to more limited multiplayer games, just with a big world instead of generating your own match-ups). But if FFXI is any indication, I'm glad I stayed away from the MMOs.
Image
"How can I wait unknowing?
This is the price of war,
We rise with noble intentions,
And we risk all that is pure..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, Forever (Rome: Total War)

"On and on, through the years,
The war continues on..." - Angela & Jeff van Dyck, We Are All One (Medieval 2: Total War)
"Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear." - Ambrose Redmoon
"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain." - Harvey Dent, The Dark Knight
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Guild Wars doesn't have a lot of these problems. But I haven't played any MMO regularly other than guild wars.

What some people see as problems others see as a feature. Not that I personally think grinding is a feature, but I know people who like grinding. And you don't have to be insane or stupid to like grinding either.

To me fighting computers is incredibly boring. I have to fight people. If I fight computer opponents, no matter how good they are, it's just not as fun as knowing there's someone on the other side you're playing with and beating. More of a psychological thing, but that's why to me balance is fun because if the game's unbalanced player versus player becomes a retard fest of everybody coming around running the same strategy.
User avatar
CaptHawkeye
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2939
Joined: 2007-03-04 06:52pm
Location: Korea.

Post by CaptHawkeye »

Planetside solved most of these problems from the day of its conception. I could never understand why it wasn't more popular.
Best care anywhere.
User avatar
White Haven
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6360
Joined: 2004-05-17 03:14pm
Location: The North Remembers, When It Can Be Bothered

Post by White Haven »

Perhaps its atrociously bad lag problems had something to do with it? Just a thought.
Image
Image
Chronological Incontinence: Time warps around the poster. The thread topic winks out of existence and reappears in 1d10 posts.

Out of Context Theatre, this week starring Darth Nostril.
-'If you really want to fuck with these idiots tell them that there is a vaccine for chemtrails.'

Fiction!: The Final War (Bolo/Lovecraft) (Ch 7 9/15/11), Living (D&D, Complete)Image
User avatar
Ace Pace
Hardware Lover
Posts: 8456
Joined: 2002-07-07 03:04am
Location: Wasting time instead of money
Contact:

Post by Ace Pace »

Maybe lag, maybe implementation. If you do an FPS, people will typically require something at the very least equivilent graphically to modern titles. Not groundbreaking but it should atleast be equal. From what I recall, Planetside didn't deliver on that.
Brotherhood of the Bear | HAB | Mess | SDnet archivist |
User avatar
Teleros
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 2006-03-31 02:11pm
Location: Ultra Prime, Klovia
Contact:

Post by Teleros »

Have to agree that the grinding in WoW is a pain - and to make it worse I'm the type that wants to do everything in it (you try rep grinding for Wintersabre Trainers... sheesh). On the other hand the rest of the time it's good fun - I'm a paladin and good enough to do all 3 roles reasonably competently (ie healing, taking damage or tanking, dealing damage or DPSing), so I at least get some varied gaming in.
User avatar
Covenant
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4451
Joined: 2006-04-11 07:43am

Post by Covenant »

I agree on all parts. The idea of character building is not unappealing, as I liked to do it in Armored Core and other similar games, but MMO's nearly always lock you into things. The flexibility that you may get from a game like Armored Core simply does not exist in an MMO, so if I start off a druid, a druid I remain until the end of time. The problem with the holy trinity of Tank, Damage, Healing is further aggrivated by that, so not only do I remain a Druid, but I generally do the same thing from A to Z.

With variation. WoW gave all the characters a few fun ways to play, which was a big step up, but it's still not ideal. I personally hate levelling though, and wish they'd just do away with it.
User avatar
lPeregrine
Jedi Knight
Posts: 673
Joined: 2005-01-08 01:10am

Post by lPeregrine »

The solution, in short form: Make MMORPGs more like EVE Online and less like WoW.

In detail:

1) REMOVE GRINDING. Lets look at the average WoW character's life: grind early bosses to get to level 60 asap, so you can grind the level 60 dungeons to get better gear. This better gear allows you to more efficiently grind the next dungeon, giving you better gear for the dungeon after that, etc. And every few months, just when you think you've finally conquered the ultimate boss and "won" the game, there's an expansion with even more dungeons and random loot drops.

2) MAKE PLAYER ACTIONS MATTER: How many times have you seen it in an MMORPG? You've finally defeated the undead lord and saved the kingdom, the citizens praise you as the one true hero, sure to be a feature of epic tales for centuries to come. Just like a hundred thousand other players who just did the same quest. And naturally, every hour the undead lord respawns, so you can kill him again and get another try at the +20 Sword of 1337ness.

3) MAKE PVP MATTER: WoW Pvp is a joke. PvP should not just be deathmatch, it needs real consequences. Remove item respawning, you die, you lose everything and your killer loots the corpse. And remove the absurd idea that PvP has to be consentual... EVERY server should be a PvP server, and you should be able to kill anyone you want, anywhere you want.

4) REMOVE GM HANDHOLDING: In virtually every MMORPG, you're forced to be a good character. Act evil, and you'll be banned. Lie, steal, kill, and you'll be banned so the poor little PvE players don't have to suffer any loss.

5) REMOVE 26 HOUR A DAY GAMEPLAY: In most MMORPGs, your power in the game is directly proportional to the time you spend playing the game. There's no way to improve your character without tons of time, and if you invest enough time, you're virtually guaranteed to reach the top elite levels. So anyone who actually has a life in the real world is unable to enjoy the full potential of the game. EVE had the right idea with offline skill training, MMORPGs need to appeal to more than kids who can play 16 hours a day.
Enforcer Talen
Warlock
Posts: 10285
Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
Location: Boston
Contact:

Post by Enforcer Talen »

Id prefer smaller groups - I like having a clique of 8 or so people who do all the quests together, instead of my friends list of 50 people, so the odds are someone is in the area.

Also, I think Id prefer more flexibility, GURPS style. So what if I want to be a fighter/mage?
Image
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
User avatar
Teleros
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 2006-03-31 02:11pm
Location: Ultra Prime, Klovia
Contact:

Post by Teleros »

lPeregrine wrote:REMOVE GRINDING. Lets look at the average WoW character's life: grind early bosses to get to level 60 asap, so you can grind the level 60 dungeons to get better gear. This better gear allows you to more efficiently grind the next dungeon, giving you better gear for the dungeon after that, etc. And every few months, just when you think you've finally conquered the ultimate boss and "won" the game, there's an expansion with even more dungeons and random loot drops.
The problem is what to replace it with. If I'm farming herbs for tonight's run in Gruul's Lair, it means heading off to find said herbs for several hours most likely. Sure you can buy them but you still need to grind for the money to buy them with :P .
lPeregrine wrote:MAKE PLAYER ACTIONS MATTER: How many times have you seen it in an MMORPG? You've finally defeated the undead lord and saved the kingdom, the citizens praise you as the one true hero, sure to be a feature of epic tales for centuries to come. Just like a hundred thousand other players who just did the same quest. And naturally, every hour the undead lord respawns, so you can kill him again and get another try at the +20 Sword of 1337ness.
i) The problem here is the size of the world - if you're on a (small) WoW server with 5000 people, what happens when one guild kills say Nefarian in Blackwing Lair? Is he dead forever, and if so, who will replace him for the other players when they want to get similarly good loot? It's a very different situation with named NPCs like this than it is with "undead lord #4412b" :P .
ii) Have you considered the amount of effort required to make good alternatives each time? Really what you'll find are lots of poorly-done bosses etc on a level that make SW clone troopers look individual :P .
lPeregrine wrote:MAKE PVP MATTER: WoW Pvp is a joke. PvP should not just be deathmatch, it needs real consequences. Remove item respawning, you die, you lose everything and your killer loots the corpse. And remove the absurd idea that PvP has to be consentual... EVERY server should be a PvP server, and you should be able to kill anyone you want, anywhere you want.
i) What's wrong with consensual PvP? Most of the time I've got better things to do than have some damn rogue gank me. However if I do want that style of gaming, I can turn on PvP or go to a PvP server (where PvP is on the whole time).
ii) Looting someone's items when they die = who'd play it? Even on EVE they have character backups etc in case you do die. Also don't forget that in the WoW Battlegrounds you have specific objectives to accomplish - if either side in say Alterac Valley is reduced to 5 players, it is impossible to complete.
iii) Who loots if several people helped kill you? I foresee many rich melee classes as the poor mages et al can't reach the bodies in time: hell I could enter a battleground, loot and then teleport away in my case, then post the profits to another character of mine (ie so I keep them if I die in PvP and get looted myself).
lPeregrine wrote:REMOVE GM HANDHOLDING: In virtually every MMORPG, you're forced to be a good character. Act evil, and you'll be banned. Lie, steal, kill, and you'll be banned so the poor little PvE players don't have to suffer any loss.
i) Love the idea of being allowed to play an evil sod and I think we don't get enough chances to do this in most RPGs (not just MMORPGs), but...
ii) "The poor little PvE players" won't likely be affected by your evil ways anyway as they're PvE, so about the worst you can do is stick a big buyout price on an item in the auction house or similar scam... which isn't the sort of thing people get banned for (and if you fall for it, well lol).
iii) In PvP it can be counter-productive given that it focuses on teamplay (ie you lose out too), but if you're determined then you can easily screw things up for your own side, it just takes a little more imagination that "I want to stab our healers" ;) .
lPeregrine wrote:REMOVE 26 HOUR A DAY GAMEPLAY: In most MMORPGs, your power in the game is directly proportional to the time you spend playing the game. There's no way to improve your character without tons of time, and if you invest enough time, you're virtually guaranteed to reach the top elite levels. So anyone who actually has a life in the real world is unable to enjoy the full potential of the game. EVE had the right idea with offline skill training, MMORPGs need to appeal to more than kids who can play 16 hours a day.
i) The problem is that the way WoW works, you won't get much benefit from offline skill training unless the game can take liberties with, say, making potions from nothing if you're an alchemist. Sure I can see weapon skills going up for example, but reputation with faction X? Why should you get it just for being offline / existing :P ?
ii) With the new arena system this problem has been massively reduced for WoW PvP at least. For PvE it's a lot harder because some things simply take lots of time (like learning tactics for a boss, farming items for a dungeon...). At least WoW tries to help here with the bonus XP you gain for being offline (up to 1.5 levels I think it goes to, so there is a limit).
iii) And let's face it, it's a lot more fair to reward those who play more the most: if I'm on for 16hrs (only :P ?) then why shouldn't I get more out of it than someone who's only on 4hrs?
User avatar
lPeregrine
Jedi Knight
Posts: 673
Joined: 2005-01-08 01:10am

Post by lPeregrine »

Teleros wrote:
lPeregrine wrote:REMOVE GRINDING. Lets look at the average WoW character's life: grind early bosses to get to level 60 asap, so you can grind the level 60 dungeons to get better gear. This better gear allows you to more efficiently grind the next dungeon, giving you better gear for the dungeon after that, etc. And every few months, just when you think you've finally conquered the ultimate boss and "won" the game, there's an expansion with even more dungeons and random loot drops.
The problem is what to replace it with. If I'm farming herbs for tonight's run in Gruul's Lair, it means heading off to find said herbs for several hours most likely. Sure you can buy them but you still need to grind for the money to buy them with :P .
Replace it with PvP. Make it easy to finance PvP, so you don't HAVE to grind for hours at a time to get your herbs. This balances out the high-stakes PvP, it's easy to lose everything, but it's not too hard to get it back.
lPeregrine wrote:MAKE PLAYER ACTIONS MATTER: How many times have you seen it in an MMORPG? You've finally defeated the undead lord and saved the kingdom, the citizens praise you as the one true hero, sure to be a feature of epic tales for centuries to come. Just like a hundred thousand other players who just did the same quest. And naturally, every hour the undead lord respawns, so you can kill him again and get another try at the +20 Sword of 1337ness.
i) The problem here is the size of the world - if you're on a (small) WoW server with 5000 people, what happens when one guild kills say Nefarian in Blackwing Lair? Is he dead forever, and if so, who will replace him for the other players when they want to get similarly good loot? It's a very different situation with named NPCs like this than it is with "undead lord #4412b" :P .
Replace NPC content with player content. Battles in WoW don't matter, because the boss just respawns. Battles in EVE matter because the enemy fleet is a PLAYER fleet, and if you kill it you can take over their territory (and they can rebuild and make a counter-attack, etc). You get the same dramatic events, but without the artificial respawning.
ii) Have you considered the amount of effort required to make good alternatives each time? Really what you'll find are lots of poorly-done bosses etc on a level that make SW clone troopers look individual :P .
The effort is near-zero, once the basic gameplay mechanics are done. That's the nice thing about player-driven content. Not only is it more enjoyable, but the players do most of the work themselves.
lPeregrine wrote:MAKE PVP MATTER: WoW Pvp is a joke. PvP should not just be deathmatch, it needs real consequences. Remove item respawning, you die, you lose everything and your killer loots the corpse. And remove the absurd idea that PvP has to be consentual... EVERY server should be a PvP server, and you should be able to kill anyone you want, anywhere you want.
i) What's wrong with consensual PvP? Most of the time I've got better things to do than have some damn rogue gank me. However if I do want that style of gaming, I can turn on PvP or go to a PvP server (where PvP is on the whole time).
It's unrealistic and frustrating, especially if you want to play an 'evil' character. If you don't want to get ganked, learn to defend yourself instead of expecting the GMs to hold your hand and protect you.
ii) Looting someone's items when they die = who'd play it? Even on EVE they have character backups etc in case you do die.
Those character backups only cover your skill points. Your actual ship and items are permanently destroyed (except for what survives to be deleted). I didn't say permanent character death should be added (that would be frustrating and lame), just that PvP should have real risks.
Also don't forget that in the WoW Battlegrounds you have specific objectives to accomplish - if either side in say Alterac Valley is reduced to 5 players, it is impossible to complete.
Sucks to be you. Don't get killed then. That's the risk of engaging in PvP, you might not win.
iii) Who loots if several people helped kill you? I foresee many rich melee classes as the poor mages et al can't reach the bodies in time: hell I could enter a battleground, loot and then teleport away in my case, then post the profits to another character of mine (ie so I keep them if I die in PvP and get looted myself).
Well, for one thing, there shouldn't be special battlegrounds for PvP, the entire server should be the battleground. But in groups, you either trust your guild-mates to be fair with the loot, or you backstab them and whoever has the biggest guns gets the loot.

The problem here is you want game mechanics to do the work of players, and that just doesn't work.

ii) "The poor little PvE players" won't likely be affected by your evil ways anyway as they're PvE, so about the worst you can do is stick a big buyout price on an item in the auction house or similar scam... which isn't the sort of thing people get banned for (and if you fall for it, well lol).
Every single scam you can think of is legal in EVE. Spying, corporation theft (get into a corp, loot their assets, kill them all, and harvest their corpses), scamming (with any and all lying and general dishonesty allowed), etc. Try that in WoW, and you'd be banned.

i) The problem is that the way WoW works, you won't get much benefit from offline skill training unless the game can take liberties with, say, making potions from nothing if you're an alchemist. Sure I can see weapon skills going up for example, but reputation with faction X? Why should you get it just for being offline / existing :P ?
Then redesign the skill system. This isn't impossible, EVE has done it just fine. Get used to the fact that WoW has crippling flaws, and should probably just be scrapped and re-done from the beginning.
ii) With the new arena system this problem has been massively reduced for WoW PvP at least. For PvE it's a lot harder because some things simply take lots of time (like learning tactics for a boss, farming items for a dungeon...).
And notice the problem here: with farming, you get massive time demands. Success should be about skills and tactics, not who can give up more of the real-world to play obsessively.
At least WoW tries to help here with the bonus XP you gain for being offline (up to 1.5 levels I think it goes to, so there is a limit).
iii) And let's face it, it's a lot more fair to reward those who play more the most: if I'm on for 16hrs (only :P ?) then why shouldn't I get more out of it than someone who's only on 4hrs?
At least that's a small step in the right direction...

But the more appropriate question is "why shouldn't I be able to get the same enjoyment out of the game as you do?" I pay the same $15 a month for the game. And most people just don't have the time to play a game that much, we have jobs, school, social lives, families, etc. So we literally can't match the most dedicated players... and if we can't, why bother playing at all?

It's not like playing the game for massive amounts of time actually takes any great skill. It's just a matter of stubborn dedication and giving up everything else in life.
User avatar
Comando293
Padawan Learner
Posts: 190
Joined: 2005-11-04 07:56pm
Location: Right Behind You
Contact:

Post by Comando293 »

Teleros wrote: i) The problem here is the size of the world - if you're on a (small) WoW server with 5000 people, what happens when one guild kills say Nefarian in Blackwing Lair? Is he dead forever, and if so, who will replace him for the other players when they want to get similarly good loot? It's a very different situation with named NPCs like this than it is with "undead lord #4412b" .
ii) Have you considered the amount of effort required to make good alternatives each time? Really what you'll find are lots of poorly-done bosses etc on a level that make SW clone troopers look individual .
Here is what you do. The Uberboss is killed by Player#1. That player then assumes the title of the NPC he just killed. Player #2 comes along and kills Player#1. Player #1 then gets his buddies to help him retake power from Player#2. Then Player #3 and Player #4 duel each other in order to get power in a different kingdom. That kingdom then attacks the first, and power shifts. If players want a different path, then they can instead work for the king, enforcing his will in the wilderness in the west of the kingdom.
Teleros wrote:
IPeregrin wrote:MAKE PVP MATTER: WoW Pvp is a joke. PvP should not just be deathmatch, it needs real consequences. Remove item respawning, you die, you lose everything and your killer loots the corpse. And remove the absurd idea that PvP has to be consentual... EVERY server should be a PvP server, and you should be able to kill anyone you want, anywhere you want.
i) What's wrong with consensual PvP? Most of the time I've got better things to do than have some damn rogue gank me. However if I do want that style of gaming, I can turn on PvP or go to a PvP server (where PvP is on the whole time).
ii) Looting someone's items when they die = who'd play it? Even on EVE they have character backups etc in case you do die. Also don't forget that in the WoW Battlegrounds you have specific objectives to accomplish - if either side in say Alterac Valley is reduced to 5 players, it is impossible to complete.
iii) Who loots if several people helped kill you? I foresee many rich melee classes as the poor mages et al can't reach the bodies in time: hell I could enter a battleground, loot and then teleport away in my case, then post the profits to another character of mine (ie so I keep them if I die in PvP and get looted myself).
See above. In this way, other people can choose not to kill other poeple, but can. The Rogue that just ganked you will then be wanted by the King's Watchmen. The group that just killed you will be vulnerable. they will be attacked by your friends, or they will kill each other as they try to get your loot.

You can be evil if you want, but the player-run ingame Government will then try to stip you of your power. You and your gang can try to run, and may get to a different country, but the country may be conquered, and you given up as part of the surrender terms.


I hope that makes sense.
Avatar courtesy of Alan Bolte and Glimmervoid
User avatar
Fingolfin_Noldor
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11834
Joined: 2006-05-15 10:36am
Location: At the Helm of the HAB Star Dreadnaught Star Fist

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

If you are going to allow people to loot you upon defeat, I will assure you that game play in certain areas will be extremely limited in certain areas. How you would expect a Lvl 30 character or less to do any questing with Lvl 60 school bullies running around ganking people for the sheer fun of it is quite beyond me. I have played WoW once and frankly some people make it their business to deny anyone any peace.
Image
STGOD: Byzantine Empire
Your spirit, diseased as it is, refuses to allow you to give up, no matter what threats you face... and whatever wreckage you leave behind you.
Kreia
User avatar
brianeyci
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9815
Joined: 2004-09-26 05:36pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Post by brianeyci »

Instead of remove grinding, keep it there for people who want it, but don't make it necessary.

Honestly all these problems you people seem to have are solved largely by Guild Wars and other MMO's. They exist but they might not have as much exposure as WoW.

The last time someone did a thread like this all the heavy hitters weighed in and Tuxedo had the best suggestion, an MMO that broke the traditional model and had short player lifespans. It's been done, been talked about, I'm sure everybody has ideas but they're not new and a lot of games already deal with your gripes.
User avatar
Teleros
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 2006-03-31 02:11pm
Location: Ultra Prime, Klovia
Contact:

Post by Teleros »

lPeregrine wrote:Replace it with PvP. Make it easy to finance PvP, so you don't HAVE to grind for hours at a time to get your herbs. This balances out the high-stakes PvP, it's easy to lose everything, but it's not too hard to get it back.
You still get the PvP grinding though - if I'm good enough I can kill, send to an alt character, and repeat. Buy new stuff on said alt (who is never on for more than 5 mins and spends his life between the mailbox and auction house / wherever), and send to main when needed. Result: overpowered characters in PvP.
lPeregrine wrote:Replace NPC content with player content. Battles in WoW don't matter, because the boss just respawns. Battles in EVE matter because the enemy fleet is a PLAYER fleet, and if you kill it you can take over their territory (and they can rebuild and make a counter-attack, etc). You get the same dramatic events, but without the artificial respawning.
Actually, there's a good reason WoW battles don't matter: there would only be one side by the end - on almost all servers the Alliance massively outnumbers the Horde, and it'd be very easy to take and hold places. If you've been playing TBC, take a trip to Nagrand and watch what happens when the Horde attack Halaa. It's not "OMG they're attacking!" it's "should we LET THEM take it this time?" :lol: .
lPeregrine wrote:The effort is near-zero, once the basic gameplay mechanics are done. That's the nice thing about player-driven content. Not only is it more enjoyable, but the players do most of the work themselves.
Assuming it's all PvP-based, true. I was assuming there'd still be the sort of raid bosses etc found in WoW, but if not (or the chances of taking them out are minute) then NP.
lPeregrine wrote:It's unrealistic and frustrating, especially if you want to play an 'evil' character. If you don't want to get ganked, learn to defend yourself instead of expecting the GMs to hold your hand and protect you.
If only it were that simple. WoW is based around group balance rather than 1-on-1 balance - try being a cloth-wearer ambushed in the middle of nowhere by a rogue. Or better yet, ambushed whilst fighting NPCs by a higher level enemy. And then corpse camped.
Some people simply don't want that, hence the existence of PvE realms. And judging by the economics, it pays to please the PvE crowd: there are 34 PvE English-speaking EU realms in WoW, and 62 PvP ones (excluding RP variations) - why would any company want to alienate 1/3 of their potential market?
lPeregrine wrote:Those character backups only cover your skill points. Your actual ship and items are permanently destroyed (except for what survives to be deleted). I didn't say permanent character death should be added (that would be frustrating and lame), just that PvP should have real risks.
Fair enough.
lPeregrine wrote:Sucks to be you. Don't get killed then. That's the risk of engaging in PvP, you might not win.
Think about it though. If I play Alterac Valley as it is now, yes I might not win, but there's still a chance that I will. We can also run around grabbing towers, graveyards and such, pissing off the other side in our base and so on.
Under your system, it'll be a straight zerg to the other side's leader, and the fastest side wins (fair enough), or half a dozen survivors on either side hoping enough new people join soon enough that they can try a zerg before the other side. Forget towers, graveyards and such - it'll take too long and you might die doing it.
lPeregrine wrote:Well, for one thing, there shouldn't be special battlegrounds for PvP, the entire server should be the battleground. But in groups, you either trust your guild-mates to be fair with the loot, or you backstab them and whoever has the biggest guns gets the loot.
And the random people you just happen to stumble across and help? It's bad enough in WoW with loot ninjas - with a group of non-guildies I can see this system being... well vicious and unrewarding.
lPeregrine wrote:Every single scam you can think of is legal in EVE. Spying, corporation theft (get into a corp, loot their assets, kill them all, and harvest their corpses), scamming (with any and all lying and general dishonesty allowed), etc. Try that in WoW, and you'd be banned.
Nah, in WoW they just tend to stop you doing it in the first place, although auction house scamming etc is very common (good luck getting a Super Mana Potion for a reasonable price ;) ). Spying is kinda hard to do given that it's much less PvP-orientated and the stakes are lower, and corporation theft is almost impossible unless you can persuade the guild bank player to post you stuff or get their account hacked etc (which is not quite the same as theft in EVE XD ).
lPeregrine wrote:Then redesign the skill system. This isn't impossible, EVE has done it just fine. Get used to the fact that WoW has crippling flaws, and should probably just be scrapped and re-done from the beginning.
i) You still haven't said why I should get say reputation for being offline (although I do like the idea given the amount of rep grinding I do lol), nor explained how I'm supposed to skill up something like alchemy without my character automatically buying mats (hell no!), making them from nothing (so why buy mats until at top skill level :P ?), or similar. Weapon skills etc can be easily done I grant you, but not professions.
ii) 8.5+ million subscribers to WoW seem to disagree over its crippling flaws :P . Sure there are problems but it's done FAR better than EVE has in terms of popularity (only 175,000 including active trial accounts), which has to say something for it. Granted you can argue that EVE always was for a niche market, but WoW never was and has become the biggest success story in the MMORPG market.
lPeregrine wrote:And notice the problem here: with farming, you get massive time demands. Success should be about skills and tactics, not who can give up more of the real-world to play obsessively.
Which is what I was saying re the PvP part - in your proposed MMORPG it sounds like there'd be so little PvE activity that that part of what I was saying would be pretty much irrelevant.
lPeregrine wrote:But the more appropriate question is "why shouldn't I be able to get the same enjoyment out of the game as you do?" I pay the same $15 a month for the game. And most people just don't have the time to play a game that much, we have jobs, school, social lives, families, etc. So we literally can't match the most dedicated players... and if we can't, why bother playing at all?
i) I don't buy the "if I pay same amount too" argument. If you're willing to pay $15 a month for WoW then what's the matter? Blizzard offered you a product, and you accepted it. Whether you play WoW much during that time is another matter entirely (either you choose to pay knowing you won't be on as much as me, or you choose to pay and later make the choice to play less: worse case scenario you decide it's not worth it and do not renew the subscription).
ii) Who says you're not getting as much enjoyment out of it as me? For all the grinding in it, WoW (especially now that TBC is out) doesn't take much to get access to say heroic mode dungeons, and even raiding for the Tier 4 gear is possible with casual players if they can get on at the right time (although it's harder with Tier 5 etc as it requires you have Tier 4, which means regular runs for Tier 4 first etc). And the new PvP arena system makes it fairly easy to get good gear and play in good matches if you have the skill - as opposed to the old PvP ranks that required about 3 months of constant gaming to climb up (only got to Lt-Cmdr before the ranks were abolished, and even that was a pain).
iii) Also, don't forget a lot of the hardcore gaming is less about enjoyment than it is completing things for the sake of it. A Winterspring Frostsabre mount is totally useless but the ultimate symbol of dedicated PvE grinding, as are the repeat runs to such-and-such a dungeon to get that one particular recipe you need to have every last tailoring profession. Or trying for a world first against a particular boss in the latest dungeon.
lPeregrine wrote:It's not like playing the game for massive amounts of time actually takes any great skill. It's just a matter of stubborn dedication and giving up everything else in life.
Of course not, but if you're prepared to do that, surely some compensation is in order? And if so, in-game compensation seems the most logical step.
User avatar
Rye
To Mega Therion
Posts: 12493
Joined: 2003-03-08 07:48am
Location: Uighur, please!

Post by Rye »

I was thinking about how to make a mmorpg for 40k, like they're apparently doing and thought about a lot of this stuff.

I think the way forward for the 40k-set one would be to make it more like an FPS for the main action aspects of the game, something like BF2 where the focus is on larger scale battles with vehicles and such. Put all this in a larger world like WoW's where it's all connected and accomplishing the UT assault-like quests (take down air defence so you can get into chaos cities, if you're a chaos cultist, you can assassinate important imperium npcs and the like, hope the local guard players and police npcs don't see you, etc) shifts the battle in your favour until your faction totally dominates the different map areas. Make "alliance territory" more dynamic, shifting and flowing with the successes and failures of the large, multi-person quests on the battlefields. All of which affects how many respawns your side has.

Of course, there'd still be lots of environmental hazards, the opportunity to summon gigantic demons (or become them), and rain all sorts of pretty catastrophe down on the opponents.

Also, have individual maps per server, treat them as different planets.

Well, those were some ideas I've been running around my head, anyway.
EBC|Fucking Metal|Artist|Androgynous Sexfiend|Gozer Kvltist|
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus
User avatar
lPeregrine
Jedi Knight
Posts: 673
Joined: 2005-01-08 01:10am

Post by lPeregrine »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:If you are going to allow people to loot you upon defeat, I will assure you that game play in certain areas will be extremely limited in certain areas. How you would expect a Lvl 30 character or less to do any questing with Lvl 60 school bullies running around ganking people for the sheer fun of it is quite beyond me. I have played WoW once and frankly some people make it their business to deny anyone any peace.
Easy: fix the game balance so extra character levels don't give such a one-sided advantage. A higher level character should have an advantage, but it should be possible to win through superior tactics... or just bringing another level 30 friend.
User avatar
Mr Bean
Lord of Irony
Posts: 22464
Joined: 2002-07-04 08:36am

Post by Mr Bean »

You want to know why Planetside failed?

I can tell you why in two reasons.

One @#$@$ Lag!
Explains itself pure simple, big battles became slideshow affairs. Even Battlefield 1942 had better net coding than the initial crapjob that Planet side had.

Two You can not defeat my mighty skintanium armor!
Combine bad net code with crazy amounts of hit points even of the least unarmored soldier. Taking the idea of heavies, mediums and lights taken from Tribes series.

Now make even the lightest of light unarmored soldier, able to take multiple rockets to the face before going down.

And you set up the circumstances for a very hard and very boring fights. Where even the weakest of soldiers can take any amount of hand held weapons for a brief time. Hell even a light could survive being run down by a tank.

What this meant in game play terms is that your average firefight in Planetside lasted at LEAST six seconds. And six seconds even if you should there and took it from the other fellow. Meanwhile if you were acutely trying, you could be circle strafing for upwards of a full half minute per enemy. A heavy VS Heavy fight often lasted a full minute or more.

And of course that did not mean that Planetside was not a FPS, no more that Warcraft three was an FPS. Turned based in all but name, sure you could acutaly dodge, but just sitting there and outaiming the other fellow worked nine times out of ten.

Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, Red O, or Farcry it was not. Death was not quick but slow.

"A cult is a religion with no political power." -Tom Wolfe
Pardon me for sounding like a dick, but I'm playing the tiniest violin in the world right now-Dalton
User avatar
SAMAS
Mecha Fanboy
Posts: 4078
Joined: 2002-10-20 09:10pm

Post by SAMAS »

I just thought of something.

lPeregrine mentioned an off-line training in EVE Online. I don't know what that entails in the game, but it gave me an idea.

You know how people tend to make bots for things like fishing and gold farming? What if the game actually had bots for certain mundane, but somewhat vital tasks built in? Before logging off, you could set your character to fish or cut or mine or trap pelts for a certain period of time, then when you got back, you could devote your time to actually working with what you had gained, or adventuring, or the other fun stuff that's supposed to be in the game.
Image
Not an armored Jigglypuff

"I salute your genetic superiority, now Get off my planet!!" -- Adam Stiener, 1st Somerset Strikers
User avatar
Teleros
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 2006-03-31 02:11pm
Location: Ultra Prime, Klovia
Contact:

Post by Teleros »

Certainly be a nice idea, although I'd recommend keeping the automated characters out of the actual game world (getting killed, distracted, people sending you a PM...). It might also be more difficult if certain items are required for the farming (eg you MUST have fishing lures to catch certain fish in WoW, yet these cost money and only last for X minutes, so the bot has to get enough in advance etc, or at least bill your character for the amount :P ). Still, if it worked it'd be a very handy addition to the game (hell, might even encourage me to spend less time on it XD ).
User avatar
lPeregrine
Jedi Knight
Posts: 673
Joined: 2005-01-08 01:10am

Post by lPeregrine »

Teleros wrote:
lPeregrine wrote:Replace it with PvP. Make it easy to finance PvP, so you don't HAVE to grind for hours at a time to get your herbs. This balances out the high-stakes PvP, it's easy to lose everything, but it's not too hard to get it back.
You still get the PvP grinding though - if I'm good enough I can kill, send to an alt character, and repeat. Buy new stuff on said alt (who is never on for more than 5 mins and spends his life between the mailbox and auction house / wherever), and send to main when needed. Result: overpowered characters in PvP.
Except what would be the purpose of grinding constantly? If you're spending all your time NPC-ing, you're not fighting in PvP, and you don't really have any losses to cover. Sure, you might be able to brag about your huge bank account, but it doesn't give you any practical advantage.
lPeregrine wrote:Replace NPC content with player content. Battles in WoW don't matter, because the boss just respawns. Battles in EVE matter because the enemy fleet is a PLAYER fleet, and if you kill it you can take over their territory (and they can rebuild and make a counter-attack, etc). You get the same dramatic events, but without the artificial respawning.
Actually, there's a good reason WoW battles don't matter: there would only be one side by the end - on almost all servers the Alliance massively outnumbers the Horde, and it'd be very easy to take and hold places. If you've been playing TBC, take a trip to Nagrand and watch what happens when the Horde attack Halaa. It's not "OMG they're attacking!" it's "should we LET THEM take it this time?" :lol: .
Again, this is the problem you get when you try to substitute game mechanics for player-driven content. Compare this to EVE, where player races are mostly irrelevant to everyone but the roleplaying groups, and it's the PLAYER organizations and loyalties that matter. Remove the focus on artificial NPC storylines, and the problem goes away. If a player group gets that dominating, they deserve it for all their hard work and organization... but they'll probably break up and turn on each other to get some action.

lPeregrine wrote:It's unrealistic and frustrating, especially if you want to play an 'evil' character. If you don't want to get ganked, learn to defend yourself instead of expecting the GMs to hold your hand and protect you.
If only it were that simple. WoW is based around group balance rather than 1-on-1 balance - try being a cloth-wearer ambushed in the middle of nowhere by a rogue. Or better yet, ambushed whilst fighting NPCs by a higher level enemy. And then corpse camped.
Don't play solo then. It's a multiplayer game for a reason.

But really, it's more of a problem with arbitrary class systems. With a freeform character system like EVE, Morrowind, etc, there's nothing to stop your mage from putting on full plate and tanking the rogue while you turn it into a little pile of ash.
Some people simply don't want that, hence the existence of PvE realms. And judging by the economics, it pays to please the PvE crowd: there are 34 PvE English-speaking EU realms in WoW, and 62 PvP ones (excluding RP variations) - why would any company want to alienate 1/3 of their potential market?
Developer greed doesn't mean the game is good. Yes, you might appeal to more people, but at the expense of the individual enjoyment of each of those groups. The player's best interest is many MMORPGs and the ability to pick which one is right for them. Sadly, we're screwed by the developers best interest of mediocre mass-appeal games with high profit margins.

lPeregrine wrote:Sucks to be you. Don't get killed then. That's the risk of engaging in PvP, you might not win.
Think about it though. If I play Alterac Valley as it is now, yes I might not win, but there's still a chance that I will. We can also run around grabbing towers, graveyards and such, pissing off the other side in our base and so on.
Under your system, it'll be a straight zerg to the other side's leader, and the fastest side wins (fair enough), or half a dozen survivors on either side hoping enough new people join soon enough that they can try a zerg before the other side. Forget towers, graveyards and such - it'll take too long and you might die doing it.
That's a simple design problem. Of course WoW's PvP arenas wouldn't work, they're based around a respawn system. It would be trivially easy to re-balance them to work with a real death penalty. And in that case, your zerg rush would run into the natural advantages of the defending side, and be defeated easily.

Of course there shouldn't be artificial battlegrounds anyway, the objective of PvP should be determined by the players involved. Remove the artificial quest-style rules, and you don't have this problem.
lPeregrine wrote:Well, for one thing, there shouldn't be special battlegrounds for PvP, the entire server should be the battleground. But in groups, you either trust your guild-mates to be fair with the loot, or you backstab them and whoever has the biggest guns gets the loot.
And the random people you just happen to stumble across and help? It's bad enough in WoW with loot ninjas - with a group of non-guildies I can see this system being... well vicious and unrewarding.
It's supposed to be vicious. If you want a share of the loot, PvP with people you trust. Or just kill anyone that stands between you and your loot, it's up to you. The exact same system I'm talking about works just fine in EVE.

lPeregrine wrote:Then redesign the skill system. This isn't impossible, EVE has done it just fine. Get used to the fact that WoW has crippling flaws, and should probably just be scrapped and re-done from the beginning.
i) You still haven't said why I should get say reputation for being offline (although I do like the idea given the amount of rep grinding I do lol), nor explained how I'm supposed to skill up something like alchemy without my character automatically buying mats (hell no!), making them from nothing (so why buy mats until at top skill level :P ?), or similar. Weapon skills etc can be easily done I grant you, but not professions.
NPC faction standings should be a trivial curiousity, not a defining feature. The important standings should be your PLAYER faction standings, and those can only be earned by trust and interaction with other players, not through game rules.

And yes, it would require changes in the crafting system, but that's the problem with WoW's poor game design. It's not an inherent limitation of MMORPGs, EVE has no problem having both player-run industry and offline skill training.
ii) 8.5+ million subscribers to WoW seem to disagree over its crippling flaws :P . Sure there are problems but it's done FAR better than EVE has in terms of popularity (only 175,000 including active trial accounts), which has to say something for it. Granted you can argue that EVE always was for a niche market, but WoW never was and has become the biggest success story in the MMORPG market.
Blizzard fanboys are idiots. And now the fanboy base reached critical mass, where any potential new MMORPG player has a dozen friends telling him to play WoW. That just means it has inertia, not good game design.
lPeregrine wrote:But the more appropriate question is "why shouldn't I be able to get the same enjoyment out of the game as you do?" I pay the same $15 a month for the game. And most people just don't have the time to play a game that much, we have jobs, school, social lives, families, etc. So we literally can't match the most dedicated players... and if we can't, why bother playing at all?
i) I don't buy the "if I pay same amount too" argument. If you're willing to pay $15 a month for WoW then what's the matter? Blizzard offered you a product, and you accepted it. Whether you play WoW much during that time is another matter entirely (either you choose to pay knowing you won't be on as much as me, or you choose to pay and later make the choice to play less: worse case scenario you decide it's not worth it and do not renew the subscription).
Like I said, most people have real lives and can't play MMORPGs all day (if they even wanted to). If I have to give up on the rest of my life to get anywhere, I'm not giving them my money, period. Should people like me be ignored as potential players? Obviously I have the choice not to play, but it's incredibly stupid for a game developer to turn away paying customers in favor of a minority of obsessive players. Here's a hint: Blizzard would get more profit from having two people like me than just you.

If MMORPGs are ever going to grow, they're going to need to branch out and invite a broader customer base. And that means removing the absurd time demands and allowing people with lives outside of the game to be successful.

ii) Who says you're not getting as much enjoyment out of it as me? For all the grinding in it, WoW (especially now that TBC is out) doesn't take much to get access to say heroic mode dungeons, and even raiding for the Tier 4 gear is possible with casual players if they can get on at the right time (although it's harder with Tier 5 etc as it requires you have Tier 4, which means regular runs for Tier 4 first etc). And the new PvP arena system makes it fairly easy to get good gear and play in good matches if you have the skill - as opposed to the old PvP ranks that required about 3 months of constant gaming to climb up (only got to Lt-Cmdr before the ranks were abolished, and even that was a pain).
So essentially I can do almost as well as you, but I'm still always going to be a second-class player. This is NOT good game design, I shouldn't be blocked out of the endgame content just because I want to have a social life outside of the game.

And the idea that lower-tiers are good enough is a joke. In a fight between two equal-level (and equal player skill) characters in WoW, the one with the best gear wins 95% of the time. Sorry, but I'm not paying $15 a month so you can have a better kill record.
iii) Also, don't forget a lot of the hardcore gaming is less about enjoyment than it is completing things for the sake of it. A Winterspring Frostsabre mount is totally useless but the ultimate symbol of dedicated PvE grinding, as are the repeat runs to such-and-such a dungeon to get that one particular recipe you need to have every last tailoring profession. Or trying for a world first against a particular boss in the latest dungeon.
So? Why should that sense of pride and bragging rights be based only on how many hours you play the game? Rewards should be given for good tacitcs, player skills, etc, not for stubbornly playing the game for more hours than anyone else. That guy with the elite mount isn't a better player than everyone else, he just has more hours in the day available.
lPeregrine wrote:It's not like playing the game for massive amounts of time actually takes any great skill. It's just a matter of stubborn dedication and giving up everything else in life.
Of course not, but if you're prepared to do that, surely some compensation is in order? And if so, in-game compensation seems the most logical step.
No, you aren't owed any compensation. Get out of the house, get a job, get a social life, and stop playing WoW all day. If you're playing a game to the point where you could claim to deserve rewards for your time investment, you have a serious addiction problem.
User avatar
lPeregrine
Jedi Knight
Posts: 673
Joined: 2005-01-08 01:10am

Post by lPeregrine »

SAMAS wrote:I just thought of something.

lPeregrine mentioned an off-line training in EVE Online. I don't know what that entails in the game, but it gave me an idea.
Skills in EVE train in a set amount of real-world time (based on your character's attributes, you'll train some skills better than others). This is a fixed value, it takes the same time no matter what you do. Grind NPCs, PvP, sit in station in chat, even log off and go on vacation for the weekend, and it'll still be done at the same time. So you're playing when and how you want, instead of being forced to grind the most efficient and boring way.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Aside from some points, the first and major point of an MMO should be this.

Is it a PvE or PvP MMO?

If it's PvE, make it just that, no PvP whatsoever.

If it's PvP, make it just that, no grinding, no pointless raids, just get very easy to make level 10-20-30-40-whatever, and make skill matter, not whether or not you have the Sword of thousand truths.

The biggest problem is they don't know what the fucking core of their game is and then after shit gets overpowered they nerf it into non existence because they are reactive fuckwits.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Post Reply