Ethical to bar creationist pseudo-scientists from science?

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

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Ethical to bar creationist pseudo-scientists from science?

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Believing Scripture but Playing by Science’s Rules

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By CORNELIA DEAN
Published: February 12, 2007

KINGSTON, R.I. — There is nothing much unusual about the 197-page dissertation Marcus R. Ross submitted in December to complete his doctoral degree in geosciences here at the University of Rhode Island.
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Can a scientist produce intellectually honest work that contradicts deeply held religious beliefs?

His subject was the abundance and spread of mosasaurs, marine reptiles that, as he wrote, vanished at the end of the Cretaceous era about 65 million years ago. The work is “impeccable,” said David E. Fasto

vsky, a paleontologist and professor of geosciences at the university who was Dr. Ross’s dissertation adviser. “He was working within a strictly scientific framework, a conventional scientific framework.”

But Dr. Ross is hardly a conventional paleontologist. He is a “young earth creationist” — he believes that the Bible is a literally true account of the creation of the universe, and that the earth is at most 10,000 years old.

For him, Dr. Ross said, the methods and theories of paleontology are one “paradigm” for studying the past, and Scripture is another. In the paleontological paradigm, he said, the dates in his dissertation are entirely appropriate. The fact that as a young earth creationist he has a different view just means, he said, “that I am separating the different paradigms.”

He likened his situation to that of a socialist studying economics in a department with a supply-side bent. “People hold all sorts of opinions different from the department in which they graduate,” he said. “What’s that to anybody else?”

But not everyone is happy with that approach. “People go somewhat bananas when they hear about this,” said Jon C. Boothroyd, a professor of geosciences at Rhode Island.

In theory, scientists look to nature for answers to questions about nature, and test those answers with experiment and observation. For Biblical literalists, Scripture is the final authority. As a creationist raised in an evangelical household and a paleontologist who said he was “just captivated” as a child by dinosaurs and fossils, Dr. Ross embodies conflicts between these two approaches. The conflicts arise often these days, particularly as people debate the teaching of evolution.

And, for some, his case raises thorny philosophical and practical questions. May a secular university deny otherwise qualified students a degree because of their religion? Can a student produce intellectually honest work that contradicts deeply held beliefs? Should it be obligatory (or forbidden) for universities to consider how students will use the degrees they earn?

Those are “darned near imponderable issues,” said John W. Geissman, who has considered them as a professor of earth and planetary sciences at the University of New Mexico. For example, Dr. Geissman said, Los Alamos National Laboratory has a geophysicist on staff, John R. Baumgardner, who is an authority on the earth’s mantle — and also a young earth creationist.

If researchers like Dr. Baumgardner do their work “without any form of interjection of personal dogma,” Dr. Geissman said, “I would have to keep as objective a hat on as possible and say, ‘O.K., you earned what you earned.’ ”

Others say the crucial issue is not whether Dr. Ross deserved his degree but how he intends to use it.

In a telephone interview, Dr. Ross said his goal in studying at secular institutions “was to acquire the training that would make me a good paleontologist, regardless of which paradigm I was using.”

Today he teaches earth science at Liberty University, the conservative Christian institution founded by the Rev. Jerry Falwell where, Dr. Ross said, he uses a conventional scientific text.

“We also discuss the intersection of those sorts of ideas with Christianity,” he said. “I don’t require my students to say or write their assent to one idea or another any more than I was required.”

But he has also written and spoken on scientific subjects, and with a creationist bent. While still a graduate student, he appeared on a DVD arguing that intelligent design, an ideological cousin of creationism, is a better explanation than evolution for the Cambrian explosion, a rapid diversification of animal life that occurred about 500 million years ago.

Online information about the DVD identifies Dr. Ross as “pursuing a Ph.D. in geosciences” at the University of Rhode Island. It is this use of a secular credential to support creationist views that worries many scientists.

Eugenie C. Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, a private group on the front line of the battle for the teaching of evolution, said fundamentalists who capitalized on secular credentials “to miseducate the public” were doing a disservice.

Michael L. Dini, a professor of biology education at Texas Tech University, goes even further. In 2003, he was threatened with a federal investigation when students complained that he would not write letters of recommendation for graduate study for anyone who would not offer “a scientific answer” to questions about how the human species originated.

Nothing came of it, Dr. Dini said in an interview, adding, “Scientists do not base their acceptance or rejection of theories on religion, and someone who does should not be able to become a scientist.”

A somewhat more complicated issue arose last year at Ohio State University, where Bryan Leonard, a high school science teacher working toward a doctorate in education, was preparing to defend his dissertation on the pedagogical usefulness of teaching alternatives to the theory of evolution.

Earle M. Holland, a spokesman for the university, said Mr. Leonard and his adviser canceled the defense when questions arose about the composition of the faculty committee that would hear it.

Meanwhile three faculty members had written the university administration, arguing that Mr. Leonard’s project violated the university’s research standards in that the students involved were being subjected to something harmful (the idea that there were scientific alternatives to the theory of evolution) without receiving any benefit.

Citing privacy rules, Mr. Holland would not discuss the case in detail, beyond saying that Mr. Leonard was still enrolled in the graduate program. But Mr. Leonard has become a hero to people who believe that creationists are unfairly treated by secular institutions.

Perhaps the most famous creationist wearing the secular mantle of science is Kurt P. Wise, who earned his doctorate at Harvard in 1989 under the guidance of the paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould, a leading theorist of evolution who died in 2002.

Dr. Wise, who teaches at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., wrote his dissertation on gaps in the fossil record. But rather than suggest, as many creationists do, that the gaps challenge the wisdom of Darwin’s theory, Dr. Wise described a statistical approach that would allow paleontologists to infer when a given species was present on earth, millions of years ago, even if the fossil evidence was incomplete.

Dr. Wise, who declined to comment for this article, is a major figure in creationist circles today, and his Gould connection appears prominently on his book jackets and elsewhere.

“He is lionized,” Dr. Scott said. “He is the young earth creationist with a degree from Harvard.”

As for Dr. Ross, “he does good science, great science,” said Dr. Boothroyd, who taught him in a class in glacial geology. But in talks and other appearances, Dr. Boothroyd went on, Dr. Ross is already using “the fact that he has a Ph.D. from a legitimate science department as a springboard.”

Dr. Ross, 30, grew up in Rhode Island in an evangelical Christian family. He attended Pennsylvania State University and then the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology, where he wrote his master’s thesis on marine fossils found in the state.

His creationism aroused “some concern by faculty members there, and disagreements,” he recalled, and there were those who argued that his religious beliefs should bar him from earning an advanced degree in paleontology.

“But in the end I had a decent thesis project and some people who, like the people at U.R.I., were kind to me, and I ended up going through,” Dr. Ross said.

Dr. Fastovsky and other members of the Rhode Island faculty said they knew about these disagreements, but admitted him anyway. Dr. Boothroyd, who was among those who considered the application, said they judged Dr. Ross on his academic record, his test scores and his master’s thesis, “and we said, ‘O.K., we can do this.’ ”

He added, “We did not know nearly as much about creationism and young earth and intelligent design as we do now.”

For his part, Dr. Ross says, “Dr. Fastovsky was liberal in the most generous and important sense of the term.”

He would not say whether he shared the view of some young earth creationists that flaws in paleontological dating techniques erroneously suggest that the fossils are far older than they really are.

Asked whether it was intellectually honest to write a dissertation so at odds with his religious views, he said: “I was working within a particular paradigm of earth history. I accepted that philosophy of science for the purpose of working with the people” at Rhode Island.

And though his dissertation repeatedly described events as occurring tens of millions of years ago, Dr. Ross added, “I did not imply or deny any endorsement of the dates.”

Dr. Fastovsky said he had talked to Dr. Ross “lots of times” about his religious beliefs, but that depriving him of his doctorate because of them would be nothing more than religious discrimination. “We are not here to certify his religious beliefs,” he said. “All I can tell you is he came here and did science that was completely defensible.”

Steven B. Case, a research professor at the Center for Research Learning at the University of Kansas, said it would be wrong to “censor someone for a belief system as long as it does not affect their work. Science is an open enterprise to anyone who practices it.”

Dr. Case, who champions the teaching of evolution, heads the committee writing state science standards in Kansas, a state particularly racked by challenges to Darwin. Even so, he said it would be frightening if universities began “enforcing some sort of belief system on their graduate students.”

But Dr. Scott, a former professor of physical anthropology at the University of Colorado, said in an interview that graduate admissions committees were entitled to consider the difficulties that would arise from admitting a doctoral candidate with views “so at variance with what we consider standard science.” She said such students “would require so much remedial instruction it would not be worth my time.”

That is not religious discrimination, she added, it is discrimination “on the basis of science.”

Dr. Dini, of Texas Tech, agreed. Scientists “ought to make certain the people they are conferring advanced degrees on understand the philosophy of science and are indeed philosophers of science,” he said. “That’s what Ph.D. stands for.”
I absolutely do not understand how one could be a paleontologist and still be a young earth creationist. They've seen the evidence, they've done the tests. Do they just simply throw all of that out when religion comes into play? "I'm a chemist but I ultimately don't believe in atomic theory because my religions says so. I'm an astrologer but I don't believe in gravity even though I've seen the data and done the necessary tests to confirm it."

And I love the quip about how the biologist would only write letters of recommendation for people who could give a scientific explanation for how humans came to be! I don't really see what the problem is with asking if people can offer a scientific answer to how certain mechanisms work, be it evolution or thermodynamics or various reaction pathways, as a qualifier for entering graduate schools. Its no different than a job interview.

And Dr. Dini is absolutely correct in saying that advance science degrees should only be conferred to people who understand and are practitioners of science.
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Post by B5B7 »

We have a similar case with Dr Andrew Snelling, an Australian geologist who simultaneously had published geological papers based on old Earth, and YEC writings.
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Post by Darth Wong »

I can understand completely why scientists would be uncomfortable with graduating a student who is capable of submitting papers that he does not actually believe to be accurate. That's what's happening here; the student believes old-Earth geology to be false, yet he submits old-Earth geology papers because young-Earth creationism is totally bogus science.

Is it really so hard to come out and say that science, while it lacks the heavily developed ethics codes of medicine or engineering, still has some ethics, and one of them is that you can't graduate scientists who are willing to publish papers that they don't actually believe to be accurate?
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Darth Wong wrote:I can understand completely why scientists would be uncomfortable with graduating a student who is capable of submitting papers that he does not actually believe to be accurate. That's what's happening here; the student believes old-Earth geology to be false, yet he submits old-Earth geology papers because young-Earth creationism is totally bogus science.

Is it really so hard to come out and say that science, while it lacks the heavily developed ethics codes of medicine or engineering, still has some ethics, and one of them is that you can't graduate scientists who are willing to publish papers that they don't actually believe to be accurate?
Aside from anything else a geology student who rejects old Earth is basically reject ALL of established geology, and showing a complete lack of understanding of any of the principles or practices of the discipline. It is no exageration to say that most geology soundly disproves YEC. I could take you to some rocks 20 min drive away which with a few simple, common sense explanations show how they demonstrate the impossibility of YEC. Any student who believes in YEC in the process has to reject the three well established and most tested principles ad theories of geology. 1) Plate Tectonics. 2) the Principle of Uniformitatianism and 3) the Principle of Superposition. Quite simply as person who rejects the entire field "geology" should not be able to graduate as a "geologist".
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I absolutely do not understand how one could be a paleontologist and still be a young earth creationist.
Although this might seem conspiratorial, it would be sooo easy to flaunt "I got a degree from Harvard, how can I be wrong?" when preaching about Creationism.
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Post by Ariphaos »

At my university there was a creationist getting his masters in geology there. None of the rest of my rock-licking friends were quite sure how, he was quite intelligent. But also very... clouded.

I do imagine that some people do it for profit, however.
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However, let's for the sake of the argument say that he do brilliant work, and passes everything with flying colours. There are no rules there that says that he have to believe in what he says.

Yes, I do realize that it's different from humanorian[sp?] degrees, because hard science doesn't deal with meanings the same way theology, for example, does.

But how can they bar him if he passes?
As for what I think, I don't really know.
On one hand, not believing in what he studies seems like, well bullshit, but on the other hand, he doesn understands the theorems behind it...

Nice find though. :)
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Post by Big Phil »

I'd say a YEC who does the coursework should absolutely earn the degree; whether you listen to the cretin's BS afterwards is a different issue.

Flip it around - would you bar an atheist from receiving a theology degree?
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SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'd say a YEC who does the coursework should absolutely earn the degree; whether you listen to the cretin's BS afterwards is a different issue.

Flip it around - would you bar an atheist from receiving a theology degree?
I'd rather think of it this way, would you want someone to be given a medical degree, when they believe that leeches are the best way to cure all diseases?

Or and engineer who believes that faith in God keeps brigdes and buildings from collapsing?

A science degree is a qualification. Being given a science/geology degree states that the person has shown sufficient competance, and understanding of that particular field of knowledge. If someone goes through the motons of a degree and can't even understand the basic tenents, and rejects EVERYTHING in it, why should they be given that qualification, just because they are good at lying? The qualification is about understanding, not the ability to lie.

As I said before in order to accept YEC you basically have to reject all of geology, the entire fucking science. I don't see why anyone who does that should be able to claim they are qualified as a geologist.
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Mr Flibble wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'd say a YEC who does the coursework should absolutely earn the degree; whether you listen to the cretin's BS afterwards is a different issue.

Flip it around - would you bar an atheist from receiving a theology degree?
I'd rather think of it this way, would you want someone to be given a medical degree, when they believe that leeches are the best way to cure all diseases?

Or and engineer who believes that faith in God keeps brigdes and buildings from collapsing?

A science degree is a qualification. Being given a science/geology degree states that the person has shown sufficient competance, and understanding of that particular field of knowledge. If someone goes through the motons of a degree and can't even understand the basic tenents, and rejects EVERYTHING in it, why should they be given that qualification, just because they are good at lying? The qualification is about understanding, not the ability to lie.

As I said before in order to accept YEC you basically have to reject all of geology, the entire fucking science. I don't see why anyone who does that should be able to claim they are qualified as a geologist.
If people start giving real jobs to a doctor who prescribes leeches instead of penicillin or an engineer who won't using engineering principles to design bridges, then we have a problem. An engineer or doctor who won't do his job, however, won't be employed for very long.

There are plenty of scientists who believe in god even though they can't prove god's existence, and yet a huge stink isn't being raised about them. Is the problem here how blatantly idiotic these guys are, or simply that they believe in god or YEC?
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SancheztheWhaler wrote:If people start giving real jobs to a doctor who prescribes leeches instead of penicillin or an engineer who won't using engineering principles to design bridges, then we have a problem. An engineer or doctor who won't do his job, however, won't be employed for very long.

There are plenty of scientists who believe in god even though they can't prove god's existence, and yet a huge stink isn't being raised about them. Is the problem here how blatantly idiotic these guys are, or simply that they believe in god or YEC?
It is because the believe in YEC, which as I keep saying is an utter rejection of the entire field of geology. Pretty much all rock formations on this planet have things in them that are observable that disprove YEC, and any QUALIFIED geologist should be able to identify these features, and UNDERSTAND their implications. If they accept YEC it implies that they don't understand what they are writing about, even if they can write it.

The stink is that in order to believe YEC you basically have to rejct first year geology concepts, and it shows a total lack of understanding of the implications of many geological observations, that even laymen can see when looking carefully, or have it pointed out to them. One of the first things that the 'first geologists' realised is that geological process take a lot of time, and that therefore the Earth must be old. There is a reason that the push for the Old Earth theory came from geology, and that reason is, that it all points to an old Earth.
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Mr Flibble wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:If people start giving real jobs to a doctor who prescribes leeches instead of penicillin or an engineer who won't using engineering principles to design bridges, then we have a problem. An engineer or doctor who won't do his job, however, won't be employed for very long.

There are plenty of scientists who believe in god even though they can't prove god's existence, and yet a huge stink isn't being raised about them. Is the problem here how blatantly idiotic these guys are, or simply that they believe in god or YEC?
It is because the believe in YEC, which as I keep saying is an utter rejection of the entire field of geology. Pretty much all rock formations on this planet have things in them that are observable that disprove YEC, and any QUALIFIED geologist should be able to identify these features, and UNDERSTAND their implications. If they accept YEC it implies that they don't understand what they are writing about, even if they can write it.

The stink is that in order to believe YEC you basically have to rejct first year geology concepts, and it shows a total lack of understanding of the implications of many geological observations, that even laymen can see when looking carefully, or have it pointed out to them. One of the first things that the 'first geologists' realised is that geological process take a lot of time, and that therefore the Earth must be old. There is a reason that the push for the Old Earth theory came from geology, and that reason is, that it all points to an old Earth.
What you're proposing is a test of people's beliefs rather than their ability to understand and master the material. To put it in another perspective, you are arguing because I believe economics is a bullshit field I should have been failed out of my classes, even though I thoroughly understood the material and passed with flying colors.
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Post by Mr Flibble »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:What you're proposing is a test of people's beliefs rather than their ability to understand and master the material. To put it in another perspective, you are arguing because I believe economics is a bullshit field I should have been failed out of my classes, even though I thoroughly understood the material and passed with flying colors.
No what I am saying, is that anyone who accepts YEC quite clearly does not UNDERSTAND geology at all period, and as such should not be able to qualfiy as such.

I'm not advocating their beliefs be tested. I am simply saying anyone who accepts YEC does not understand geology. What I would advocate is simply that universitys test geological understanding better, particularly of the basics, if they are letting people which such complete ignorance of the field as YECs through.

I will repeat again: IN order to accept YEC you have to reject pretty much everything in modern geological science, up to and including three of the most basic principles of the field, plate tectonics, the principle of superposition and the principle of uniformitarianism. Passing and qualifing someone who rejects these would be like passing a physicist who rejects the conservation of energy.
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Ghetto Edit: Or to put it in a simpler way, I would argue that anyone claiming to be a geologist who can't go to their nears rock outcrop and find in that outcrop evidence against YEC is not qualified to be a geologist.
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Mr Flibble wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:What you're proposing is a test of people's beliefs rather than their ability to understand and master the material. To put it in another perspective, you are arguing because I believe economics is a bullshit field I should have been failed out of my classes, even though I thoroughly understood the material and passed with flying colors.
No what I am saying, is that anyone who accepts YEC quite clearly does not UNDERSTAND geology at all period, and as such should not be able to qualfiy as such.

I'm not advocating their beliefs be tested. I am simply saying anyone who accepts YEC does not understand geology. What I would advocate is simply that universitys test geological understanding better, particularly of the basics, if they are letting people which such complete ignorance of the field as YECs through.

I will repeat again: IN order to accept YEC you have to reject pretty much everything in modern geological science, up to and including three of the most basic principles of the field, plate tectonics, the principle of superposition and the principle of uniformitarianism. Passing and qualifing someone who rejects these would be like passing a physicist who rejects the conservation of energy.
I'm going to quote something from the article:
His subject was the abundance and spread of mosasaurs, marine reptiles that, as he wrote, vanished at the end of the Cretaceous era about 65 million years ago. The work is “impeccable,” said David E. Fastovsky, a paleontologist and professor of geosciences at the university who was Dr. Ross’s dissertation adviser. “He was working within a strictly scientific framework, a conventional scientific framework.”
Either you're not being honest with yourself about testing beliefs, or you are having comprehension difficulties. The guy clearly does understand geology and geosciences; he simply doesn't believe what he's writing.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

Doublethink FTW. I did similar in highschool when I was a YEC
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Post by Spin Echo »

I really have to wonder about the motivation behind a young earth creationist to do a PhD in geosciences. A PhD is a lot of work and time. Why on earth would you put that much effort into something if you don't believe anything you're saying? Call me cynical, but it sounds like this guy is using the fact he has a Phd in geosciences to try and give validity to some of his YEC ideas:
As for Dr. Ross, “he does good science, great science,” said Dr. Boothroyd, who taught him in a class in glacial geology. But in talks and other appearances, Dr. Boothroyd went on, Dr. Ross is already using “the fact that he has a Ph.D. from a legitimate science department as a springboard.”
I can understand why people would be worried about granting a person with YEC views a paleontology degree. If they give someone a PhD and then that person then starts talking about how the earth is only 6000 years old, it reflects poorly upon the institution that granted the degree.

Personally, I find something repugnant about his mindset, the whole "I don't believe in the methodology or my findings but I'm still going to publish the work anyway". That just seems dishonest to me. If you do not believe your findings are valid, you should not be publishing them.
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Post by Mr Flibble »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm going to quote something from the article:
His subject was the abundance and spread of mosasaurs, marine reptiles that, as he wrote, vanished at the end of the Cretaceous era about 65 million years ago. The work is “impeccable,” said David E. Fastovsky, a paleontologist and professor of geosciences at the university who was Dr. Ross’s dissertation adviser. “He was working within a strictly scientific framework, a conventional scientific framework.”
Either you're not being honest with yourself about testing beliefs, or you are having comprehension difficulties. The guy clearly does understand geology and geosciences; he simply doesn't believe what he's writing.
No he does not. The ability to write a dissertation on the distribution of marine reptiles does not demonstrate the basic geological skill or being able to "read rocks". If he could "read rocks" he would surely have noticed during his study of the abundance and spread of mososaurs and other marine reptiles, that their fossils are found in certain strata of sedimentary rocks. These strata having being buried by sediment, thus enabling lithicification and subsequently brought to the surface by erosion and or uplift. If he was grounded in simply logic, he would relaise that these processes take a long time. He would have noticed that overlying these strata are strata showing different palaeo-environments, many more than can be crammed into the time requirements of YEC. Quite simply if he really did know and UNDERSTAND the basic priniples of geology, he would realise that YEC is full of shit.

If he didn't notice these features, then he is unqualified as a geologist, and that should have been detected in any field test, that any half decent geology department would have in their academic program. If he did notice the features in the rocks and yet still believes in YEC he is quite clearly an idiot and that should be detectable in his work without having to ask his beliefs.
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Post by Rye »

Going by the article, he would be able to respond to any geological situation with the right mindset, there's just a disconnect between that thinking and the illogical, emotional, presumably childhood-indoctrinated bible based bullshit part of his brain.

It'd be like a barber that can cut hair, treat it all properly, diagnose problems and so forth, but as a kid was taught that hair is actually made of spectral snakes. He'll just use his barber brain while at work and his retard brain when he's at home with his thoughts that he believes are truth.

I don't think that kind of schizophrenic approach to matters is anything but a timebomb, though.
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Post by Mr Flibble »

I should also add that paleontology is a bit of a gray area in the world of geosciences. It is possible to go into paleontology from via a biological pathway, rather than a geologial pathway, and it is possible that the people in these cases were offered their phds on the basis of undergraduate biological studies rather than geological studies and therefore may have prior to their phds had only limited geological training (this is certainly possible in Australian universities currently). The distributon of mososaurs for example would not require a particularly deep an understanding of geological principles. I would also note that all of the examples listed in the article are paleontologists.

I personally believe paleontologists require a greater grounding in basic geology than is currently standard (at least here in Australia, I would also argue the same for geophysicists). However that said it does depend what exactly they are specalising in, a paleontologist, could be specialised in looking at bone structures and determining function, in which case the would require very little geological understanding, on the other hand I would not call such a person a geoscientist.
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Post by Darth Wong »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:What you're proposing is a test of people's beliefs rather than their ability to understand and master the material. To put it in another perspective, you are arguing because I believe economics is a bullshit field I should have been failed out of my classes, even though I thoroughly understood the material and passed with flying colors.
You honestly see no ethical problem whatsoever with the idea of scientists who routinely submit work that they believe to be false? What the fuck kind of ethics would this person have? We're talking about professional ethics here, not religious ones.
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Post by Darth Servo »

SancheztheWhaler wrote:What you're proposing is a test of people's beliefs rather than their ability to understand and master the material. To put it in another perspective, you are arguing because I believe economics is a bullshit field I should have been failed out of my classes, even though I thoroughly understood the material and passed with flying colors.
Well, you sure as hell shouldn't go get a graduate degree in Econ, thats for sure, regardless of how well you understand the material.
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Post by CaptainChewbacca »

Mr Flibble wrote:A science degree is a qualification. Being given a science/geology degree states that the person has shown sufficient competance, and understanding of that particular field of knowledge. If someone goes through the motons of a degree and can't even understand the basic tenents, and rejects EVERYTHING in it, why should they be given that qualification, just because they are good at lying? The qualification is about understanding, not the ability to lie.

As I said before in order to accept YEC you basically have to reject all of geology, the entire fucking science. I don't see why anyone who does that should be able to claim they are qualified as a geologist.
First, I want to say I'm not a YEC. I'm a Christian, and I hold degrees in geology and hydrology. I also work as an environmental consultant and I can tell you that the origin of human life and the creation of the earth, as a theory, has no application to 99% of professional geology. To be a registered geologist (in california) you ahve to take a certification test where half of it is a sort of 'trivia' section, and then the other half is applied theory problem solving. Now, I admit that I havn't been working long enough to have taken the test yet, but are you saying that if someone were to pass the test with flying colors (which would be a shock, since it has a 70% fail rate) that their belief that the universe is 6000 years old should disqualify them from work?
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Post by Big Phil »

Darth Wong wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:What you're proposing is a test of people's beliefs rather than their ability to understand and master the material. To put it in another perspective, you are arguing because I believe economics is a bullshit field I should have been failed out of my classes, even though I thoroughly understood the material and passed with flying colors.
You honestly see no ethical problem whatsoever with the idea of scientists who routinely submit work that they believe to be false? What the fuck kind of ethics would this person have? We're talking about professional ethics here, not religious ones.
I have no problem requiring ethical standards for any professional, particularly in the hard sciences. It strikes me as an excellent idea - doctors have a code of ethics, as do soldiers, teachers, and (theoretically) most business professionals. Under the current system, however, you cannot deny somebody who have completed all academic requirements a degree in the hard sciences because they happen to be dipshits who don't really believe everything they've studied.

And taking it a step farther, even professional codes of ethics don't govern beliefs - they govern behavior and actions - "First, do no harm" for example. I would have a real problem with a professional code of ethics that governed one's personal beliefs.
Darth Servo wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote: What you're proposing is a test of people's beliefs rather than their ability to understand and master the material. To put it in another perspective, you are arguing because I believe economics is a bullshit field I should have been failed out of my classes, even though I thoroughly understood the material and passed with flying colors.
Well, you sure as hell shouldn't go get a graduate degree in Econ, thats for sure, regardless of how well you understand the material.
Whether I should or shouldn't is irrelevant to the question of whether I should be allowed to.
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