Pestage and Dangor identified in old promo image?

[The Original Nex]

In the old "Ask the Jedi Council Feature" on TOS, (now defunct but archived here) lists a number of known members of Palpatine's Inner Circle, and also displays an image of several Inner Circle members in a RotJ promo shot. Now, AtJC (notationally written by Jocasta Nu) does not claim that any of the names listed correspond with the image, indeed no mechanism is given to asscociate the two (like "left to right" or somesort of qualifier). Now, the Sate Pestage and, formerly, the Ars Dangor pages on the Wookiepedia place the "tall mitered" man and the man 2nd to the right as Dangor and Pestage, claiming all others have been identified. Is there any reason to believe this, or are the Wookiepedians being entirely speculative? I'm arguing that there's no reason for the association of the two on the respective talk pages of the articles. Am I correct in my assesment?

[Illuminatus Primus]

They make shit up constantly at Wookieepedia. They list everybody following Palpatine as de facto head of state of the Galactic Empire as Galactic Emperors (or Empress in the case of Madame Director of Imperial Intelligence, Ysanne Isard), even though the canon is pretty explicit that only Imperial Interim Ruling Council Chairman Xandel Carivus* assumed the title of Galactic Emperor other than Palpatine. Sate Pestage, certainly, is never described as having declared himself Emperor; and the X-Wing novels specifically describe Isard as "Empress in all but name". All of this being purely academic since as there was no legal mechanism for secession of the throne and as Palpatine did not die at Endor for all legal purposes, he remained rightful Galactic Emperor until his final death at Onderon in 11 ABY.

They also have an extremely speculative whole page dedicated to the title of "Military Executor" used by Palpatine's Dark Side Elite, Sedriss and his successor, Xecr Nist. Even though this title is distinct from that of being Palpatine's "second-in-command" in Dark Empire 2 (whatever that means), they speculatively and directly identify it with the supreme command of the armed forces. Even though it is never mentioned for any individuals other than these stand-in replacements to Palpatine for a Skywalker as his right hand (in the mold of Lord Vader) from his cadre of minor dark side adepts, and never outside of the post-Da Soocha V Operation Shadow Hand depicted in Dark Empire 2 and Empire's End, they identify this rank explicitly with Lord Darth Vader, and list him under this rank as early as the immediate aftermath of Revenge of the Sith. Intellectual and academic rigor is not highly valued at Wookieepedia.

*Note: "Triocolus," Slavelord of Kessel, did have himself declared Galactic Emperor by the ersatz Prophets of the Dark Side with the backing of the Central Committee of Grand Moffs. However, this was within a seperate Legitimist faction opposing the continuous administration at Imperial Center headed by Isard as de facto regent.

[The Original Nex]

Heh yea. I made my case pretty well, and my opponent abandoned the debate barely after it began. What's funny is that the user in question "Jack Nebulax" (or several other pseudonyms) is always trumpeting no speculation and nothing that's not in the canon can make it into the pages. For example when I made the case that not all Droidekas had shield systems, they jumped down my throat. I like how they also attribute the title of Military Executor to Vader as well when he is, actually, the Supreme Commander, a different office.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Nebulax is a dipshit. He has the balls to make bald-faced, explicit claims like "Grand Moff is a government office" - even though as colonial governors they are obviously not policymakers (which I assume is what he meant by his "government office") - but policy implementers. Not to mention Moff Governors ex officio have unified combatant command coextensive with their gubernatorial responsibilities, which would mean they assume command of sector military assets.

[QuentinGeorge]

They make shit up constantly at Wookieepedia.

Not in this case.

Isard, for one, is clearly labelled as "Empress" in the canonical work Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties.

Thus, it was easy for Jax to transfer allegiance from Palpatine to his successor Sate Pestage, then again to Empress Ysanne Isard.

The others on that list (Pestage, Thrawn, Jax, et al) are clearly listed as defacto, in that they lead the majority portion of the Empire, or at least they were listed as such were the last time I checked the article.

Palpatine was the only official Emperor of the first Galactic Empire—most of the Imperial leaders who followed were not recognized by all Imperials or never made use of the title of Emperor.

Yes, exactly what it says there.




Oh, and Jack Nebulax is borderline-troll lately. I wouldn't use him as a Wookieepedia yardstick.

[QuentinGeorge]

Intellectual and academic rigor is not highly valued at Wookieepedia.

Well, I wouldn't say that, but, regardless, we're in the process of implementing more rigorous in-line sourcing guidelines, to make sure that fanon, speculation and general weasel-words don't creep into articles.

[Mange]

In the old "Ask the Jedi Council Feature" on TOS, (now defunct but archived here)

Just a small heads-up... That question, as well as the other questions together with new questions have been included in the new 'Questions and Answers' section over at the TOS (it was updated a few days ago with new information about the deleted scene from ROTJ in which Jerjerrod questions the order to destroy Endor after the shield generator was destroyed). It opens in a pop-up, so I can't link directly to it, but it can be reached through the 'Community' menu.

[The Original Nex]

In the old "Ask the Jedi Council Feature" on TOS, (now defunct but archived here)

Just a small heads-up... That question, as well as the other questions together with new questions have been included in the new 'Questions and Answers' section over at the TOS (it was updated a few days ago with new information about the deleted scene from ROTJ in which Jerjerrod questions the order to destroy Endor after the shield generator was destroyed). It opens in a pop-up, so I can't link directly to it, but it can be reached through the 'Community' menu.

Yes I referred to it in the debate over at the Wookiee, but since you can't direct link to it, I used the archived material out of convinience.

[Illuminatus Primus]

QuentinGeorge, Wookieepedia is not and never will be a rigorous source for information or fit to cite authoritatively. Regardless of Sarli's or Pena's asswipe, Ysanne Isard was not crowned Empress. It is explicitly stated many times in the X-Wing novels verbatim, and ALL depictions of her confine her to her pre-regency red uniform and address her as "Madame Director." The minority source is in error, not the majority.

[VT-16]

The minority source is in error, not the majority.

If this source comes after the others, and it appears to be on the same level of canonicity, it takes precendence.

It's like McEwok claiming something Saxton wrote doesn't override earlier info because it's just one source. Nonsensical.

[Duckie]

The minority source is in error, not the majority.

If this source comes after the others, and it appears to be on the same level of canonicity, it takes precendence.

It's like McEwok claiming something Saxton wrote doesn't override earlier info because it's just one source. Nonsensical.

We could assume fallibility or a turn of the phrase. For instance, the Queen of England at one point or another (I cannot remember the name) for about 14 days or so was not related to the royal family and not crowned, but referring to her as Queen of England would not be technically incorrect in a manner of speaking, as she is the female leader of the Kingdom of England. Similarly, Issard is not de jure empress but is the leader of an empire and female and thus is a de facto empress.

[QuentinGeorge]

The minority source is in error, not the majority.

No source is any more authorative than any other, and a single source labelling her "Empress" is enough to conclude that she was referred to as such, at least by one individual.

Asswipes or not.

[QuentinGeorge]

For instance, the Queen of England at one point or another (I cannot remember the name) for about 14 days or so was not related to the royal family and not crowned, but referring to her as Queen of England would not be technically incorrect in a manner of speaking, as she is the female leader of the Kingdom of England

If you are referring to Lady Jane Grey, then

A) She was related to the royal family - she was a direct descendant of Henry VII

B) Being "crowned" is irrelevant. Edward VIII was never crowned. Most monarchies in Europe do not have coronations.

[VT-16]

No source is any more authorative than any other

Going by LFL's statements over the years, the further away from the films the sources get, the more "foggy" they get, so those closest to the film production and and film crews, take precedence over other EU sources in a conflict.

That's why the Dorling Kindersley series tops most other books, barring the novelizations, due to being made in cooperation with Lucasfilm production crews and personnel.

[Publius]

The fact that she was referred to as "Empress" does not make her a Galactic Empress. The scribe who notionally wrote The New Essential Guide to Characters claims that "many assumed Pestage would be heir apparent to the Imperial throne," which is obviously not the case (there was no mechanism of succession at all, and even if there were, Pestage was not heir apparent by any stretch of the imagination; at best he could have been heir presumptive). It was explicitly stated in Wedge's Gamble that Isard "maintains her title of Director of Intelligence, and has suggested she is holding the planet in stewardship."

Francisco Franco Bahamonde demonstrated that it is perfectly possible to rule a kingdom without being a king (the Spanish State was formally declared a monarchy in 1949, but the throne remained vacant until 1975). Neither Pestage nor Isard has ever been referred to with Imperial dignity by any contemporaneous source. Calling her "Empress" is no more accurate a description than Kenobi's reference to "Emperors" -- note the plural -- in Star Wars: From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker. It is canonical that the description exists, but not canonical that it is an accurate description of the state of affairs. The collective weight of the evidence rules against the title being authentic.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The minority source is in error, not the majority.

No source is any more authorative than any other, and a single source labelling her "Empress" is enough to conclude that she was referred to as such, at least by one individual.

Asswipes or not.

Another canonical source, and several such sources of the same rank, claim explicitly that she was "Empress in all but name." Now is the most reasonable, sensible resolution to claim that she was crowned Empress? Or that her effective powers and perogatives as dictator of the post-Endor Empire proper made her functionally identical to a de jure Empress, though she neither claimed nor was granted the title?

Anyway, having a list of "Galactic Emperors" that not only included dubious matters such as Isard, but also Thrawn and Pestage, etc. is not very helpful or intelligent or informative. It does not inform readers about the powers or characteristics of the Galactic Emperor, and a list of de facto Emperors the majority of whom were military dictators, de facto regents, and strongmen does nothing to assist the reader of the nature of the office of Galactic Emperor. These individuals are NOT significant to an understanding of the office of Galactic Emperor occupied by Palpatine of Naboo, and in many cases their position and powers are described in contrast to Palpatine. In Isard's case, it represents a transition to a stratocratic state from a merely militaristic one.

A list of Kings and Queens of the United Kingdom will not display George IV, King of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland as King while he was Prince Regent, nor should it include Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England, Scotland, and Ireland, Oliver Cromwell. Should Grand Admiral and Reichspräsident Karl Dönitz be listed on a page describing the Nazi office of Führer und Reichskanzler or Führer des Grossdeutschen Reichs? No, because even if he was "de facto" Führer, he is not important or relevent to discussing that office.

In several cases the described "Emperors" do not even occupy a similar position of power relative to the Galactic Emperor Palpatine. General Paltr Carvin, for example, was merely apparently the chairman or president of the three-man Tribunal (presumably somesort of presidium or council empowered to act on behalf of the larger Cabal/Emperor's Ruling Circle since Pestage's ouster). The Tribunal would be the collegial head of state, invested with the Imperial powers and perogatives, but taking such a fact and declaring the Tribunal's chairman and first-among-equals to be "de facto" Emperor is misinformative and stupid. Ysanne Isard was a uniformed military officer as Director of Intelligence, and her assumption of a de facto regency signaled a major transition of the Empire to a military dictatorship. Post-Isard the Emperor's Ruling Circle collegially executed power, and during Thrawn's campaigns they nominally exercised a power-sharing agreement with Thrawn - who officially speaking as Supreme Commander was inferior in rank to them. To take his informal power base and conflate it to "de facto" Emperorship is misleading. Carnor Jax was nominally apparently only chairman of his Interim Ruling Council - which probably was probably collegial regent, and derived significant power informally by posturing as Dark Lord of the Sith (implicit heir to Vader's and Palpatine's personal prestige and authority).

This is saying nothing of the fact that Wookieepedia's stupid portrayal of the Dallaist/Pelleaonist zombie Empire as a the direct legitimate continuation of Palpatine's Empire.

Face it, having a page talking about Galactic Emperors, having a list of them where the vast majority were not even nominally Emperors and in most cases whose powers never resembled that of Palpatine nominally or actually, and who were merely head of state of the Empire is misleading and stupid. Poor scholarship on their part.