Darth Nihilus in the Milky Way

[Noble Ire]

Again, there is no evidence that the weapons being used in that scene are the most powerful in the Sith armada's arsenal. As Schatten points point, Admiral Karath certainly had reason to tone down the firepower used, at least at first; if he found a way to save some valuable military assets and still appease a half-mad Sith lord, as lower-powered bombardment of the area around the Sith garrison would have done, then he probably would have done it. Malak probably wasn't carefully observing every section of the planetary city as it was leveled; as long as it was a smoking hulk by the end of the day, his order would have been executed.

Aside from the fact that most vessels in the KOTOR period seem to be smaller than those of the Imperial age, there seems to be very little technological disparity between the two points. There is no reason to assume that turbolaser firepower is any different. Such a difference is possible, but as I know, there is no real evidence to indicate any significant advancement (indeed, the amount of damage done at the Battle of Malachor V demonstrate firepower easily equalling that of later eras).

[NecronLord]

Again, there is no evidence that the weapons being used in that scene are the most powerful in the Sith armada's arsenal.

And no evidence that they aren't. If you said that sort of thing about a one shot in Trek, you'd be run out on a rail.

As Schatten points point, Admiral Karath certainly had reason to tone down the firepower used, at least at first; if he found a way to save some valuable military assets and still appease a half-mad Sith lord, as lower-powered bombardment of the area around the Sith garrison would have done, then he probably would have done it. Malak probably wasn't carefully observing every section of the planetary city as it was leveled; as long as it was a smoking hulk by the end of the day, his order would have been executed.

That seems... oh, what's the term... reaching. I know Sith are generally crazy, but is Malak meant to be so dumb that he's not liable to notice this vast, many orders of magnitude difference in delivered firepower? Those explosions, compared to what a Victory class can do, appear equivalent to Nelson deciding to bombard a town by getting his marines to line up along one side of the ship with their rifles and open fire on the shore.

EDIT: And that's... after... waiting several hours... Darth Malak is a very patient man. I mean, if that was all I got after waiting for several hours, when I was on a ship capable of putting out hundreds of millions of megatons per second, (as something 1/10th the combat power of an ISD should be able to) and I were a remorseless killer... I'd be pretty annoyed. Especially with the urgent matter of stopping my enemies escaping...

Aside from the fact that most vessels in the KOTOR period seem to be smaller than those of the Imperial age, there seems to be very little technological disparity between the two points. There is no reason to assume that turbolaser firepower is any different. Such a difference is possible, but as I know, there is no real evidence to indicate any significant advancement (indeed, the amount of damage done at the Battle of Malachor V demonstrate firepower easily equalling that of later eras).

Are you talking about this superweapon? A mass-shadow-generator, a pure technobabble weapon?

[Noble Ire]

And no evidence that they aren't. If you said that sort of thing about a one shot in Trek, you'd be run out on a rail.

True enough. I apologize.

That seems... oh, what's the term... reaching. I know Sith are generally crazy, but is Malak meant to be so dumb that he's not liable to notice this vast, many orders of magnitude difference in delivered firepower? Those explosions, compared to what a Victory class can do, appear equivalent to Nelson deciding to bombard a town by getting his marines to line up along one side of the ship with their rifles and open fire on the shore.

The reduced firepower of the observed impacts need not have been replicated throughout the fleet. The Sith garrison was directly adajacent to the area seen; it may have been the only one not flattened by more powerful blasts, and perhaps only temporarily, until the Sith ground forces had finished evacuating. Nevertheless, there is little evidence for this theory, and I will concede the point unless some source verifies the full extent of the damage to Taris.

Are you talking about this superweapon? A mass-shadow-generator, a pure technobabble weapon?

I had thought that the generator did not play a full role in rendering the planet uninhabitable, but upon further review, it seems it probably did. I withdraw the point.

[NecronLord]

The reduced firepower of the observed impacts need not have been replicated throughout the fleet. The Sith garrison was directly adajacent to the area seen; it may have been the only one not flattened by more powerful blasts, and perhaps only temporarily, until the Sith ground forces had finished evacuating. Nevertheless, there is little evidence for this theory, and I will concede the point unless some source verifies the full extent of the damage to Taris.

Offhand, I'd say it'd be, from the dialogue and images, at least equal to G.O. 24 from Trek. Systematic destruction of everything of value on the planet. I don't know how long the bombardment may have lasted, either. And I suppose it's possible - maybe even likely - that more powerful, city destroying blasts were used elsewhere.

I had thought that the generator did not play a full role in rendering the planet uninhabitable, but upon further review, it seems it probably did. I withdraw the point.

It'd be fun to work out the energy requirements of that. Unfortunately you could probably make a geology/materials science final year project out of it.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I know Sith are generally crazy, but is Malak meant to be so dumb that he's not liable to notice this vast, many orders of magnitude difference in delivered firepower?

I'm not trying to argue with you, but from the dialogue and his actions in the game, we can ascertain that he's not the most intelligent Sith Lord, unlike the tactical genius Revan was made out to be, he would destroy entire worlds worth of useful factories and shipyards, rather than reduce collateral damage so he could use them afterwards, thus limiting himself to the Star Forge (Which Revan had concluded must have had a hand in the Rakata's [A Galaxy Spanning Empire before the Republic] downfall). Another piece of his incompetence was when he usurped the mantle of Dark Lord, when a Jedi boarding party was about to attempt to capture Revan during a fleet engagement, Malak opened fire on Revan's ship and rather than make sure he was thouroghly dead, he left it to the Jedi to finish, should Revan still be alive.

[Edward Yee]

Without intending to detract from the analysis of firepower from the KOTOR era, would my earlier take be logically rational/plausible?

[NecronLord]

I'm not trying to argue with you, but from the dialogue and his actions in the game, we can ascertain that he's not the most intelligent Sith Lord, unlike the tactical genius Revan was made out to be, he would destroy entire worlds worth of useful factories and shipyards, rather than reduce collateral damage so he could use them afterwards, thus limiting himself to the Star Forge (Which Revan had concluded must have had a hand in the Rakata's [A Galaxy Spanning Empire before the Republic] downfall). Another piece of his incompetence was when he usurped the mantle of Dark Lord, when a Jedi boarding party was about to attempt to capture Revan during a fleet engagement, Malak opened fire on Revan's ship and rather than make sure he was thouroghly dead, he left it to the Jedi to finish, should Revan still be alive.

Wow... He's actually quite stupid...

[Illuminatus Primus]

Boy, I'm glad I never made that claim in any way beyond 'I'd be surprised if' and thus did not provide any 'analysis' whatsoever, qualitative or quantative. This'd be really uncomfortable if you were actually responding to an assertion, as opposed to a, oh, wild guess for what might be the upper limit of the firepower. The highest figure I've seen anyone come out with for shots from the Taris bombardment was 40GT, quite unimpressive by clone wars standards.

Which is why you produced numbers and plainly stated you were correct?

40 GT is hardly inappropriate.

Because of course, the output of all nuclear reactors is approximately equal.

There are fundamental limits to how low you can produce power efficiently from fission. And with tachyon annhiliation, the trick is to keep it under control, not to drive up annhiliation.

Of course if you actually want an analysis, someone who's, oh, actually played the game would be helpful. Though I'm told the bombardment of Taris is a distinctly unimpressive display of firepower of the warships of the Knights of the Old Republic series. See here, suggesting a truly puny firepower per bolt compared to the giga/tera/peta/insertSIprefixhere-ton blasts of the OT era ships.

The Interdictor-class picket cruiser of the KOTOR era is only 600 meters long, and has much lower volume than a wedge-shape of that size ought to due to the stupid gap between the lower and upper hulls. The size of that space precludes a reactor on the ballpark of the Acclamator. In addition, it hosts a much larger but individually less significant battery than the Acclamator, limiting the firepower. Its guns on are on the refire rate and size scale of point-defense guns of the OT era.

Additionally, its not a dedicated warship, but an interdictor vessel, and it does not have a primary battery in the tradition of OT KDY ships.

Anyway, long-duration total environmental disruption mandates firepower in the gigaton range. And if KOTOR vessels aren't a thousand times lighter than SW vessels, it must have access to the order of magnitude of firepower of the OT if it is to move under its own power or jump to hyperspace.

Why not? Could they not just be going slower?

Acceleration seems to be about the same, and its not hyperdive "speed" which requires fuel and energy, it is the jump to and fro hyperspace and the length of the journey. It takes industrialized worlds' history of energy consumption to power an ISD hyperjump. You are suggesting KOTOR-era had more energy efficient hyperdrives?

Everything from 'The age of true interstellar warships' beginning to now-presumably-invalidated material about the newness of turbolasers.

You need to be more specific. You should tell me where you are quoting from.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It'd be fun to work out the energy requirements of that. Unfortunately you could probably make a geology/materials science final year project out of it.

Didn't the generator crush all the fleets into the planet's crust? That doesn't require any energy, unless some of the fleets were closer to a more massive object that the planet.

[NecronLord]

The Interdictor-class picket cruiser of the KOTOR era is only 600 meters long, and has much lower volume than a wedge-shape of that size ought to due to the stupid gap between the lower and upper hulls. The size of that space precludes a reactor on the ballpark of the Acclamator. In addition, it hosts a much larger but individually less significant battery than the Acclamator, limiting the firepower. Its guns on are on the refire rate and size scale of point-defense guns of the OT era.

And the damage they display... really isn't.

Additionally, its not a dedicated warship, but an interdictor vessel, and it does not have a primary battery in the tradition of OT KDY ships.

Anyway, long-duration total environmental disruption mandates firepower in the gigaton range.

Which, *Points at Saxton's 1e24W outputs* I presume you find far beneath the strength you believe is possessed by the OT's ships. Or do you think their weapons outputs are 'merely' a few hundred gigatons?

And if KOTOR vessels aren't a thousand times lighter than SW vessels,

Which of course, you don't know. So basically your entire argument for near parity is based on intangibles and assumptions? This is circular reasoning - you must show that they have similar materials before using this to argue that the ships should be approximately equivalent in destructive power. Otherwise you're simply stating that they're equivalent, and using that to justify your hyperspace argument.

it must have access to the order of magnitude of firepower of the OT if it is to move under its own power or jump to hyperspace.

Why not? Could they not just be going slower?

Acceleration seems to be about the same, and its not hyperdive "speed" which requires fuel and energy, it is the jump to and fro hyperspace and the length of the journey. It takes industrialized worlds' history of energy consumption to power an ISD hyperjump. You are suggesting KOTOR-era had more energy efficient hyperdrives?

Yes. See the footnote. I did reference this theory. Your assumption of parity requires that Knights of the Old Republic warships are roughly equivalent to those of the OT. This is circular reasoning - before you can assume that the mass - and so the requirements to push that mass past the lightspeed barrier - is vaguely equal, you must make a cogent argument to that effect. Right now the only vaguely solid event I'm aware of is the bombardment of Taris, and that's not very impressive compared to kind of things the dedicated warships of the Imperial Era are capable of. If you're aware of anything suggesting KotOR warships are capable of feats of destructiveness equal to the 1e24W outputs of such ships, I welcome it.

To my knowledge, the sole reliable point of comparison is Taris.

You need to be more specific. You should tell me where you are quoting from.

I think I'm going to have to conceed this bit. I can't find anything readily at hand on these supposed advancements, the AotC ICS in particular doesn't say what I thought it did.

Didn't the generator crush all the fleets into the planet's crust? That doesn't require any energy, unless some of the fleets were closer to a more massive object that the planet.

Quite. I think the idea is that it was meant to have crushed the planet down as well. Which might indicate some work done, in compressing a planet. As, of course, I've not actually seen relevant cutscenes, I don't know.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Wow... He's actually quite stupid...

Well you asked if he was meant to be that dumb.

[NecronLord]

Wow... He's actually quite stupid...

Well you asked if he was meant to be that dumb.

I was thinking the answer would be 'he's meant to be smart' not many characters in fiction are meant to be both menacing and have learning difficulties. Darth Malak is clearly such a character.

[Jericho Kross]

Well Sion was a fan of Malak and look at where it got him.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Well Sion was a fan of Malak and look at where it got him.

The only things Sion had in common with Malak was an injured jaw, a freaky ass voice, and brute strength. Sion didn't go around nearly BDZ'ing planets just to kill the Exhile.

[Ritterin Sophia]

I was thinking the answer would be 'he's meant to be smart' not many characters in fiction are meant to be both menacing and have learning difficulties. Darth Malak is clearly such a character.

Also, I would like to add that both Revan and Malak were once Jedi themselves, so, that kind of makes his counting on the raiding party to finish Revan off even dumber...

[Jericho Kross]

He did see Malak as everything a sith should be [unlike what he thought of Revan who he saw as weak]. It is kind of odd how we went from firepower specs to sith intelligence.

[Jericho Kross]

Comparing Malak to Revan [a bit off topic] is like comparing Thrawn to General Grievous.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Comparing Malak to Revan [a bit off topic] is like comparing Thrawn to General Grievous.

Except, Grievous was actually able to outsmart a Republic Fleet at the Battle of Hypori.

[Jericho Kross]

Well everything has just gone to hell since we were arguing about old republic firepower, has it not?

[nightmare]

On the Taris Bombardment, the clip can be found here.

I suggest watching the Taris escape scene as well which provides a short but larger-scale overview.

[NecronLord]

On the Taris Bombardment, the clip can be found here.

I suggest watching the Taris escape scene as well which provides a short but larger-scale overview.

Indeed. I linked that above.

[Marko Dash]

Is it possible that some of the blasts seen in the cut scene of the ebon hawk leaving taris were going completely through the buildings without losing to much energy, and then wreaking havoc with the heavy supports in the under city and further down? Hence the bright flashes in the escape scene.