I, for one, welcome our new Nazi masters.

[Big Orange]

The problem with taking America by force is obvious to anybody who has ever looked at a map. In order to occupy a country of that size, with that much partisan-friendly terrain and guns, Hitler would need several million soldiers at the very least. Just protecting east-west railway tracks to keep open supply lines to California would be an impossible task, logistically. Hunting partisans is a real problem when the occupied country has more young men alone than you can possible have soldiers.

Well the Nazi occupation forces could do what they did in occupied Europe and draft all the local police, sheriff, FBI and US Military units into holding down the territory for them (not unlike what the Neocons are doing in Iraq, but somewhat more successful). You could have something creepy like the FBI getting fully intergrated into RSHA secret police apparatus or American cops directly assisting Eizengruppen death squads.

No, don't try to attempt to make this game historically realistic. Please.

I don't mind realism in the presentation of uniforms, aircraft, tanks and weapons, but that's about it.

[Adrian Laguna]

If it's semi-realistic, there must be a plausible explanation for the Third Reich to launch a large military taskforce across the Atlantic and into continental North America

It can't be semi-realistic, there is not plausible explanation for the Third Reich successfully landing a large military task force across the Atlantic, let along conquering anything with it.

I'm looking forward to the game, it looks fun. However, one must recognize that it is not alt-history, but rather pure fantasy.

The problem with taking America by force is obvious to anybody who has ever looked at a map. In order to occupy a country of that size, with that much partisan-friendly terrain and guns, Hitler would need several million soldiers at the very least. Just protecting east-west railway tracks to keep open supply lines to California would be an impossible task, logistically. Hunting partisans is a real problem when the occupied country has more young men alone than you can possible have soldiers.

Actually the problem with taking America by force is landing the army in the first place. To invade America you need to defeat the US Navy, a task that is virtually impossible. By 1944 the USN was half the naval forces of the entire planet. Yeah, good luck beating that.

[PeZook]

The problem with taking America by force is obvious to anybody who has ever looked at a map. In order to occupy a country of that size, with that much partisan-friendly terrain and guns, Hitler would need several million soldiers at the very least. Just protecting east-west railway tracks to keep open supply lines to California would be an impossible task, logistically. Hunting partisans is a real problem when the occupied country has more young men alone than you can possible have soldiers.

Actually the problem with taking America by force is landing the army in the first place. To invade America you need to defeat the US Navy, a task that is virtually impossible. By 1944 the USN was half the naval forces of the entire planet. Yeah, good luck beating that.

Right, forgot that. Though in this scenario, the USN may not expand that much, but Germany would still have to supply their forces overseas and they simply didn't have the ridiculously gigantic merchant fleet to do this. Not to mention the USN would be able to challenge German shipping far easier than OTL Germany could challenge the Allies on the Atlantic, even if Hitler realized the Plan Z. It's just one of hundreds of problems with such a plan.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I think the only conceivable way Hitler could have built his dream navy and expand his air force to rival the US was to include Russia in the Axis powers (as Stalin wanted) and get Britain to drop out of the war. This would give him plenty of time to build up the Kriegsmarine and Lufwaffe. But I don't think Stalin would have let Hitler do that for very long before backstabbing Germany and launching his own invasion. Once that happens, Hitler's navy and air force would probably be half-way built and worth shit. He'd have to commit his forces to the Eastern front and would have to delay the invasion of the US long enough so that it enters the war before he can make a move. I'm not sure how it would enter the war with Britain at peace with Germany, but it would be only a matter of time before the US declares war on Germany (if Germany didn't already do so after Pearl Harbor, anyway).

However, the chances of Hitler delaying his invasion in the East and not declaring war on America are nil, so that could never have happened.

[PeZook]

I think the only conceivable way Hitler could have built his dream navy and expand his air force to rival the US was to include Russia in the Axis powers (as Stalin wanted) and get Britain to drop out of the war. This would give him plenty of time to build up the Kriegsmarine and Lufwaffe. But I don't think Stalin would have let Hitler do that for very long before backstabbing Germany and launching his own invasion. Once that happens, Hitler's navy and air force would probably be half-way built and worth shit. He'd have to commit his forces to the Eastern front and would have to delay the invasion of the US long enough so that it enters the war before he can make a move. I'm not sure how it would enter the war with Britain at peace with Germany, but it would be only a matter of time before the US declares war on Germany (if Germany didn't already do so after Pearl Harbor, anyway).

However, the chances of Hitler delaying his invasion in the East and not declaring war on America are nil, so that could never have happened.

I think there was a thread about this very scenario, and the conclusion was that such an alliance was not just implausible, but completely impossible. Both countries had mutually exclusive future goals, and any alliance between such powers would be extremely temporary.

Plus, even if magically successful, the rebuilt German navy would have to operate thousands of miles from their bases in order to defeat the US fleet, under cover of land-based US aircraft. Add to this that Germany simply didn't have the merchants to keep a significant force supplied over the ocean, and couldn't build them up quickly enough. Oh, and US submarines could actually co-operate with their surface navy to hunt German convoys, operating from bases in very convenient locations.

The final nails in the coffin are Britain and the USSR. Britain would be out of the war and neutral, but Germany can't actually force them to disband the Royal Navy or the RAF, so they can quite possibly re-enter the war at any point in the future if they perceive it serves their interest. Then there's the USSR, with the same problems - even defeated, they can still remain a significant problem.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I think there was a thread about this very scenario, and the conclusion was that such an alliance was not just implausible, but completely impossible. Both countries had mutually exclusive future goals, and any alliance between such powers would be extremely temporary.

Right. Hitler's only goal was expansion to the East. Everything else in the West was just a prelude to the real war.

Plus, even if magically successful, the rebuilt German navy would have to operate thousands of miles from their bases in order to defeat the US fleet, under cover of land-based US aircraft. Add to this that Germany simply didn't have the merchants to keep a significant force supplied over the ocean, and couldn't build them up quickly enough. Oh, and US submarines could actually co-operate with their surface navy to hunt German convoys, operating from bases in very convenient locations.

I never thought about those aspects, since I assumed if given the 10 or whatever years Hitler needed to build a rival navy, the merchant fleet would aslo be built. But yeah, in only a few years, as in this scenario, there would be nothing to supply his half-built navy anyway.

The final nails in the coffin are Britain and the USSR. Britain would be out of the war and neutral, but Germany can't actually force them to disband the Royal Navy or the RAF, so they can quite possibly re-enter the war at any point in the future if they perceive it serves their interest. Then there's the USSR, with the same problems - even defeated, they can still remain a significant problem.

I think this is the most important point. Britain needs only the slightest push and they're back in the war with the RN and RAF (with many more planes and well-trained pilots), especially if Hitler tries to stir up trouble with the US. The cease fire with Britain would only be temporary until she felt it's time to strike back.

The Nazis never had a chance at defeating ALL of their enemies. Only if they could isolate them over a great period of years did they stand a chance.

[Lex]

I don't think so. Hitler had been extremely close to capturing Moscow, and with the capital taken, I very much doubt that the Russian could have come back the way they did.

I would say the only "realistic" scenario is the Luftwaffe defeating the RAF as they were close to, but never managed in OTL, then Hitler finished the USSR off without the treat of an invasion in his back (as you said, without an island as invasion base near the shore, there is no way to occupy such a huge territory) and then invading American together with the Japs over Alaska and the Pacific.

Ok it's not really realistic the idea of Germany occupying all of the United States is hilarious, but the idea of the Nazis winning the war if Britain lost in 1940 is not!

The idea behind Philadelphia Project 2 was one of the best, I guess. The Nazis got the atomic bomb and forced America to surrender by destroying Washington...

[PeZook]

I don't think so. Hitler had been extremely close to capturing Moscow, and with the capital taken, I very much doubt that the Russian could have come back the way they did.

It's probable that after the fall of Moscow (provided Hitler could hold the city from counterattack - the units that managed to reach the city have barely got there, were exhausted and undersupplied) the USSR is forced to a peace, but that doesn't mean they won't stir up trouble. Funding partisans is just one way they can make life difficult for Hitler.

I would say the only "realistic" scenario is the Luftwaffe defeating the RAF as they were close to,

Incorrect. They were never close to defeating the RAF, all the Luftwaffe could possibly accomplish was air superiority over southern England. THe RAF would still retain much of it's fighter and attack wings, and their long range bomber force would be all but unscratched. So even if Britain comes to terms with Germany, they retain their navy and air force, and if Hitler decides he wants part of America, it may be enough to push Britain back into the conflict again.

but never managed in OTL, then Hitler finished the USSR off without the treat of an invasion in his back (as you said, without an island as invasion base near the shore, there is no way to occupy such a huge territory) and then invading American together with the Japs over Alaska and the Pacific.

...together with the mighty Japanese Invasion Fleet which would consist of...what, exactly? By the time Hitler could actually do anything, the US submarine war would have decimated Japanese merchant shipping, the US Navy would gain supremacy on the Pacific and any invasion would become impossible for reasons stated earlier.

Ok it's not really realistic the idea of Germany occupying all of the United States is hilarious, but the idea of the Nazis winning the war if Britain lost in 1940 is not!

This is pretty much correct. Germany has a real shot at achieving their objectives provided a relatively stable ceasefire with Britain.

The idea behind Philadelphia Project 2 was one of the best, I guess. The Nazis got the atomic bomb and forced America to surrender by destroying Washington...

It's doubtful the Germans could actually fly that F-117 anywhere, to be honest. And should they bomb washington, it's possible the Allies would have simply smothered German cities with mustard gas via bombers in retaliation.

Even if the US surrenders, then what? You force them to disband their army and navy? I suppose it could be done if you bluff about having more devices. But then what? Occupation? It's impossible to do. A pseudo-versailles treaty? Well, depends how long you can keep bluffing. In 1945 the US has their own nukes anyway and can tell Germany to fuck off. And German's can't really stop them from developing it, because it's not going to be a secret for long that they can't actually make more nukes.

[Lex]

I don't think so. Hitler had been extremely close to capturing Moscow, and with the capital taken, I very much doubt that the Russian could have come back the way they did.

It's probable that after the fall of Moscow (provided Hitler could hold the city from counterattack - the units that managed to reach the city have barely got there, were exhausted and undersupplied) the USSR is forced to a peace, but that doesn't mean they won't stir up trouble. Funding partisans is just one way they can make life difficult for Hitler.

I would say the only "realistic" scenario is the Luftwaffe defeating the RAF as they were close to,

Incorrect. They were never close to defeating the RAF, all the Luftwaffe could possibly accomplish was air superiority over southern England. THe RAF would still retain much of it's fighter and attack wings, and their long range bomber force would be all but unscratched. So even if Britain comes to terms with Germany, they retain their navy and air force, and if Hitler decides he wants part of America, it may be enough to push Britain back into the conflict again.

but never managed in OTL, then Hitler finished the USSR off without the treat of an invasion in his back (as you said, without an island as invasion base near the shore, there is no way to occupy such a huge territory) and then invading American together with the Japs over Alaska and the Pacific.

...together with the mighty Japanese Invasion Fleet which would consist of...what, exactly? By the time Hitler could actually do anything, the US submarine war would have decimated Japanese merchant shipping, the US Navy would gain supremacy on the Pacific and any invasion would become impossible for reasons stated earlier.

Ok it's not really realistic the idea of Germany occupying all of the United States is hilarious, but the idea of the Nazis winning the war if Britain lost in 1940 is not!

This is pretty much correct. Germany has a real shot at achieving their objectives provided a relatively stable ceasefire with Britain.

The idea behind Philadelphia Project 2 was one of the best, I guess. The Nazis got the atomic bomb and forced America to surrender by destroying Washington...

It's doubtful the Germans could actually fly that F-117 anywhere, to be honest. And should they bomb washington, it's possible the Allies would have simply smothered German cities with mustard gas via bombers in retaliation.

Even if the US surrenders, then what? You force them to disband their army and navy? I suppose it could be done if you bluff about having more devices. But then what? Occupation? It's impossible to do. A pseudo-versailles treaty? Well, depends how long you can keep bluffing. In 1945 the US has their own nukes anyway and can tell Germany to fuck off. And German's can't really stop them from developing it, because it's not going to be a secret for long that they can't actually make more nukes.

Yeah, that's certainly true. But with the Soviet Union defeated, Hitler has a lot of time to breath, not to mention the resources he now possesses.

Umm no that's not true. Before Göring ordered his Luftwaffe to attack the English cities like London or Coventry, the bombings of airfields and other bases were bringing the RAF on the brink of defeat. Had they continiued, it is very likely that an Invasion of Great Britain by troops would have been possible. I know that many people argue that Sealion would never have been possible due to the superiority of the RN, but that's wrong either. Without any air support, the navy would be truly useless. And the, the Germans can land. And I highly doubt that the British army could have defeated the Wehrmacht.

I believe it would have been possible to land in Canada or something alike? It's certainly not easy, I wont deny that, but it could have been done.

Yeah, I'm not talking about something like time travelling, but maybe Heisenberg finds the atomic bomb first, and the American scientists fail to do so until it's too late. For the purpose of this What if, that is...

[PeZook]

Yeah, that's certainly true. But with the Soviet Union defeated, Hitler has a lot of time to breath, not to mention the resources he now possesses.

He achieved his objectives, and has access to sufficient oil reserves, but the US is growing fast. Every year he spends building up his forces is another when the US gets closer to defeating Japan in the Pacific Theater. So Hitler only has a few years 3-4 at most, and in this time he has to build a real blue water navy out of nothing, and enough merchant shipping to supply an attempt at invasion.

Umm no that's not true. Before Göring ordered his Luftwaffe to attack the English cities like London or Coventry, the bombings of airfields and other bases were bringing the RAF on the brink of defeat.

Define "brink of defeat". By the time attacks shifted from bases and industry to british cities, RAF lost 480 pilots out of 1438 and 227 fighters out of 656. Only pilot casualties could not be replaced fast enough, so this was hardly a spine-breaking crisis. Exhaustion was the major problem for the Brits, and should a decision be made to pull back to northern bases, pilots can catch some breath and rest up. The RAF wouldbe safe from aerial attacks in the north and would still be available to attack German invasion craft and troops in the Channel should Hitler go ahead with Sea Lion.

Had they continiued, it is very likely that an Invasion of Great Britain by troops would have been possible.

It never was possible. Germany lacked proper landing craft to ship their troops across the Channel, and the huge swarm of river barges and small ships would be a shooting gallery for British destroyers and cruisers, which Germans have very little hope of stopping. Not to mention that just one day of rough seas had the capability to destroy a significant portion of this pitiful "landing force".

I know that many people argue that Sealion would never have been possible due to the superiority of the RN, but that's wrong either. Without any air support, the navy would be truly useless.

How would German air power make the navy completely useless? At the worst, the British Navy would have to trade some destroyers and cruisers for several divisions of finest German troops - an acceptable bargain. Airplanes would not be able to prevent british ships from shooting up the invasion flotilla, especially since the Luftwaffe did not exactly have a stellar record when it came to fighting warships.

And the, the Germans can land. And I highly doubt that the British army could have defeated the Wehrmacht.

Landing is just the first in a thousand steps. You have to secure a beachhead, supply your troops via a hotly contested Channel, then gain access to port facilities if you are to hope to unload your heavy equipment, then push inland for your strategic objectives via terrain that's completely unsuitable for armored maneuver, via a country that's completely devoid of any roadmarks (which were removed) German Heer had no prior experience in amphibious landings, so you can expect a fair deal of confusion at the beachheads, no possibility of actually gaining air dominance (at most, they could expect local superiority) and no heavy equipment which the landing flotilla is unable to land on the beaches. It's a disaster in the making, even discounting horrific casualties amongst troops crossing the Channel.

I believe it would have been possible to land in Canada or something alike? It's certainly not easy, I wont deny that, but it could have been done.

Yeah, it would be possible. And then watch supply problems murder your landing troops. How exactly is Japan going to supply their troops across a contested ocean?

Yeah, I'm not talking about something like time travelling, but maybe Heisenberg finds the atomic bomb first, and the American scientists fail to do so until it's too late. For the purpose of this What if, that is...

It's still not very plausible, sorry.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Hitler is able to invade America by act of Q, that he does so and occupies part of the east coast requires one act of Q for the US Navy, another for the Royal Navy, any yet another for the Partisans, he owes Q four times over.

[Big Orange]

Hitler is able to invade America by act of Q, that he does so and occupies part of the east coast requires one act of Q for the US Navy, another for the Royal Navy, any yet another for the Partisans, he owes Q four times over.

Hitler very likely needs Q for the US Navy, but perhaps not for the Royal Navy (with the UK capitulating) and most of the partisans could be perhaps be manageable in the short term with collaborators or ruthless reprisals. And Pazook is wanking out America's naval and air capacity - sure their sea and air capacity was pretty much impregnable by 1944 but I'm not so sure about America's position between 1939 and 1941. I can see Nazi Germany winning WWII as seen in Robert Harris' Fatherland with Hitler's Eurasian empire replacing the Soviet Union as a Cold War opponent, but like the Soviet Union invading the States in Freedom Fighter, the upcoming Fall of Liberty is borderline fantasy as well.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

And Pazook is wanking out America's naval and air capacity - sure their sea and air capacity was pretty much impregnable by 1944 but I'm not so sure about America's position between 1939 and 1941.

No, Germany has to build up its navy. It has virtually nothing while the US at least HAS a formidable fleet. If Britain dropped out and Germany signed a peace with/defeated Russia, Germany's naval and air production would still be outmatched by US production. Since the US could outmatch German production at any time during the war, if they both started production at the same time the US would have a superior navy and air force anyway even if Germany was given 10 years to prepare.

But that's impossible. America, Britain and/or Russia would enter the war long before Hitler's navy and air force (capable of striking the US) could be built.

In short, Hitler never had enough time to realize his plans to attack Britain and America.

[PeZook]

And Pazook is wanking out America's naval and air capacity - sure their sea and air capacity was pretty much impregnable by 1944 but I'm not so sure about America's position between 1939 and 1941.

I'm not saying it was impregnable, I'm simply pointing out the extreme difficulty of mounting an invasion across a contested ocean with...nothing to actually contest it with or move and supply your troops.

Hitler very likely needs Q for the US Navy, but perhaps not for the Royal Navy (with the UK capitulating)

You can't just ignore the Royal Navy, even if Britain drops out of the war. It would be just as stupid as the US ignoring the Russian navy during the cold war just because they weren't actually at war. Brits are still a threat, even during a cease-fire.

and most of the partisans could be perhaps be manageable in the short term with collaborators or ruthless reprisals.

None of these methods worked for the Nazis in any other country ; why would they work here? In order to use local law enforcement, you need to occupy the entire country and reform these institutions, which is not happening in any reasonable timeline. Ruthless reprisals? It's the worst thing you can do - they actually produce more partisans, not supress them. The US has enough rough terrain, huge urban centers, guns and a culture that values freedom and independence to be a prime breeding ground for partisans.

[Velthuijsen]

Been thinking about how this might be possible.

First point is that not just Churchill would have to be killed so that Chamberlin or someone with similar sentiments could lead GB. Japan would have to do the smart thing and not attack Pearl Harbour. That would preclude the US from militarizing (Seeing the general opinion of both public and most of the government in the 1930-1940 decade).

Maybe keep Huey Long alive and let him win the presidency in 36 & 40 instead of Roosevelt. This because Roosevelt didn't like either Hitler or Mussolini and maneuvered to get Japan to attack the US so that he could declare war on the Axis powers.

Even then there would be a few other problems like a long range invasion and the occupation of a country where the population has more weaponry then the army (and a mindset that is can be described as obstinate independent)

[PeZook]

Been thinking about how this might be possible.

First point is that not just Churchill would have to be killed so that Chamberlin or someone with similar sentiments could lead GB.

It's unlikely Chamberlain or someone from his line could become PM, since appeasement politics have thouroughly discredited themselves. More likely, it will be someone from the "Let's use the Nazis against communism" camp. Even Chamberlain himself changed his views though, IIRC, which is one of the reasons why Hitler can't just ignore Britain that signed a separate peace.

Why? Because politicians are pragmatic people. If Hitler decides to launch an invasion against America, and manages to defeat the Soviets (a necessary prerequisite), then the signal is clear - his goal is total world domination, which he will have if he succeeds in destroying or taking America. Which, needless to say, runs contrary to British interests, since if Hitler can mount a succesful invasion through the Atlantic, then he can certainly hop through a little pond like the Channel and simply kill Britain next.

Therefore, it lays in Britain's vested interest to make the invasion fail. In one swoop, they prevent Hitler from gaining the US industrial base for his own (however unlikely this may be) and, more importantly, they destroy practically the entire German army, or at least gut it enough so that it can't project power anywhere. The best part? They don't have to do anything but hunt German supply convoys, which they can easily do. Americans will do all the hard fighting.

So even if Britain signs a cease fire, Hitler runs a very real risk of them joining the fight again should he mount an invasion of the US, for purely pragmatic reasons. And even the "Plan Z" navy is not enough to absolutely guarantee open, undisturbed waterways across the Atlantic, especially since all german convoy routes would lay within range of RAF airplanes, and Americans can build aircraft carriers far faster than Germans can.

[IRG CommandoJoe]

I doubt that even Hitler would make the asinine mistake of waging war with America before taking out Britain. If he did have a strong enough invasion force and navy to take out America, surely he would eliminate Britain first.

[Crix Dorius]

"Ich, für Ein, Willkommen heißen unseren neuen Nazi Meister. Für einen neuen Reich! Für ein neues Vaterland! Amerika über alles! SIEG HEIL!"

"I, for one, welcome our new Nazi masters. For a new Reich! For a new Fatherland! America over all! HAIL VICTORY!"

Well...

It must be.

"Ich, für meinen Teil, heiße unsere neuen Nazi Meister willkommen. Für ein neues Reich! Für ein neues Vaterland! Amerika über alles! SIEG HEIL!"

[IRG CommandoJoe]

Yeah, I guess that's what I get for using freetranslation.com.