Star Wars on Trial

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

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Stofsk
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Star Wars on Trial

Post by Stofsk »

Holy shit!

I was in a comic/bookstore this afternoon, and I noticed a book in the Star Wars section. The gist of it was 'Star Wars on Trial'. Wanna know who's for the prosecution?

Go on. Take a guess.

David Brin.

:lol:

Anyway. Has anyone noticed this book or delved into it? Apparently SW is defended by Matthew Stover, of ROTS Novelisation fame (which is easily one of the best examples of the SW EU).
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Post by Lord Pounder »

Brin is gonna get fucked like a 3 dollar hooker.
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Post by Sriad »

Quickly, guiltily, and double-bagged?

It would have a lot in common with the SWoT forums from the look of things:

"halfofftopic - free porn video movie"
"hi?Exclusive ! good libks to here raped young"
and "Hello ! i'd like it family sex"

are the first three topics when I went in. :?
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Post by PainRack »

Lol........ Just reading the preview is funny
http://www.starwarsontrial.com/StarWarsonTrial.pdf

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Post by PainRack »

Sorry for the double post, but I just saw this review on Amazon.

For its part, the defense makes its best case on the wider issue of cultural matters, on the effect of Star Wars on science fiction and filmmaking. Novelist Karen Traviss, one of the most popular of the current crop of Star Wars authors, argues convincingly that Star Wars literature can be more than turgid prose hastily churned out for cash by revealing some of the positive changes she was forced to make in her own writing when commissioned to write her first Star Wars novel. And addressing the complaint that Star Wars fiction is driving "real" science fiction off bookstore shelves, novelist Laura Resnick points out that the success of Star Wars fiction has in fact provided publisher Del Rey the financial clout to expand its original science fiction publishing.
Also, http://www.starwarsontrial.com/ appears to have a forum for people to discuss this.
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Post by Bounty »

Wanna know who's for the prosecution?

Go on. Take a guess.

David Brin.
Unsurprising, considering that the "charges" are just a summary of Brin's Salon article.
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Post by Surlethe »

If you look at the leveled "charges", at least half of the eight could just as easily be applied to The Iliad:
  • The Politics of The Iliad Are Anti-Democratic and Elitist.
  • While Claiming Mythic Significance, The Iliad Portrays No Admirable Religious or Ethical Beliefs.
  • The Iliad is a Poor Substitute for Real fantasy and is Driving Real epic fantasy off the Shelves.
  • The Iliad Has Dumbed Down the Perception of epic fantasy in the Popular Imagination.
  • The Iliad Pretends to Be historical, but Is Really Fantasy.
  • Women in The Iliad Are Portrayed as Fundamentally Weak.
  • The Plot Holes and Logical Gaps in The Iliad Make It Ill-Suited for an Intelligent Viewer.
PainRack wrote:Lol........ Just reading the preview is funny
David Brin's writing style is just painful to read. I can't quite put my finger on why, but it seems almost similar to Darkstar's. Maybe it's just dumbed down?
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Post by Ritterin Sophia »

Surlethe wrote:[*] Women in The Iliad Are Portrayed as Fundamentally Weak.
This is rebuttled by pointing out KoTOR II, where the designers have consistantly called the main character her, thus leading to the assumption that the canon version of events are a Lightside Female, and the Exhile was one of, if not the most, powerful Jedi Generals Revan had.
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Post by Bounty »

If you look at the leveled "charges", at least half of the eight could just as easily be applied to The Iliad:
I understand what you're trying to do here, but regardless of your view of Star Wars or the Illiad your comparison is unfair; the Illiad is a recollection of stories created in a period where a male-oriented, elitist society was the norm, whereas Lucas could write the SW verse however damn well he pleased.

Then again, there's no rule that Lucas had to write a perfect society and flawed ones are always more interesting from a storytelling perspective.
This is rebuttled by pointing out KoTOR II
This is "rebutted" by pointing out Leia's actions in ANH and Padmé's whole life story up to the silly "death by sorrow" nonsense. If women in SW are portrayed as "weak", it's only because the villains are portrayed as conservative, mysogenistic pigs who expect no better.
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Post by The Original Nex »

Wow they did a great job securing that place...I don't think there are any posts there besides the trolls and spammers.
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Post by Bounty »

The Original Nex wrote:Wow they did a great job securing that place...I don't think there are any posts there besides the trolls and spammers.
I don't think there's anyone alive in there. Spambots as far as the eye can see...
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Post by Connor MacLeod »

Did anyone notice Karen Traviss' name on the defense? Hilarious.

Edit: And isnt this basically a continuiation of what Brin keeps whining about? The difference being that he gets a buncha other people to hide behind, and found a way to make money off it to bolster his own name and career by working off Star Wars?

double edit: Nevermind about Traviss. It already got pointed out.
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Post by Warsie »

"the politics of Star Wars are anti-denocratic and elitist".

Care to explain on that, considering what some people have said and what the E.U. suggest, is this true or not?
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Post by Teleros »

The Politics of Star Wars Are Anti-Democratic and Elitist
Damn straight - see how Lucas glorifies the Empire and... oh wait hang on...
While Claiming Mythic Significance, Star Wars Portrays No Admirable Religious or Ethical Beliefs.
Brin skipped every scene on Jedi training & Jedi / Sith differences I see.
Star Wars Novels Are Poor Substitutes for Real Science Fiction and Are Driving Real SF off the Shelves.
Yes, but then with people like KT writing what else was going to happen?
Science Fiction Filmmaking Has Been Reduced by Star Wars to Poorly Written Special Effects Extravaganzas.
Um, lol? Sure people like special effects, but there is plenty of good stuff out there too.
Star Wars Has Dumbed Down the Perception of Science Fiction in the Popular Imagination.
Surely you mean "appealed to a wider audience than my Uplift books ever did" :P ?
Star Wars Pretends to Be Science Fiction, but Is Really Fantasy.
No it's just not hard sci-fi.
Women in Star Wars Are Portrayed as Fundamentally Weak.
Now you can argue that they don't get to do all the cool stuff the guys do, but "fundamentally weak"? Riiight.
The Plot Holes and Logical Gaps in Star Wars Make It Ill-Suited for an Intelligent Viewer.
And SW was marketed for the "intelligent viewer" market since when? Oh no wait, it's actually a bit of good old fun in a sci-fi setting designed for everyone to watch and enjoy, so if it has to gloss over a few things it doesn't seem to have crippled itself.
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Post by Jim Raynor »

Women in Star Wars Are Portrayed as Fundamentally Weak.
Which is why Leia grabbed a blaster right out of Luke's hands and saved the entire group with her quick thinking in ANH, making disparaging comments about Luke and Han in the process? Or why the leader of the Rebel Alliance was shown to be a woman in ROTJ? Or why several of the more prominent Jedi in the prequels were female?

Brin's a fucking moron.

EDIT: I see that the "prosecution" for the claim about SW misogyny is actually handled by someone called Jeanne Cavalos. Not being able to read the whole book, I don't know if Brin subscribes to this ridiculous belief as well, though it wouldn't surprise me seeing as how he managed to twist the rest of the saga around.
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Post by Anguirus »

I just Googled Cavalos. Apparently she wrote the B5 Technomage trilogy and "The Science of Star Wars" and "The Science of the X-Files." The claim that Star Wars is misogynist is actually quite remarkable, I've been puzzling over it all morning.

Anyway, doesn't Brin have a life? Or for that matter, a career? Isn't this his second *published* work bashing Star Wars?
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This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal.
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Post by Isolder74 »

The charges:

Charge #1: The Politics of Star Wars Are Anti-Democratic and Elitist.
Yes the enemy of the freedom fighting Rebel Alliance(a democratic organization) is the Evil Galactic Empire lead by Emperor Palpatine, and the Sith Lord Darth Vader. True one of the leaders of the alliance is a Princess but that has little bearing on the system as a whole. In episodes 1 - 3 we see that the Old Republic was a democratic body in that they have a senate that, is based on the Roman model, that handles the running of the galactic government. One of the Whole points of the story is we have that being destroyed by The Empire in favor of a dictatorship.
Charge #2: While Claiming Mythic Significance, Star Wars Portrays No Admirable Religious or Ethical Beliefs.
I guess as long as you consider the Jedi and the Sith not to be religious groups then this is true.
Charge #3: Star Wars Novels Are Poor Substitutes for Real Science Fiction and Are Driving Real SF off the Shelves.
Please define because as far as I am aware it has helped other sci fi books sales as those who come to read Star Wars fiction find other books by the same authors, and other authors in the same section and give them a try. I know I did.
Charge #4: Science Fiction Film making Has Been Reduced by Star Wars to Poorly Written Special Effects Extravaganzas.
That is more a look at the tendencies of the Hollywood industry playing bandwagon rather then on Star Wars itself. You could say the same about the Movie Superman and superhero movies or Lord of the Rings as well.
Charge #5: Star Wars Has Dumbed Down the Perception of Science Fiction in the Popular Imagination.
It has in my perception increased the audience for Science Fiction. The same can be said of the works of Jules Verne and H G Wells as well. The truth of the matter is once I read some star wars books I looked into and read the works of Asimov and other in the sci fi section of the library. Its a very narrow minded fan indeed that only read Star Wars books and never read Dune books and other sci fi novels such as Ender's Game.
Charge #6: Star Wars Pretends to Be Science Fiction, but Is Really Fantasy.
It depends on your definition of 'fantasy.' Star Trek is no less Fantasy then Star Wars in other then setting. After all we have monsters in space(dragons), Vulcans(Elves), Pirates and Telepathy(Magic) all in Star Trek. Trek's difference is they try and pretend they have science to everything, when it isn't always needed to have an explanation.
Charge #7: Women in Star Wars Are Portrayed as Fundamentally Weak.
Not sure where this part is coming from with ladies like Leia, Padma and Mon Mothma running around.
Charge #8: The Plot Holes and Logical Gaps in Star Wars Make It Ill-Suited for an Intelligent Viewer.
Has he ever made a serious look at the plot holes in the Lord of the Rings or 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea? Any work of fiction can be looked and find places where the author missed closing up some point of plot somewhere.

All in all its the cry babyness of an author not getting his books published whining that he can't keep up somehow.
Last edited by Isolder74 on 2007-04-02 11:33am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dooey Jo »

This was also discussed before...
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Post by Stofsk »

Dooey Jo wrote:This was also discussed before...
Trust Elfdart to get there before me and with more summoned outrage than I could muster. Sorry I missed it (I've been busy the last few weeks). :lol:
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

I'll never take this fucker seriously. I know he only wrote "The Postman" and is not responsible for that atrocity of a movie, but he LIKED it, which shows he has no taste. David Brin accusing Star Wars of ruining Science Fiction is like:

-a 28k dial up connection accusing Cable Modems and DSL of ruining the internet.

-McDonalds accusing Omaha Steaks of ruining Beef.

-George Bush giving a biology lesson

I could go on, but I think I demonstrated how little credibility I give Brin.
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Post by Batman »

Brin did NOT just write The Postman. He also wrote Foundation's Triumph if nothing else. Asimov fans the world over have been queuing up to strangle him ever since.
So basically Brin managed to get his whining about how people buy Star Wars but not the garbage he calls writing published, afterall. Colour me apathetic.
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Oh, i'm not familiar with "Triumph". It sucked that bad eh?
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Post by Batman »

The entire Valendamned trilogy did. Brin just fit in perfectly.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Post by dworkin »

He could write some fiction instead of moaning about everyone else.

Kiln People was quite fun aside from the preachy bit at the end. But that was 4 years ago! Publish (and actual fiction) or be damned.
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Post by Shadowtraveler »

Isn't writing a book about a subject that you got debunked on a bit...arrogant? Especially since he's basically putting words into other people's mouths?

So who wants to start placing bets on the outcome of the trial? :D
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