[Discussion] Lonestar

[Mr Bean]

Members of the Senate

Lonestar is has broken AR:3, AR:4 and AR:6, in some cases multiple times. However these infringements were hidden until now because all such discussion took place in the Mess. We have a simple rule in the Mess, what's said in the Mess stays in the Mess but Lonestar has gone to far.

See this thread I've moved in full from the Mess to HoS here. I would prefer to simply snip his posts out and our responses out. But without the full thread you can not grasp exactly how far Lonestar has fallen.


Here are some paragraphs from select posts to give you some idea.

Bottom line, I feel as though it was really wrong to give Kamikaze and Yenchin the boot. I feel that our illustrious mods, that is to say SGT Idaho Potato and Mikey the Wonder-cadet, are bowing to pressure from a bunch of flaming liberals. A bunch of flaming liberals who, quite frankly, don't give two shits about the military(except that it's baaaaddddd) but will, on occasion, drape themselves in the flag and fake outrage over problems that have been endemic in the service for years and years.

[I'm sure you were just as morally obligated to tell Ender's CoC some unseemly things too?

I'd like to see you prove that guesstimate there, Broke-dick. Of course, if Ender didn't want morrally objectional actions and charecter traits reported to his CoC, maybe he shouldn't have told the whole fucking usergroup. Or, for that matter, any other message boards he frequents. Or maybe he should have been less flamboyant about with his "buddies" in front of his own chain of command.

It's no one's goddamn fault that he got "outted" (such as it is) but his own.

And the final one, the one for the thread in the first place

Lonestar, last warning, your acting like complete douche bag for reasons I still can't comprehend, but what I can tell you is that you are in violation of AR-3, AR-4 and AR-6 and have been. This is the fucking Mess Lonestar! Our shit should stay private but if you push me I'll be forced to act.

I don't know what bug has got up your arse but you are out of line Lonestar. Take a few hours off come back when your calmed hell, fuck man, bang your girl, go shoot something, go get drunk somewhere, fuck man do something to let you calm down. But do not come back here again acting like you are acting now.

Last chance Lonestar, calm down, back off.

"what bug crawled up my ass"? For 4 years i've sat here and watched my country, my faith, and my beliefs belittled by by the leftist lunatics here on this board. The mess used to be a sea of sanity, but you all have decided to start parroting the gay-leftist agendaists here on the board.

you have all decided to jettison the bearing expected out of you from being in the military. A very prominent member decides to act in an unethical manner, and in fact boasts about it in this very usergroup, and then there is a boo-hoo when karma at his command comes back to bit him in the ass.

instead of doing the correct thing, coyote and mikey the wonder-cadet attempt to intiate a witchhunt and the king malingerer from a whole family of malingerers cheerfully joins in to score points with the leftests.

fuck you all. fuck you, bean, for being a cowardly shitbird who probably called his detailers at Corry to beg off commands were you would deploy, fuck coyote for trying to bring this all out to begin with, fuck mr. lonely-hearts who wants to be a big man because he's a cadet and can't get any.

What say you members of the Senate, what should we do with Lonestar?

[Surlethe]

The mess bled into the chat last night, apparently. If the Senate so desires, it's possible to obtain logs from Ace Pace or XaLeV.

As for Lonestar, this whole thing is just fucked up. I know part of me wants to ban the dishonest little shit right away, but another part of me wants to keep him around, if only to find out for sure if he's the one who outed Ender (circumstantially, it sure looks like it).

EDIT: chatlog; thank you, Ace. It blows up a bit at a little after 5:30, Israel-time.

[RedImperator]

To my knowledge, nobody has ever been punished for actions in private usergroups except by expulsion from that usergroup. That's part of the rationale for making them private to begin with. I don't know if the Administrative Rules even apply to the private usergroups, and there have been so many phantom threads in the public forums that I have no idea who's done what where. As for the chat log, its primary utility so far has been to confirm I was right when I decided to stop wasting time there. Would somebody care to edit that into some kind of legible format, please?

I have two concerns in this whole affair. Ender's situation is the first, since he's the only person facing actual real-life consequences thanks to all this nonsense, and if it was an SDN member who took it upon himself to attempt to ruin his career, we don't need that member anymore. The second is ending (or at least containing) this bullshit. I would prefer the members of the Mess keep their own house in order without the help of the administration, but over the last few weeks, several of them have demonstrated an inability to do so.

Frankly, I don't think the Senate is the proper body for handling this, and I don't think it was necessary to make this issue public or dragging that thread onto the board. A situation that was mostly confined to the background and contained almost entirely within the Mess has been made public.

[SirNitram]

Red, I'd agree if this thread popped up out of the ether, with no prelude in the public eye. I honestly would. But it's not a new event, it's not something the board in general was unaware of.

Mess business has been bubbling up into the general forum for a while now, and one name always is at the forefront. While I don't necessarily agree with dragging that thread into the light, as Bean did, I do not think we should just continue to ignore it. To put it in another light, how many times must this be dragged into the public eye before we do something?

[LadyTevar]

Regarding the Rules he has broken: Each of those rules pertains to bad-mouthing the way moderators do their jobs. Are his actions and compliants merely about the how the Mess is moderated, or are they about SDnet in general?

[Frank Hipper]

Regarding the Rules he has broken: Each of those rules pertains to bad-mouthing the way moderators do their jobs. Are his actions and compliants merely about the how the Mess is moderated, or are they about SDnet in general?

AR 4:

"what bug crawled up my ass"? For 4 years i've sat here and watched my country, my faith, and my beliefs belittled by by the leftist lunatics here on this board. The mess used to be a sea of sanity, but you all have decided to start parroting the gay-leftist agendaists here on the board.

Looks to me he has serious issues with SDN in general.

[fgalkin]

I agree with Red on this one, it's a private usergroup matter, and should have been kept private. However, even though it was dragged out before the general public, I still don't think Lonestar should be punished for what he said in a private forum. Eject him, if you want, but the Mess operates under its own rules, that has been the very cornerstone of that forum. If we punish Lonestar for what he said there, we, in effect, will be destroying the Mess's semi-independant status.

For comparison, consider the issue of priave communications such as SDN chat logs and PMs. We don't generally punish people for what they say there, unless it's a very serious issue, such as stalking females. If Lonestar is the one who outed Ender, then yes, he should be banned for it, but until we know that, we should not punish him. We must not turn this into a witch-hunt (as with the stalking thing).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Regarding the Rules he has broken: Each of those rules pertains to bad-mouthing the way moderators do their jobs. Are his actions and compliants merely about the how the Mess is moderated, or are they about SDnet in general?

AR 4:

"what bug crawled up my ass"? For 4 years i've sat here and watched my country, my faith, and my beliefs belittled by by the leftist lunatics here on this board. The mess used to be a sea of sanity, but you all have decided to start parroting the gay-leftist agendaists here on the board.

Looks to me he has serious issues with SDN in general.

Expressed in a private forum. This is NOT a "hur hur, you suck, I'm leaving" post.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[SirNitram]

Expressed in a private forum. This is NOT a "hur hur, you suck, I'm leaving" post.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

AR4 has never been only for 'hur hur, you suck, I'm leaving' posts.

If you have a complaint about the whole board, you are obviously unhappy here, so leave. Complaints like "so this is the way you do things at SD.Net" and "the prevailing attitude here seems to be" etc clearly indicate that you dislike something about our entire board culture and you should leave. If you persist on staying and acting like this, we will make you leave.

It is blatantly clear he has a problem with the entire board culture.

[fgalkin]

With only "the leftist lunatics," actually. Now, whether you fall under that category or not is a different matter, but he never said anything about SDN as a whole, only about some of its members.

Also, remember the reason for that rule. We passed it to rid ourselves of whiny trektards and fundies, who, after finding their asses kicked in debate begin whining how nasty we are.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

Take it public? Of course I hated taking it public, but he's not a Senator, your not members of Mess or admins, So a discussion in the Mess won't work, Storage won't work since that's mods only. And he can't respond in the senate.

HoS is the only real place aside from me copy-pasting his posts, the original posts and tracking down chat-logs and the like.

What am I to do in such a situation, we've had no previous cases where a situation in a private user group is affecting the public board. By default any issues end up in HoS so dang it, that's where I put it.

[SirNitram]

With only "the leftist lunatics," actually. Now, whether you fall under that category or not is a different matter, but he never said anything about SDN as a whole, only about some of its members.

"what bug crawled up my ass"? For 4 years i've sat here and watched my country, my faith, and my beliefs belittled by by the leftist lunatics here on this board. The mess used to be a sea of sanity, but you all have decided to start parroting the gay-leftist agendaists here on the board.

It is quite clear that he considered this place a bevy of insanity, except for the Mess, and now he's even upset at it. So yes. This is AR4. This is textbook AR4.

And frankly, I see no reason why we should restrain our usual no-tolerance policy for this emo, whiny, 'I hate it here I hate the posters I hate the culture but I'm staying' crap. The only question.. The only one.. Is whether we should enforce a board rule for something that got out of hand in the Mess.

[RedImperator]

AR4 was clearly written to stop people from going on long rants about how much the board sucks, not so that we can ban people who privately complain, or even privately loathe, the board. We are not in the business of banning people for thoughtcrime here.

[fgalkin]

With only "the leftist lunatics," actually. Now, whether you fall under that category or not is a different matter, but he never said anything about SDN as a whole, only about some of its members.

"what bug crawled up my ass"? For 4 years i've sat here and watched my country, my faith, and my beliefs belittled by by the leftist lunatics here on this board. The mess used to be a sea of sanity, but you all have decided to start parroting the gay-leftist agendaists here on the board.

It is quite clear that he considered this place a bevy of insanity, except for the Mess, and now he's even upset at it. So yes. This is AR4. This is textbook AR4.

Point.

And frankly, I see no reason why we should restrain our usual no-tolerance policy for this emo, whiny, 'I hate it here I hate the posters I hate the culture but I'm staying' crap. The only question.. The only one.. Is whether we should enforce a board rule for something that got out of hand in the Mess.

Considering that this was said in the heat of passion, and in a private forum, I'd say no. There were times when I myself had vented my frustration about this board, or certain members of it (although I don't recall ever saying that the board as a whole sucks, only aspects of it). By your reasoning, I would be guilty of violating AR4 as well. Lonestar's only guilt is that his statement became public.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Gil Hamilton]

I agree with RI and fgalkin. From the looks of it, regardless of whatever opinions he may have held, what Lonestar did was not a public spectacle to cry about board culture, but was venting his frustration in what he thought to be a private place. I very much doubt he's the only one in the history of this board to complain in private about the culture of the board to other people. In fact, I know for sure he isn't. As he was for the most part keeping it under his hat outside of private quarters, I don't think he should be punished for that. I'm not one for punishing people for their opinions, even if they are ones I strongly disagree with.

If he turns this into a public spectacle (or makes it worse of one), then hang him. But I haven't seen anything in the spirit of the rules that he should be punished for.

[Connor MacLeod]

I agree this is and probably should remain a private matter. However, I have to ask: Why do we have tha thread in the HoS? I kind of understand the concepts behind it (privacy, as well as for the benefit of the Senate) but it doesn't seem to have worked out quite that way (reading Edi's last post in there, at least.)

First off, it would seem to be keeping an issue which some are saying should have remain private in public. That further antagonizes things. Having it in the HoS (where it is open to hijacking by any plebe, even though that thankfully seems to have been minimal so far, probably wasn't a good idea either.) Maybe that thread should be closed.

Second. Its getting a bit annoying for this issue to keep cropping up. Its not really a Senate matter, but it seems to keep getting dragged up TO the Senate, and I'm starting to see this where it could get disruptive to the overall forum. If this issue can't be kept strictly to the forums and it starts breaking out into the open, then its probably the Mods who should act (if they want to consult the Senate, fine, but we just really recommend shit, and I can't see much discussion needed if it becomes a disruptive problem.)

Third - If these people are such disruptive influences, why are they STILL in the Mess? I see some people opposing them, but it seems to me the majority of the Mess has (rightly) stayed out of the issue. Given that it is (as RI says) a private issue, why doesn't the Mess take a private vote as to whether they want them there or gone?

If they get outed (and i'm not saying they would), and they bring it out into the open, THEN the Mods/Senate could conceivablyt act, because its out in the open and they're behaving like nay other troll we deal with. Or, they may leave. Beyond that, it seems pretty fucking pointless for us to be debating this at all.

The only point we SHOULD discuss perhaps is how to keep it the fuck out of our business, and what to do if someone does try to drag it out into the public eye again.

Edit: also, what about the chats? Do we extend the whole "dragging this out of the Mess private group forum" to the chats as well? I'd think that is important, because shit that happens there could leak over here, and still cause problems.

[Spyder]

After looking over the threads my reccomendation would be that the mod remove Lonestar from the mess. I submit that we put this forward as a non-binding reccomendation, mod's discretion. However if Lonestar stays and this happens again, we should review the Mess' viability as a group.

I believe this resolution would give the mod the neccessary backing to carry out their decision, while preserving confidentiality for group members. This is a policy we could also apply to other groups as well.

Edit:

Entering the following into evidence:

Reportedly a deleted post from testing:

Man, coming up on 10 months out of the Navy and I still feel loyalty to the Service.

For example, I happen to know of a Gentlemen who i suspect of faking an injury to get out of deployment. To put it bluntly, his alleged injury do not seem to match up with his activities. Now, he conveniently got this injury less than a month before his unit was set to deploy. As a result, his unit has gone overseas shorthanded, while he leads to easy life with his "bum collarbone" in the rear.

If I were to have sufficient circumstantial evidence that indicated that he may be , shall we say, exaggerating his injury(like, say, chatlogs and messageboard posts) or perhaps enjoying his injury just a little too much, and I were able to track down his chain of command via AKO, would I be morally obligated to report it?

Pending the authenticity of the above, there's reason to beleive that the above was posted to the venting thread as a threat to another board member, constituting threat, vendetta and harrasment. This is in addition to the possibility that similar actions have been carried out against another member.

If that is authentic we should consider a permaban for Lonestar.

[LadyTevar]

I second Spyder's motion that the Moderators of the Mess remove Lonestar from that forum.

I went through something like this with the Knights Astrum Clades over EmperorSolo51. I did not need Senate Approval to kick him out of the Knights; I simply kicked him out for violating that private forum's main rule.

So, once again I ask... Why is this here, and why is it in HOS, when it could have been easily dealt with by simply kicking Lonestar out of the Mess.

PS: And if this is an 'April Fool' like last year, I will move that the whole Mess be deleted.

[RedImperator]

After looking over the threads my reccomendation would be that the mod remove Lonestar from the mess. I submit that we put this forward as a non-binding reccomendation, mod's discretion. However if Lonestar stays and this happens again, we should review the Mess' viability as a group.

I believe this resolution would give the mod the neccessary backing to carry out their decision, while preserving confidentiality for group members. This is a policy we could also apply to other groups as well.

I think this is the best possible solution. Let Coyote and RogueIce clean their own house.

Edit:

Entering the following into evidence:

Reportedly a deleted post from testing:

Man, coming up on 10 months out of the Navy and I still feel loyalty to the Service.

For example, I happen to know of a Gentlemen who i suspect of faking an injury to get out of deployment. To put it bluntly, his alleged injury do not seem to match up with his activities. Now, he conveniently got this injury less than a month before his unit was set to deploy. As a result, his unit has gone overseas shorthanded, while he leads to easy life with his "bum collarbone" in the rear.

If I were to have sufficient circumstantial evidence that indicated that he may be , shall we say, exaggerating his injury(like, say, chatlogs and messageboard posts) or perhaps enjoying his injury just a little too much, and I were able to track down his chain of command via AKO, would I be morally obligated to report it?

Pending the authenticity of the above, there's reason to beleive that the above was posted to the venting thread as a threat to another board member, constituting threat, vendetta and harrasment. This is in addition to the possibility that similar actions have been carried out against another member.

If that is authentic we should consider a permaban for Lonestar.

I concur. If this is authentic the only appropriate response is a permanent ban, in my opinion.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

This seems to have been a private matter of one of the private usergroups. There have been rumblings which have bled over into the board at-large, but nothing which has really justified that we bring someone up before the Senate. And really, the Senate isn't the venue to air a private group's dirty laundry. If someone wants to be enough of an asshat in a private group, then they ought to be ejected from that group at the discretion of the group's moderator or the admins. If they want to persist, after being thrown out by their private usergroup, in being an asshat in public view, then we can drag them before the Senate for the customary trial.

I suppose we could see it as an indictment against the aforementioned usergroup, that they were unable to resolve their issues without someone outing the whole thing to the board at-large. Private usergroups, as I understood them, were to be private affairs. Someone may feel the need to talk about certain issues in the private areas, since they may feel that such-and-such group is their safe harbor, and they have no desire to discuss such things in front of the public and the peanut-gallery at large. If it is not felt that usergroup cannot resolve their own troubles without taking things public in such a spectacular fashion, then it is arguable that their continued existence as a private usergroup should be called into question. However, this too isn't really something that is within the purview of the Senate, and is something likely better discussed among the moderators and admins.

So, in short. Thirded, the Mess should be responsible for cleaning up their own mess. If the shit continues to fly in public after that, then we can drag the appropriate members in front of the Senate for their trials.

[Spyder]

Man, coming up on 10 months out of the Navy and I still feel loyalty to the Service.

For example, I happen to know of a Gentlemen who i suspect of faking an injury to get out of deployment. To put it bluntly, his alleged injury do not seem to match up with his activities. Now, he conveniently got this injury less than a month before his unit was set to deploy. As a result, his unit has gone overseas shorthanded, while he leads to easy life with his "bum collarbone" in the rear.

If I were to have sufficient circumstantial evidence that indicated that he may be , shall we say, exaggerating his injury(like, say, chatlogs and messageboard posts) or perhaps enjoying his injury just a little too much, and I were able to track down his chain of command via AKO, would I be morally obligated to report it?

Pending the authenticity of the above, there's reason to beleive that the above was posted to the venting thread as a threat to another board member, constituting threat, vendetta and harrasment. This is in addition to the possibility that similar actions have been carried out against another member.

If that is authentic we should consider a permaban for Lonestar.

I concur. If this is authentic the only appropriate response is a permanent ban, in my opinion.

Spin also tells me she saw this in the venting thread before it was removed. I'm willing to take her word for it, I forward the motion to permaban Lonestar.

I'll leave it to the Senate's discretion as to whether or not they wish to second based on current information or wait for a mod to confirm.

[CmdrWilkens]

I'll say only from a "why is the Senate debating this" perspective that what you see is what we felt had to be talked about because the resolution was not concurrent enough within our own ranks. Yes this sucks that its being dragged before the board as a whole but the point remains that if we deadlock then the next most logical place to go is the Senate. The overriding point is that this conduct falls into a slightly gray area, if these statements were made in public then its almost an open and shut case but they weren't and that has been the problem which is why trial by Senate seems the most logical next step.

[SirNitram]

I have been officially punk'd by the Mess. Well played gentlemen. Well played.

Your deaths have, however, become infinitely more likely to involve purging fire.

[fgalkin]

You goddamn fucking fucks. Fuck you and your tanks, and your ships and your planes. Fuck you all!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

You goddamn fucking fucks. Fuck you and your tanks, and your ships and your planes. Fuck you all!

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

On behalf of the Mess, thank you sir