What is Neon Genesis Evangelion?

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Spanky The Dolphin
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Majin Gojira wrote:So the question becomes, which ending do YOU prefer.

Me? I Like the 25,26 ending. Call me a sucker for Happy endings if you must..

But I'm still trying to Wrap my brain around EoE...
Not really, as EoE is officially the real ending of Eva, while the TV series one just presents what happens when Third Impact succeeds: pretty much the opposite of what happens in EoE.

While the TV ending might look happy from Shinji's perspective, it's actually the unhappy ending. While Shinji thinks it's good: it's very, very, very bad for Man.

Yoshi: hit the nail right on the head.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Necro99 wrote:What if it's an EVIL!!! Soul?
Shut up, kid.
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Post by Necro99 »

*bulldozes spanky with the sturmtiger*
It was a honest question! AWNSER IT!
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Majin Gojira wrote:Well, More Specifically...I'm trying to figure out why Shinji was Strangling/atempting to strangle Asuka (Though, to me, it appeared to be a mild fusion with Rei as well--what with the bandages and all) at the end. I got pretty much everything else, but that just caught me as odd.
I think he was seeing if they both were real.

Ah, here it is:
Q) Why does Shinji strangle Asuka in the final scene of The End of Evangelion, 'I need you.' ?

A) The sequance is one of the most hotly debated in Eva circles all over the world. Until now there was no definitive answer to the mystery. However, Bochan Bird has recently stumbled onto the absolute answer, held within the Eva Carddass Masters Trading Card Game.

Here is the original answer I wrote about a year ago for this FAQ:
'I need you.' affirms Shinji's choice to return to reality, and in doing so has separated himself from Asuka once more. His first impulse is to strangle her, to finish what he started during Complementation. But then he feels her caress (which is very similar to the one he received from his mother only moments before) and realizes what he's doing. He releases his grip and collapses as an emotionally broken little boy - which disgusts Asuka.

The following presents the definitive answer to this question, as translated by Bochan Bird -
Part II (movies) Drama card D-88
Title: "Kimochi warui"
Small print:
"Shinji renounced the world where all hearts had melted into one and accepted each other unconditionally. His desire... to live
with 'others' -- other hearts that would sometimes reject him, even deny him. That is why the first thing he did after coming to
his senses was to place his hands around Asuka's neck. To feel the existence of an 'other'. To confirm (make sure of) rejection
and denial."

---- So, I was half right. The scene is meant to be an affirmation of Shinji's decision to return to reality. As I wrote on the Evangelion ML, the scene is there to prove "pain once again exists". However, I didn't give Shinji enough credit for his intention when he strangled her. I thought it was a carry over from the previous strangulation scene, when it was actually meant as a test to see if he was indeed back in the real world.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Necro99 wrote:*bulldozes spanky with the sturmtiger*
It was a honest question! AWNSER IT!
Define an "evil" soul. As far as I know, a soul is a soul to an Eva.
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Post by Majin Gojira »

Thanks, It was ambiguous beyond my capacity for intuition.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Exonerate: I just found out. You were right about Maya. I conceed. For a single time I let my personal opinion influence what I thought, conflicting with official information. It will not happen a second time.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Just found this and thought some might find it interesting:
Eva Otaku FAQ wrote:Q) Is there religious meaning to Evangelion?

A) No. Evangelion is not, and never was a religious anime and does not contain any direct commentary on the world's religions. The Judeo-Christian elements it contains are simply plot devices used to convey the story. Nothing more.

The cross shaped explosions, the Kabalah, and all other references do have religious roots and do have relevance to Evangelion but it is very important to remember that Eva is a work of fiction and should not have it's symbols taken that seriously. I think that Mamorou Oshii (director of "Ghost in The Shell" and "Patlabor") described religious elements in anime best when he said "These are used as the prototype for the stories; not for religious reasons, but for ideology and literary inspiration".

Finally, at the Otakon anime convention held in 2001, assistant director Kazuya Tsurumaki (who was the director of The End of Evangelion: Episode 25' Air - while Anno personally undetook The End of Evangelion: Episode 26' Sincerely Yours and acted as Chief Director) was asked directly what relvance Christianity had to Evangelion. This was his reply:
Tsurumaki: There are a lot of giant robot shows in Japan, and we did want our story to have a religious theme to help distinguish us.
Because Christianity is an uncommon religion in Japan we thought it would be mysterious. None of the staff who worked on Eva are Christians.
There is no actual Christian meaning to the show, we just thought the visual symbols of Christianity look cool. If we had known the show would get
distributed in the US and Europe we might have rethought that choice.

So, while Evangelion's basic plot elements are borrowed from some religious texts and myths, they merely act as inspiration for a different story. They are just there for aesthetics. Evangelion also borrowed several elements from earlier Tomino anime shows. Evangelion owes more to Ideon, than it does to Revelation.
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Post by Archaic` »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Just one last thing for the dog warrior:

If I don't have any official info to back me up, then what does this mean to you:
Eva Otaku FAQ wrote:Q) Which is the true end to Evangelion? The TV episodes or the films?

A) The End of Evangelion is the official ending to the saga. In the RCB it is stated that EoE was created from the original scripts for eps 25 and then a new script written to continue from that episode, but because of production errors they could not be used. However, this does not mean the TV ending is false, it is simply an alternate conclusion.
My position is supported. EoE is the official ending, as said by Gainax, while the TV ending is only an alternate ending.
He's the quote he's referencing.
Episode 25' "Air" is based on the original episode 25 script which was completed during production of the TV series. Due to production time limits and other problems, this script was not used and the TV episode 25 "Owaru sekai (The Ending World)" instead became a drama which unfolded within an inner universe like episode 26. In this sense, episode 25' could be considered a return to the originally intended contents. In contrast, episode 26' adds much more story and dramatic content to TV episode 26, thus deepening the theme.
It would appear that when he says "However, this does not mean the TV ending is false, it is simply an alternate conclusion.", the creater of evaotaku is projecting his own personal opinion onto the statement.

There is however another statement I didn't earlier (Within the commentary section of the RCB, not production for some odd reason) see that backs up your position
For the TV series, episodes 25 "Owaru sekai (The Ending World)" and 26 "Sekai no chuushin de ai wo sakenda kemono (The Beast who Shouted "I/Love" at the Center of the World)" were shown following episode 24 to conclude the series. Thus, the story of Evangelion branches into two after the last scene of episode 24. There is one ending as shown in TV episodes 25 and 26, while episodes 25' and 26' as shown in "THE END OF EVANGELION" are another ending. (Here, plain numbers are used to indicate the TV episodes, and numbers with apostrophes for the movie episodes)
So, assuming the translation is accurate, it seems we're left with a contradiction. The first statement seems to say that 25' and 26' adds onto 25 and 26, while the second says that they are seperate endings. Which of these is supported by the animation then becomes the question. Again, I've already given you the link.
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Post by SWPIGWANG »

okay...here is a b4k4 question

Why does shinji see rei in the start of ep.1 and end of EoE? (I think)
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

SWPIGWANG wrote:okay...here is a b4k4 question

Why does shinji see rei in the start of ep.1 and end of EoE? (I think)
Well:
Q) Why does Rei appear to Shinji in eps 1? Furthermore, why is she in perfect health while when at NERV she is bandaged from the accident involving Eva-00?

A) There is no official answer. I have heard it suggested that it was a different clone of Rei, but this is highly illogical as there is only one soul that the Rei clones posses and they cannot all have it at the same time, and in The End of Evangelion the three clones of Rei (the ones that were actually "living") stand together during Human Complement Project. Also, this theory does not explain why Rei seems to disappear as Shinji glances away for a second.
I feel I should point out that at the end of The End of Evangelion, there is a scene strikingly similar to that in episode 1.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Dog Warrior, I see no contradiction. Why do you?

They are refering to the original script for ep. 25 that was rejected.

I really can't see what you're getting at now. Those quotes support my position completely.

Besides: the two endings are separate and alternate:

TV series: Alternate ending - Internal perspective, Shinji accepts Instumentality, Third Impact succeeds. (bad ending)

EoE: Official ending - External perspective, Shinji rejects instrumentality, Third Impact fails. (happy ending)
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Post by Dalton »

I'm determined to watch NGE through to the end only to see if it's as utterly fucked up as I've heard it was...
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

It's not really "utterly fucked up", just different and rather sudden in it's shift.

Just make sure you don't let the anime fan personna take over while watching.
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Post by Dalton »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:It's not really "utterly fucked up", just different and rather sudden in it's shift.

Just make sure you don't let the anime fan personna take over while watching.
What exactly do you mean by that? I usually watch anime from an objective POV.

For some reason I am now reminded of an indie anime called "Voices from a Distant Star". Very bittersweet. Ever seen it?
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

You know, the kind of otaku that's goes fucking nuts over someting they don't like, and becomes extremely hostile about it for years.

EoE is just very, very different from the TV series, so some parts might be rather bizzare or shocking.

Personally, I think it's the perfect ending.

No, I haven't seen it.
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Post by Archaic` »

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Dog Warrior, I see no contradiction. Why do you?

They are refering to the original script for ep. 25 that was rejected.
From the first quote
"episode 26' adds much more story and dramatic content to TV episode 26"
From the second
"There is one ending as shown in TV episodes 25 and 26, while episodes 25' and 26' as shown in "THE END OF EVANGELION" are another ending."

Is it adding on to the TV series, or is it a seperate ending?
Spanky The Dolphin wrote: I really can't see what you're getting at now. Those quotes support my position completely.
Quotes...maybe, depending on where you're coming from (In your case, an assumption that the 2 endings MUST be seperate). Animation, no. I've already shown you the link to the explanation.
Spanky The Dolphin wrote: Besides: the two endings are separate and alternate:

TV series: Alternate ending - Internal perspective, Shinji accepts Instumentality, Third Impact succeeds. (bad ending)

EoE: Official ending - External perspective, Shinji rejects instrumentality, Third Impact fails. (happy ending)
Alright, let's take this from a different angle so you might see what I'm getting at.
Say I'm holding up a picture of an apple. I then say I've drawn an orange. That doesn't change the fact I've drawn an apple, does it?

It's the same situation here. While it's been said in the RCB that they're seperate, the endings don't appear seperate at all on examination. Indeed, *BOTH* seem to show the rejection of instrumentality, at different points during that rejection. (The final scene of episode 26 for instance would seem to be what's happening inside Rei/Lillith as Eva-01 bursts free. Though if you want direct points of reference, we've got Shinji under the staircase, Asuka in her Eva in the lake, Misato slumped against the wall, and Ritsuko lying face down in the lake of LCL all in the original TV episodes.) Again, I linked you to something which explained this far better than I possibily could earlier. You appear to have not read it. You might not have seen the movies yet, but it's not as if you've been trying to avoid spoilers, so please read it and you might see what I'm getting at.
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Spanky The Dolphin wrote:You know, the kind of otaku that's goes fucking nuts over someting they don't like, and becomes extremely hostile about it for years.
Ahh...kind of like Greedo shooting first?
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:EoE is just very, very different from the TV series, so some parts might be rather bizzare or shocking.

Personally, I think it's the perfect ending.

No, I haven't seen it.
If you find a copy, grab it...
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Post by Yogi »

For the record, I really don't care for End of Evangelion, but Voives of a Distant Star kicks MAJOR ASS.
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Post by Singular Quartet »

Dalton wrote:I'm determined to watch NGE through to the end only to see if it's as utterly fucked up as I've heard it was...
If you're looking for mind-fucking television, you get your hands on Serial Experiments: Lain, then marathon watch it. Do so only at your own risk.
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Yes, I've heard of Lain... I intend to find a copy somewhere...

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Post by Singular Quartet »

Exonerate wrote:Yes, I've heard of Lain... I intend to find a copy somewhere...
Gainax has put most of or all of the entire series on DVD, and there's only 13 episodes, so that's four DVDs.
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Post by Setzer »

Yogi wrote:
kojikun wrote:I believe hes saying that any competent military would defeat the angels quickly.
I see he missed the numerous scenes with the Angels wading through conventional military forces like it wasn't even there.
No, I saw that. The US or Russia probably would have just dropped a nuke before spending billions on EVAs.

(They say that the repairs to EVA-01are enough to bankrupt a small country, so I'm assuming the EVAs cost AT LEAST 20-40 billion dollars )
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Post by Setzer »

MKSheppard wrote:
Exonerate wrote:Japanese rebuilded. US' economy was shot to hell. Don't ask, its anime.
How can they rebuild from a global cactaclysm in Antartica that would have
majorly fucked over Japan through tsunamis?
Masturbatory delusions of Japan still being anything but an uncrushed bug militarily.
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Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

I see you're one of those that have difficulty understanding abstracts... Or maybe even interpreting obvious and plain text.

Archaic, you say the TV series ending shows the rejection of Instrumentality. That is false. To think that the TV series ending shows Shinji rejecting Instrumentality is idiotic at the least.

While the following contains the opinion of the FAQ author, I think it is true:
Q) Are the TV ending and Film ending the same conclusion to the saga?

A) In my view - No.

In the TV ending Shinji chose to stay with Complementation - it isn't even clear that Shinji had a choice at all. He is treated as little more than an example of the process of Complementation - which consisted if breaking down Shinji's link to reality. In the end, Shinji looks at the world of Complementation and smiling happily says "I understand! I can exist here!" He is then congratulated for his decision, by friends living and dead (Kaji), a healthy Touji with his leg still on, and even PenPen. A surreal ending scene to say the least. This ending is similar in context and theme to the ending of George Orwell's book, 1984.

Conversely, the film ends in the opposite manner. Shinji does have a choice and in the last moments of the film utterly rejects Complementation precisely because it eliminates the link to reality, it establishes a false paradise. Complementation is basically a cop-out, and Shinji has matured enough to realize this. The tone at the end of the film isn't a surreal, almost drug-induced, joyful "Congratulations!" for Shinji, but the cold and harsh reality of life.

Further, the Newtype Filmbook description for the scene states (literally):
"Amidst the many words of congratulations, a faint smile starts at the corners of Shinji's mouth (and spreads across his face).
A happy face -- that is the figure of the Complemented Shinji. This conclusion is also one form, one possibility among many."
(Translated by Bochan Bird)

Note, "the figure of the Complemented Shinji". Pretty cut and dry.
Remember that the TV series ending is shown from an individual internal perspective, while EoE is shown from a generally external perspective.

The TV series ending tells Shinji "Life has too much pain. Join everyone together to end that pain, so Man can live as one, without pain." They tell Shinji that he doesn't have to continue to exist in Reality, and that he can create his own if he accepts Instrumentality. But this is actually a lie to get Shinji to accept Instumentality.*

Shinji accepts this, and is treated to everyone he's known, even if they are dead (Kaji, Ritsuko, Misato, Yui, etc...). And they all congradulate him on his choice. It is a false reality. And it just ends there, as Instrumentality becomes complete and all of Man is reborn as the Single Perfect Being.


In EoE, Shinji is told the same thing, but rejects it. While pain doesn't feel good, it's what makes us human and separate entities. If Man is allowed to exist separate, then that pain is bearable. Thus, Shinji rejects Instrumentality, destroying Lilith, and returning the souls to the Earth, into the sea of LCL. Shinji and Asuka are also returned to Earth, and he strangles her to make sure they and their surroundings are both in reality, and to see if pain still exists. Asuka's reaction, Shinji's breaking down, and then Asuka's disgust shows that the result of the test was positive. Pain still exists, and Man remains separate beings.

*We see part of this in EoE as well. Shinji is terrified of Lilith as Rei, and doesn't accept. When Lilith switches to Kaworu, the only person in his life to tell him he was loved, he accept almost immediately. As Shinji accepts, Lilith switcheds back to Rei, and proceeds with Instrumentality.
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