Grand Vizier and Imperial Inner Circle overlapping duties?

[OmegaRed]

Hi,

I was recently reading about the Office of the Grand Vizier and the Imperial Inner Circle. Both of their jobs was the day to day running of the Empire and basically doing the Emperor's will. So technically, was their jobs overlapping eachother? or am I missing something?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Palpatine has a habit of setting up a Govt structure that has antagonism built into it.

[The Original Nex]

The balance of power within the Imperial State was constantly shifting. The Inner Circle/Ruling Council appears to have held more power than the Office of the Grand Vizier held. Pre-Yavin, it seems Ars Dangor held the Chairmanship (or otherwise the leading position) on the Ruling Council, and he is described as being the Emperor's de facto regent in that time period. Post-Yavin, however, it is Pestage who is said to carry out day to day operations, likely implying his elevation on the Ruling Council, rather than an increase of power in his seperate Vizier office.

[Vehrec]

The Emperor probably was mediating between shifting power blocks inside his government every day of the week. His system seemed to be designed to prevent the rise of anyone who could be considered a realistic heir. Which makes sense when you consider his plans called for him to live forever. Overlaping Job descriptions only serve to benefit him.

[Edward Yee]

While I don't want to fall into the "anything illogical about the Empire can be explained by Palpatine being a nut" trap... reading the Imperial structure makes me think such. I (can) see the same in CompForce, for example.

[OmegaRed]

In a way, The Imperial Government reminds me of Nazi Germany's Government. I read a book about the Third Reich. Apparently, noone clearly knew what their job was and there were ALWAYS overlapping departments. Which caused bitter rivalries.

[The Original Nex]

A good example of that in the Empire would be Imperial Intelligence; a military intelligence/CIA/NSA compilation of intelligence agencies that was itself a branch of the military, and the Imperial Security Bureau; an SS-SD-like, quasi-official intelligence agency that operated under the Commission for the Preservation of the New Order, which itself was a political body within the Empire. The two agencies hated each other with a passion and sought to undermine the other at every turn.

In the Pestage case, however, this is unlikely to be the case, as Vizier Pestage himself was ON the Ruling Council, and as such, would not be in a power play with himself.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Of course, it all blew out in the open during the Imperial Civil War. It was supposedly a darwinian approach to getting rid of weaklings. Every one was killing each other.

[phongn]

Publius' website goes into some great details about the workings of His Imperial Majesty's Government.

[Edward Yee]

A good example of that in the Empire would be Imperial Intelligence; a military intelligence/CIA/NSA compilation of intelligence agencies that was itself a branch of the military, and the Imperial Security Bureau; an SS-SD-like, quasi-official intelligence agency that operated under the Commission for the Preservation of the New Order, which itself was a political body within the Empire. The two agencies hated each other with a passion and sought to undermine the other at every turn.

Worse yet, within the military 'proper,' there's CompForce. Having heard that they were embedded with line Army but possibly not Navy (don't know whether that'd be because of ISB presence), that'd make a Star Destroyer with a prefab garrison and a stormtrooper division carry... Army, Navy, Stormtrooper Corps, and CompForce, with CompForce having a separate chain of command (reaching up to Palpatine "through" COMPNOR), and the stormies possibly having their own. *head scratch*

[The Original Nex]

A good example of that in the Empire would be Imperial Intelligence; a military intelligence/CIA/NSA compilation of intelligence agencies that was itself a branch of the military, and the Imperial Security Bureau; an SS-SD-like, quasi-official intelligence agency that operated under the Commission for the Preservation of the New Order, which itself was a political body within the Empire. The two agencies hated each other with a passion and sought to undermine the other at every turn.

Worse yet, within the military 'proper,' there's CompForce. Having heard that they were embedded with line Army but possibly not Navy (don't know whether that'd be because of ISB presence), that'd make a Star Destroyer with a prefab garrison and a stormtrooper division carry... Army, Navy, Stormtrooper Corps, and CompForce, with CompForce having a separate chain of command (reaching up to Palpatine "through" COMPNOR), and the stormies possibly having their own. *head scratch*

Yep. And the military, like Intelligence, HATED having the quasi-troops and the so-called Thought Police operating over their shoulders (as the Wermach disliked the Waffen-SS).

The CompForce CoC more or less ends at Lord Crueya Vandron, the head of COMPNOR.

The case of the Stormtrooper CoC is indeed befuddling. At times they operate on their own, with their own officers leading. Other times they are placed at the disposal of the Imperial Army, and still other times in the hands of the Imperial Navy. I am unaware of who commands the battlegroup aboard ISDs. The commander of 9700 troops ought to be a General Officer, however, then there would be an officer onboard who is several grades higher than the ship's own Captain (assuming a typical Star Destroyer).

Perhaps Publius could give a better explanation (heh, more like: NO DOUBT Publius could give a better explanation )

[Lord Revan]

there's actually no conflict with an (army and/or Stormtrooper) general officer leading the surface attack group on an ISD as he would not be part of the ships chain of command (meaning that said general couldn't command even a single sailor to do anything unless the Captain of the ship had placed said naval personel under the disposal of the "ground" forces) or at least that's the way it's in the Finnish Defence force (I have reason to belive it would be different in the imperial equilvants)

[Tanasinn]

In a way, The Imperial Government reminds me of Nazi Germany's Government. I read a book about the Third Reich. Apparently, noone clearly knew what their job was and there were ALWAYS overlapping departments. Which caused bitter rivalries.

Chances are that was an intended effect of EU literature/material: the Empire is generally demonized as a group of misogynistic, racist, brainless thugs in such material when there's only circumstantial evidence of any of these traits in the movies (usually being expressed by true lunatics like Palpatine, Tarkin, or Vader himself).

[Ritterin Sophia]

I have an issue of Star Wars Insiders where the concept artists said something along the lines of GL wanting them to take inspiration from the SS for the officers, then there's the whole blatant Sturmmann thing, it's really not surprising.

[Connor MacLeod]

Palpatine (at least towards the OT era) pretty much intended to be the lynchpin holding "His" Empire together. Things were set up to prevent any one particular faction (aside from him, ,with the aid of the Dark side) from holding too much power. In the event he were assasinated or otherwise removed, he had Byss and his endless clone reincarnation trick to fall back on. Once things started falling apart on those who tried to wrest power, he could simply move in after and pick up the piecees (kinda like he did in Dark Empire.) The sorts of complications, infighting, and bureacratic nonsense that restricted or thwarted others would not stop him if he WANTED something done (he's demonstrably skilled at subterfuge and manipulation, using pawns, and he's got the Dark Side to back all that up.)

As an added benefit, not only did this convoluted system act as a virtually-insurmountable series of checks and balances against any would-be usurpers, it also promoted the growth of the whole Dark Side thing, which as we later learn he was able to tap into (as well as other ways) to grow more and more powerful.

And if he ever DID die, well, he probably intended to take the Empire with him (if not the entire galaxy. He was eventually gonna eat everyone, after all.)

[Cykeisme]

Feel free to tear this apart, it's admittedly a little hairbrained, but I have a theory about the bizarre nature of stormtrooper deployment and command.

Looking at the white-armored troopers as hardware instead of a branch of the military may explain it. They're as ubiquitous across the different services (Imperial Army and Navy) because they're little more than equipment, not unlike battle droids or, in the closest modern-day analogy, a model of rifle.
Perhaps battle droids are still a better analogy, because it would seem Palpatine and Vader (perhaps only Palpatine) have a command override that supercedes anyone else in the Empire.

[OmegaRed]

What was the overall goal of the Galactic Empire anyway? I know the Sith wanted to rule the galaxy, but was there a subtle plan as well?

[phongn]

What was the overall goal of the Galactic Empire anyway? I know the Sith wanted to rule the galaxy, but was there a subtle plan as well?

Yes, Publius' site goes into some detail about Palpatine's ultimate plan.

[Connor MacLeod]

What was the overall goal of the Galactic Empire anyway? I know the Sith wanted to rule the galaxy, but was there a subtle plan as well?

Yes, Publius' site goes into some detail about Palpatine's ultimate plan.

We should change your title to "Publius Booster"

[phongn]

We should change your title to "Publius Booster"

Not my fault I'm too lazy to summarize what he already wrote