[Discussion] Lonestar

Post by **Colonel Olrik** » 2007-04-01 07:31pm

Ah Ah.

Post by **Coyote** » 2007-04-01 07:42pm

A few things:

1- Nowehere is it written that an April Fools' Day joke is supposed to be "funny" per se. You are just supposed to fool someone. Tradition has it for them to be "funny" but in truth if you're legitimately going to lead someone astray there has to be enough seriousness to it to sound legit.

2- We discussed, in the Mess, that some folks would be teed off. But we left a lot of hints. The only time, I mean the only time, that we acted rabid and out of control over this was when we were carrying out this operation. Through all other threads, forums, sub-forums and interactions with others, we carried on like normal. Only when the conversation became "gays in the military and the Mess" did we light up. We were certain that this inconsistency would blow our cover, but we stuck to it.

3- We really did feel that we were acting so out of character it just would not be accepted. Hence the long-term lead-up. It was the only way, we felt, that this really had a chance because our actions would require, in some cases (Lonestar, Yenchin, Sith...) a real change of personality.

4- In deference to the "lead-up" rule about preparing pranks ahead of time, it was, to be honest, at my urging because of the above reason #3. I'm willing to accept some sort of censure for violating the "no lead-up" policy if necessary, but the rest of the Mess merely took hints that I'd dropped when formulating this and ran with it. After I contacted Mike and got the OK, I urged them on, so that's my responsibility. It won't happen again.

5- Regardless, I think it was a good operation, well executed, and, we'd be perfectly happy to see others organize a big prank, and I think we could even get a kick out of being punk'd ourselves in some clever and creative way.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2007-04-01 07:51pm

Coyote wrote:2- We discussed, in the Mess, that some folks would be teed off. But we left a lot of hints. The only time, I mean the only time, that we acted rabid and out of control over this was when we were carrying out this operation. Through all other threads, forums, sub-forums and interactions with others, we carried on like normal. Only when the conversation became "gays in the military and the Mess" did we light up. We were certain that this inconsistency would blow our cover, but we stuck to it.

Think this one over carefully. Why would this inconsistancy stick out? Why would it set off alarms? Do you think homophobes in real life are raging, frothing at the mouth psychos? Or are they ordinary people who get worked up over one specific issue? You'll find in interactions they will tend towards the latter.

Congratulations on keeping your operation running, but this was a poor method to try and leave hints. Yes, people like that exists.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2007-04-01 08:03pm

RogueIce, head(Or acting head, I can never recall) of the Mess wishes this posted to the Senate.

I can't post in the Senate, but here you go:

As regards to the homophobes thing, I had thought that, given how many times DADT has come up in the past, and that the Mess has pretty much always condemned it (even, I believe, some of those suddenly defending it) that we could get called upon that. I mean, even aside from the homophobe angle, we were acting very out of character.

Not that this is directed at you Nitram, but with me and Lonestar essentially blowing up at one another in the chat, well... We've been friends for a very long time (at least in board terms). Same between me, him, and Brungardt. Why there would be such a sudden change in this might've sparked some questions, but nobody ever thought to ask them. People were far more worried on the "gossip" angle ("What's going on in the Mess?") and didn't even seem to care or notice that me and Lonestar had managed to trash a friendship somehow. So at that point I was a little "meh" to it all.

Though still, had I known that an incident like this would bring back painful real life memories for certain people, I would have done something to alleviate it if I could (either called it off, or let the affected parties know we were acting, as RedImperator and Durandal did for the "Mass Banning" prank).

Please repost in the Senate for me.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2007-04-01 09:56pm

Adding a little bit to what Coyote said we had a couple goals in mind a more than a few worries when we set this up. Obviously foremost in our mind was that this would be a prank that ran too far and had people honestly suspect us of harboring the sort of homophobia we would have to, at least in part, display. What settled the matter for my part, and I believe for a few others, was the belief that it is most telling when people reat blindly to percieved faults in others. Speaking for myself I find homophobia foolish and uninformed but I would like to think I could stop and figure out why a fellow poster might suddenly and inexplicably begin ranting and shouting about it with no obvious prior signs. Much of the point here has been to illustrate how quickly we can jump on the "kill the <whatever>phobe" bandwagon without bothering to wonder why the person suddenly is acting this way.

The other point about how this might affect other private usergroups might be of worry to many but this was why every post that we brought over into HOS for the senate to 'review" was specifically built for public review in defense of this prank. The real messages and threads of the mess are literally untouched and I think it speaks to a rather clever means of disguising something which otherwise would have had to have been manufactured with far too much attention to timing to be believable. The walls of privacy are as strong as ever I think. Moreover had this been real and had the Mess truly lost its ability to keep members in check within its bounds they maybe we do need to start thinking of how to handle such incidents in the future.

If I may be blunt we got a large number of people to believe some amongst us were homophobes then told everyone that it was all a trick. That's the sum of the prank in a sentence and if folks aren't willing to accept that they might rush to judgement on homophobia and thus can be trapped by the same rush to judgement then perhaps the trick was meant for thicker skins.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2007-04-01 10:30pm

those who can, may want to check a new thread in a certain hive of scum and villiany (ooooh nice Idea for next year, can some one rename the place (Monkey Isley <hive of spam and naughtyness>) just for 01-april-2008?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2007-04-01 11:13pm

CmdrWilkens wrote:If I may be blunt we got a large number of people to believe some amongst us were homophobes then told everyone that it was all a trick. That's the sum of the prank in a sentence and if folks aren't willing to accept that they might rush to judgement on homophobia and thus can be trapped by the same rush to judgement then perhaps the trick was meant for thicker skins.

Actually, that wasn't what I got out of it at all. What *I* got out of it was that Someone got Ender into trouble IRL, tried to ruin his career, and then the Mess was self-imploding as you tried to find out who did it. The whole homophobia angle went right over my head; I was seeing Lonestar as either the guilty party or knowing the guilty party and covering his own ass.

I'd be surprised if I was the only one to see that angle.

Spyder · Post by **Spyder** » 2007-04-01 11:34pm

Speaking of which, where exactly is Ender?

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2007-04-01 11:41pm

out appolgizing to the hive queen for using those little doctors on her home planet....

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2007-04-01 11:54pm

Spyder wrote:Speaking of which, where exactly is Ender?

As I understand it? Deployed. We of course wish him well, now that we know his career isn't torpedo'd.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2007-04-02 01:55am

LadyTevar wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:If I may be blunt we got a large number of people to believe some amongst us were homophobes then told everyone that it was all a trick. That's the sum of the prank in a sentence and if folks aren't willing to accept that they might rush to judgement on homophobia and thus can be trapped by the same rush to judgement then perhaps the trick was meant for thicker skins.
Actually, that wasn't what I got out of it at all. What *I* got out of it was that Someone got Ender into trouble IRL, tried to ruin his career, and then the Mess was self-imploding as you tried to find out who did it. The whole homophobia angle went right over my head; I was seeing Lonestar as either the guilty party or knowing the guilty party and covering his own ass.

I'd be surprised if I was the only one to see that angle.

I honestly dont beleive that people didnt see the whole thing for what it was. I thought it was badly telegraphed from the get go.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2007-04-02 02:04am

Stuart Mackey wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:If I may be blunt we got a large number of people to believe some amongst us were homophobes then told everyone that it was all a trick. That's the sum of the prank in a sentence and if folks aren't willing to accept that they might rush to judgement on homophobia and thus can be trapped by the same rush to judgement then perhaps the trick was meant for thicker skins.
Actually, that wasn't what I got out of it at all. What *I* got out of it was that Someone got Ender into trouble IRL, tried to ruin his career, and then the Mess was self-imploding as you tried to find out who did it. The whole homophobia angle went right over my head; I was seeing Lonestar as either the guilty party or knowing the guilty party and covering his own ass.

I'd be surprised if I was the only one to see that angle.
I honestly dont beleive that people didnt see the whole thing for what it was. I thought it was badly telegraphed from the get go.

What irked some mods really though?

They put material in the forum that only be accessed by Moderators and Mini Moderators and told the moderators that it was there to defuse the situation. This would be on the level of Frank Hipper telling the moderators that he's putting something he wants to defuse there, and doesn't want anyone else to see it.

That's what made probably more then a few think it was a whack WTF to being something real.

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2007-04-02 03:50am

Yeah.

When you've had your best friend, flatmate, and all round person-you-trust-most for seven years standing tell you out of the blue in all seriousness that she doesn't think you should have the right to marry or adopt children because what you do with your girlfriend is a sin?

Then you can tell me from what directions I can and can't expect unexpected bigotry.

Referring to Coyote's point 1) I would have thought common sense dictated jokes were meant to be funny. Winding people up just for the sake of upsetting them is just being a dick.

LadyT wrote: What *I* got out of it was that Someone got Ender into trouble IRL, tried to ruin his career, and then the Mess was self-imploding as you tried to find out who did it. The whole homophobia angle went right over my head; I was seeing Lonestar as either the guilty party or knowing the guilty party and covering his own ass.

Oh, I saw that too. I saw that very strongly. I just thought the controversy surrounding DADT was precipitating that.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2007-04-02 01:51pm

Coyote wrote:A few things:

1- Nowehere is it written that an April Fools' Day joke is supposed to be "funny" per se. You are just supposed to fool someone. Tradition has it for them to be "funny" but in truth if you're legitimately going to lead someone astray there has to be enough seriousness to it to sound legit.

Out of curiousity, if it's not funny, than what is the point? If there is no actual humor involved, then your prank was simply causing shit for the sake of causing shit, on an issue that actually does have sincere attachment by people on this board... for what exactly? If there is no point, then all that makes you is an asshole.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2007-04-02 04:12pm

Something I've just realized. AFD day is special because the normal rules of behavior do not apply. However, in the lead up days, the rules of the board do apply. Including this little tidbit

PR3 wrote:Serious lies are not acceptable on this forum. If it is found that you have lied about your identity, your background, your accomplishments, or your status in life, you may face disciplinary action. If you are found to be consistently dishonest in forum discussions, that may also lead to disciplinary action.

What you have here is a group of people using official forums (the Senate, the Mod forum, and others) to perpetuate what is a massive violation of the board's rules.

Even leaving aside all notions of whether the prank was good or not, the fact remains that the members of the Mess broke the rules. In fact, the only reason this prank worked is because of their violation of PR3, that is, people expected that minimods, mods, and senators will actually follow the rules, and naturally accepted their statements.

I thereby move that we discuss some sort of censure or punishment for the guilty parties.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2007-04-02 04:20pm

Having thought - or not thought - about it some, I've calmed down a bit and while I still don't see the humour in what was actually done, I sort of see the intention, and am now only really concerned that parties understand why I consider it in poor taste.

But I looked at PR3, and I don't think lying about your political and religious affiliations really counts as a serious lie.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2007-04-02 04:22pm

InnerBrat wrote:Having thought - or not thought - about it some, I've calmed down a bit and while I still don't see the humour in what was actually done, I sort of see the intention, and am now only really concerned that parties understand why I consider it in poor taste.

But I looked at PR3, and I don't think lying about your political and religious affiliations really counts as a serious lie.

The fact that a Senator claimed to be resigning and leaving the board, because someone has outed him and ruined his career is not a "serious lie?"

The fact that people used this forum to propose "punishment" for an offense that didn't exist is not a "serious lie?"

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

InnerBrat · Post by **InnerBrat** » 2007-04-02 04:23pm

fgalkin wrote:The fact that a Senator claimed to be resigning and leaving the board, because someone has outed him and ruined his career is not a "serious lie?" The fact that people used this forum to propose "punishment" for an offense that didn't exist is not a "serious lie?"

Oh.

OH.

Good point.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2007-04-02 04:23pm

It was a tasteless, assholian prank that caused trouble and extra work for others, but I can't in good conscience support a punishment.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2007-04-02 04:25pm

SirNitram wrote:It was a tasteless, assholian prank that caused trouble and extra work for others, but I can't in good conscience support a punishment.

Censure, then, as well as a ban on future such behavior?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **Surlethe** » 2007-04-02 04:35pm

I think at the very least we need to recommend a clarification of the rules on April Fool's Day. The PM LadyTevar quoted in the previous page of the thread raises a good point: at what point is it generally acceptable to prank, and when do people need special dispensation from the Administration or Darth Wong himself?

As to censure, I see the point, but the fact is that the owner of the board gave the Mess permission to do this. If I can cite them as holding without being a hypocrite, by IR1 and IR3, I don't know that PR3 applies to this particular circumstance.

And my gut reaction is still just simple admiration for how well the Mess pulled it off.

Gil Hamilton · Post by **Gil Hamilton** » 2007-04-02 04:51pm

Based on a strict reading of the rules, Fgalkin is right. There was a bunch of rule breaking there and they did actively break PR3 in a highly deliberate fashion.

I'm not sure slapping them around for the particular rules they broke, however, is appropriate (no matter how stupid or shortsighted their joke, it wasn't meant to be deceptive for harmful reasons), but if it is, everyone who took part is accountable since they were all in on those lies.

Post by **Coyote** » 2007-04-02 05:22pm

SirNitram wrote:
Coyote wrote:...We were certain that this inconsistency would blow our cover, but we stuck to it.
Think this one over carefully. Why would this inconsistancy stick out? Why would it set off alarms? Do you think homophobes in real life are raging, frothing at the mouth psychos? Or are they ordinary people who get worked up over one specific issue? You'll find in interactions they will tend towards the latter.

Congratulations on keeping your operation running, but this was a poor method to try and leave hints. Yes, people like that exists.

Good point. I get spoiled on things like logic and consistent thinking here. I forget the amazing abaility of others to self-delude IRL.

Post by **Coyote** » 2007-04-02 05:35pm

Gil Hamilton wrote: Out of curiousity, if it's not funny, than what is the point? If there is no actual humor involved, then your prank was simply causing shit for the sake of causing shit, on an issue that actually does have sincere attachment by people on this board... for what exactly? If there is no point, then all that makes you is an asshole.

You can have a prank without humor, and in a way this played well to the illogic of the "other side". We had to coach our "volunteer homophobes" how to argue a point of view that was, essentially, inarguable. The rediculousness of it made it monumentally fascinating, IMO.

Bear in mind that some of the "victims" of the prank were actually quite amused in the end. The issue does have sincere emotion attached to it by many on this board, and while that actually includes me in a way (I had to overcome homophobia myself many years ago and developed a distaste for discrimination in general) but at the same time, we are also unafraid to confront and even roast sacred cows here from time to time.

And, as to the "letter of the law" being what it is, like I said earlier it was at my urging that the ball got rolling so early. Any retaliation that comes of this is to had by myself, not the rest of the guys. I was the first to mention to them that we should "start laying the foundation early" so as to make "Operation Brokeback Warwolf" more believable by April 1st ...since ramping up on the 31st was "too obvious". So that's my fault.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2007-04-02 05:41pm

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Coyote wrote:A few things:

1- Nowehere is it written that an April Fools' Day joke is supposed to be "funny" per se. You are just supposed to fool someone. Tradition has it for them to be "funny" but in truth if you're legitimately going to lead someone astray there has to be enough seriousness to it to sound legit.
Out of curiousity, if it's not funny, than what is the point? If there is no actual humor involved, then your prank was simply causing shit for the sake of causing shit, on an issue that actually does have sincere attachment by people on this board... for what exactly? If there is no point, then all that makes you is an asshole.

As I observed in another thread this wasnt an april fools prank on any meaningful level, it was just acting like a bunch of cunts for a couple of weeks then going "Haha! You really thought we were assholes! Haha! We got ya! April Fools!"