Questions about SD.net

[Anarchist Bunny]

And I have yet had anyone tell me a logical excuse why Star Destroyers with main weapons in the hundreds of MT to GT range were using 500 KT laser cannons against enemy capital ships.

Oh, thats simple, you obviously dillusional. You ignore offical figures, and then try to use your bullshit calcs in a hypothosis. And I think your confused with what a capital ship is. We never see any real Cap Ship to Cap ship combat.

Nice copout Bunny.

What would you classify a Nebulon-B Frigate as?

When was the Neb-B under fire from LTLs, I can remember TIEs attacking it, but not LTLs.

[BabelHuber]

This debate is very amusing!

IceHawk: Did you watch the same movies I watched? Without any further thoughts or background information you can see at the first look that the SW Galaxy has an incredibly big technological advantage over the ST Galaxy:

1.) ANH: One word - Death Star. This beast can fly to any location in the Galaxy in short time and blast away whole planets with pure brute force.

This alone should convince everybody with a functioning brain. Comparing the DS to any ST ship is like comparing a B2 bomber to a 9th century viking warship.

2.) ESB: The Empire can search the whole Galaxy for some Rebels and has no problems to reach any location in short time. Have you realized that never, ever in any SW movie distance is a concern for anybody?

According to DS9 it takes 2 weeks for a subspace message to pass through Federation Space.

3.) ROtJ: The DS2 was built in secret! Do you know what it means to spend such an amount of ressources into a single project without anyone noticing? It means that the gross national product of this economy must be so big that these ressources don´t matter.

OTOH, the loss of a few dozen ships in TNG was heavy for the Federation.

So for me the calculations of Dr. Curtis Saxton and Mike Wong seem to fit.

[IceHawk-151]

"Thats not what you said." -HDS

You're right, this is what I said.
His strength is in looking at the facts, and then deriving plausible, logical, and reasonable answers to various questions. That is why I would like to know how Curtis himself came up with these numbers. Blind Faith is not my strong point. I require proof before I put stock into something. Dr. Saxton seems to be a credible man, and if he can present a case for how he derived these yields I may well agree with him. Yet, without Saxton's presentation of the facts that he used to derive these numbers from, the listed yields in the ICS are arbitrary numbers in an official book. They can be as flawed as the listed length of the Executor throughout the Star Wars universe.

"In other words you disregard evidence, we don't.
As has been shown the actual mega-figures are dervied from the movies, many EU quotes are in agreement so it's not a problem, you OTOH have not factored in all the evidence or implications. " - HDS

You seem to have missed my point. In our minds niether of us has disregarded evidence. He have both come up with an explantation for evidence that doesn't seem to completely fit with our ideas. We rationalize things that others would site as inconsistances. The difference between us is that is appears that your Interpratation is Absolute, or nearly so.

The Admiral:
I think that the Admiral has never been part of one of these Bothan "total wars". I think that all of his information is based on old history and stories from his past. I also think that his want to engage the Vong and destroy them was being stressed by his sudden spouting of "great actions" done by his people. The man was eccentric to the point where his authority and capabilities were under scrutiny. I don't think that he was spouting out facts, but exagerations.

[Alyeska]

This debate is very amusing!

IceHawk: Did you watch the same movies I watched? Without any further thoughts or background information you can see at the first look that the SW Galaxy has an incredibly big technological advantage over the ST Galaxy:

1.) ANH: One word - Death Star. This beast can fly to any location in the Galaxy in short time and blast away whole planets with pure brute force.

This alone should convince everybody with a functioning brain. Comparing the DS to any ST ship is like comparing a B2 bomber to a 9th century viking warship.

The DS and the DS2 are not so much technological advantages, rather they are examples of Industrial Advantages. The ONLY technological advantage the DS and DS2 have is its hyper matter reactors. However these are just scaled up versions of technology already pioneered on ships like the Imperial and Victory class. So the DS and DS2 do not represent technological inovations or advantages so much as they represent raw industrial capability.

[Phil Skayhan]

1) The Asteroid
700 KT = Greg Burnet
60 KT - 480 KT = Saxton
60 KT - 16 MT = Wong
380 KT = Forgot the Site
492 KT = Me
The fire that vaporized the asteroids was clearly in the kiloton range.

Could you point me to where your work is and how you arived at that figure?

[His Divine Shadow]

You're right, this is what I said

this is what you said:
"Believe me, ICS is a copout meant only to defeat all debates"

His strength is in looking at the facts, and then deriving plausible, logical, and reasonable answers to various questions

Just like this time then, yes I _know_ it is like that, I did speak to him and he did speak on it.

That is why I would like to know how Curtis himself came up with these numbers. Blind Faith is not my strong point

Neither is asking the guy, instead you just say it's made up for vs. debates, you just made up your own instead of going to the source and asking.

Even though I have asked him, and I did get to see parts of the general logic he used, but Saxton is not allowed to relase his caluclations or speak on how he made the ICS, it would breach his contracts confidentiality agreement.
Even so I was allowed to post it for others to see, and I have, in this thread even.

I require proof before I put stock into something. Dr. Saxton seems to be a credible man, and if he can present a case for how he derived these yields I may well agree with him. Yet, without Saxton's presentation of the facts that he used to derive these numbers from, the listed yields in the ICS are arbitrary numbers in an official book. They can be as flawed as the listed length of the Executor throughout the Star Wars universe.

But we all know how unlikely that is given how he's approached the book in the same manner as his site, I have spoken to him, why don't you, instead of hanging around here saying that it is flawed?

You seem to have missed my point. In our minds niether of us has disregarded evidence. He have both come up with an explantation for evidence that doesn't seem to completely fit with our ideas. We rationalize things that others would site as inconsistances. The difference between us is that is appears that your Interpratation is Absolute, or nearly so.

The difference between us is that my interpreptation fits with the observed capabilities of the movies, books and EU in general.

You have not shown to be do it through the scientific method, like the ISD and Neb-B incident, you assumed alot of things, but presented them as facts so that it would look like a contradiction, or imply one, like 500KT being fact, and not even contemplating the possible conditions of both ships, the angles at which weapons can fire, etc.
You ignored or assumed those paramters for a specific goal, to make it look as if it contradicted the logic of the ICS, thats pseudo-science.

I think that the Admiral has never been part of one of these Bothan "total wars". I think that all of his information is based on old history and stories from his past. I also think that his want to engage the Vong and destroy them was being stressed by his sudden spouting of "great actions" done by his people. The man was eccentric to the point where his authority and capabilities were under scrutiny. I don't think that he was spouting out facts, but exagerations.

You "think" that, but until we have solid proof of his unreliability I will just look at the evidence like three Imperators bombarding a planet so heavily that the atmosphere was blown off, I look at the Imperial ships pulling thousands of G's and knowing how much energy it must require, I see planets being burned in the past, I see an official document clearly speak that the Emperor did not need the Death Star to wipe out planets, I see the Death Star itself and make simple calculations on it and conclude that the Admirals statement is technically plausible and not liable to be the exxagerated tales of an old warhound(pardon the pun).

[His Divine Shadow]

The DS and the DS2 are not so much technological advantages, rather they are examples of Industrial Advantages. The ONLY technological advantage the DS and DS2 have is its hyper matter reactors. However these are just scaled up versions of technology already pioneered on ships like the Imperial and Victory class. So the DS and DS2 do not represent technological inovations or advantages so much as they represent raw industrial capability.

Exactly our point!

They are not representative of technologies, but logistics, engineering and industry.

[BabelHuber]

The DS and the DS2 are not so much technological advantages, rather they are examples of Industrial Advantages.

Such huge industrial advantages are representing huge technological advantages, too.

After all you first need the technology and the ressources to build up an industry, not vice versa.

[Alyeska]

The DS and the DS2 are not so much technological advantages, rather they are examples of Industrial Advantages. The ONLY technological advantage the DS and DS2 have is its hyper matter reactors. However these are just scaled up versions of technology already pioneered on ships like the Imperial and Victory class. So the DS and DS2 do not represent technological inovations or advantages so much as they represent raw industrial capability.

Exactly our point!

They are not representative of technologies, but logistics, engineering and industry.

Even Icehawk agrees with this, as do I. Its really no contest on this issue. This series of advantages is why even I say the Empire can defeat the Federation even with my personal belief of a GCS matching an ISD.

[IceHawk-151]

When was the Neb-B under fire from LTLs, I can remember TIEs attacking it, but not LTLs.

Watch ROTJ again. A few Tie Interceptors and A-Wings fly between the Neb-B and the Executor. (Imperial ship was blue only Executor was blue Imperial ship was executor)
The SSD and Neb-B exchange fire that looks damn near identical to the ESB weaponry. The SSD fires like 4-6 times and the Neb-B 3-5 times. I analyzed this scene for Spacebattles awhile back, but I can't remember te exact chain of events. All I do remember was fire rate and quantity being extremely slow. (However I think more than 90% of all shots hit so accuracy at a range of a few hundred meters is pretty good.)

OT:
Look at the CRC in the scene too. It looks a little shorter than 1/2 the Neb-B.

[His Divine Shadow]

SSD?
Wasn't it an ISD? If not there's no reason they wheren't heavy weapons since we do not know the weapons layout of an SSD.

And we do not know the weapons layout of an Neb-B either, so the shots in question from it can as easily have been heavy.

Anyway, going through the scene-

Tracking imperial shots:
Shot 1, looks aimed at A-wing, nearly hits
Shot 2, also looks aimed at X-wing

Tracking Rebel shots:
Shot 1, impacts in trench, large flash
Shot 2, impacts in trench, large flash
Shot 3, impacts in trench, large flash
Shot 4, impacts in trench, large flash


So, the ISD, or SSD fires two shots, both looking aimed at the two rebel fighters, the Neb-B fires 4 shots of unknown strenght at the Imperial ship.

I don't see how this qualifies as a contradiction, or even an implication.

[His Divine Shadow]

All I do remember was fire rate and quantity being extremely slow

Shots at close ranges are slower, but as a general rule, regardless of distance it always seems to take 2-6 frames for a bolt to traverse it.

Ofcourse if this was an SSD and we assume the weapons where of a light nature then it's likely that the SSD was firing at the fighters, only two shots, both very near impacts, the Neb-B fires back rather sporadically, ofcourse if it had any sense it wouldn't make itself a real threat by firing heavy weapons and instead take advantage of the Emperors orders that forbid the Imp ships from engaging the rebel ships.

[Phil Skayhan]

The SSD and Neb-B exchange fire that looks damn near identical to the ESB weaponry.

Identical in that they're both green? Or are you saying that the bolts are the same size as well?

[IceHawk-151]

"this is what you said: Believe me, ICS is a copout meant only to defeat all debates -HDS

I think you know what I meant by that. ICS is being used by various debators as a simple debate killer.

"But we all know how unlikely that is given how he's approached the book in the same manner as his site, I have spoken to him, why don't you, instead of hanging around here saying that it is flawed?" -HDS

Simple. One must find a way to refine his arguments before actually challenging thier source. I'm also here to figure out why people are placing so much stock in the ICS.

My, Pseudo-Sciecne:
The Neb-B incident cannot imply any contridictions. You clearly see the Neb-B positioned, side by side, near the nose of the Executor. Star Destroyers are said to have thier various Light Weapons arrayed within the brim's of thier side trenches. The SSD is a larger, more powerful version of the Star Destroyer, but appears to conform with standard ISD protocals in design. The way Destroyers are designed they can place a lot of firepower towards the sides and front of thier ships. The Neb-B was underfire from multiple, seperate, emplacements. The Imperial Guns fired weapons that appeared to be the same as the ESB weapons in size and visual characteristics. If those were the same weapons, by using Saxton's numbers, the Neb-B was taking a handful of hits atleast as powerful as ~500 KT. The Neb-B that we originaly saw in ESB was a "Medical Frigate". It had the majority of it's main weapons removed to provide space. If this Neb-B was the same Medical Frigate thst accompanied the rebel fleet from Sullust it may imply the Rebel fleet is begining to drift towards the Executor. The Executor was ordered to hold position so I doubt it manuvered towards the Frigate. The Frigate was classified as a threat by the Imperials, who had already sent Fighters to attack it. Lando thought that for some reason the Tie's posed a threat to the Frigate, so he made sure he engaged them before they could attack. If the Frigate was so weak that a number of Fighter attacks could damage it, then the supposed 100 MT weaponry of the Star Destroyer's light guns could have destroyed it easily. For some reason the Neb-B was not destroyed out right. That means either the SSD had more pressing business to attend to, or the weapons that it had to bear against the Frigate were very weak.
Thanks to the SSD's size and supposed massive weapons loadout the Executor should have been able to handle the Rebel fleet advancing on it. It did not bring any heavy weapons to bear against any rebel ships that we saw. In fact all of the capital ship battle we saw, save 5 shots consisted of weapons that looked like the low level MT yield bolts from ESB.

My conclusion from what I saw in ESB and ROTJ is that the main light weapons are in the same range as the bolts from the asteroid scene. Thier use against capital ships seems to imply that they can be expected to do atleast some damage.

[IceHawk-151]

The SSD and Neb-B exchange fire that looks damn near identical to the ESB weaponry.

Identical in that they're both green? Or are you saying that the bolts are the same size as well?

Identical as in they seemed to be the same size.

[Phil Skayhan]

The Imperial Guns fired weapons that appeared to be the same as the ESB weapons in size and visual characteristics.

The bolt in ESB that detroyed the infamous asteroid was approximately 4.6 meters in width. The bolts fired by the SSD at the frigate were approximately as wide as 10 meters.

My conclusion from what I saw in ESB and ROTJ is that the main light weapons are in the same range as the bolts from the asteroid scene. Thier use against capital ships seems to imply that they can be expected to do atleast some damage.

What may be concluded if the weapons are the same in the trenches of the ISD and SSD is that the weapons may have variable power settings.

[Anarchist Bunny]

The SSD and Neb-B exchange fire that looks damn near identical to the ESB weaponry.

Identical in that they're both green? Or are you saying that the bolts are the same size as well?

Identical as in they seemed to be the same size.

Except your basing that measurement on comparasions of two different sized things, SSDs are about 11 times the size of the ISD in length. When we see the ISD in the opening it appears much larger then it does when a ISD is below the Executor's Hanger.

[IceHawk-151]

"The bolt in ESB that detroyed the infamous asteroid was approximately 4.6 meters in width. The bolts fired by the SSD at the frigate were approximately as wide as 10 meters. " - Phil

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did we actually see any of the bolts from a front view in that scene? I know we saw side views of them, but I can't be sure if we saw a fore view.

Variable Power Settings:
Is there anywhere in the official literature that states Turbolaser's have variable power settings. I've read the majority of the EU books and have yet to run into that idea. Is it possible that one of the other ICS or other source stated this?

[Phil Skayhan]

"The bolt in ESB that detroyed the infamous asteroid was approximately 4.6 meters in width. The bolts fired by the SSD at the frigate were approximately as wide as 10 meters. " - Phil

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did we actually see any of the bolts from a front view in that scene? I know we saw side views of them, but I can't be sure if we saw a fore view.

The bolt as it is fired by the SSD from the side is what was used. The known height of the trench was used to scale it.

Variable Power Settings:
Is there anywhere in the official literature that states Turbolaser's have variable power settings. I've read the majority of the EU books and have yet to run into that idea. Is it possible that one of the other ICS or other source stated this?

It is not supported anywhere to my knowlege. But if the trench weapons are the same in for both the SSD and ISD, then how would you explain the differences?

[His Divine Shadow]

I think you know what I meant by that. ICS is being used by various debators as a simple debate killer

No, how I understood it was that you implied that Saxton himself made the numbers for that particular purpose.

Simple. One must find a way to refine his arguments before actually challenging thier source. I'm also here to figure out why people are placing so much stock in the ICS

Because Saxton is reliable, because his site was a reason for him being hired.

You clearly see the Neb-B positioned, side by side, near the nose of the Executor. Star Destroyers are said to have thier various Light Weapons arrayed within the brim's of thier side trenches.

It is certanly possible, in the Executors case it's not certain though, even so the bolts in question fired from the Executor was not seemingly aimed at the Nebulon in the first place.

The Neb-B was underfire from multiple, seperate, emplacements.

Only two shots where fired, only two, and in the direction of fighters, it certanly

It had the majority of it's main weapons removed to provide space. If this Neb-B was the same Medical Frigate thst accompanied the rebel fleet from Sullust it may imply the Rebel fleet is begining to drift towards the Executor. The Executor was ordered to hold position so I doubt it manuvered towards the Frigate.
The Frigate was classified as a threat by the Imperials, who had already sent Fighters to attack it.

No, it wasn't, the whole purpose of the attacks by fighters where to keep the rebels busy, not as a serious attack, the Imperials where not to try and destroy the rebel fleet, that was the purpose of the DS2.

If the Frigate was so weak that a number of Fighter attacks could damage it, then the supposed 100 MT weaponry of the Star Destroyer's light guns could have destroyed it easily. For some reason the Neb-B was not destroyed out right. That means either the SSD had more pressing business to attend to, or the weapons that it had to bear against the Frigate were very weak.

You are operating under a false premise, the fighter attacks where merely diversionary tactics, not to seriously injure the rebels.

Thanks to the SSD's size and supposed massive weapons loadout the Executor should have been able to handle the Rebel fleet advancing on it.

But it wasn't allowed to by the Emperor, they where not to engage, only stand in their way and

It did not bring any heavy weapons to bear against any rebel ships that we saw. In fact all of the capital ship battle we saw, save 5 shots consisted of weapons that looked like the low level MT yield bolts from ESB.

Two shots, not five.
I have the clip here.
As for what they look like, you're not likely to see any explosions like that because SW shields absorb energy and the diffusion systems turn the energy into neutrinos.

My conclusion from what I saw in ESB and ROTJ is that the main light weapons are in the same range as the bolts from the asteroid scene. Thier use against capital ships seems to imply that they can be expected to do atleast some damage.

My conclusion is that it's not used against capital ships, it was only two shots aimed at two figters that instead happened to hit the Neb-B, now one would wonder why the Neb-B even bothered to fire because it would not have a chance in hell to hurt the SSD even with heavy weapons, I think it was just frustrated gunners firing potshots.

[His Divine Shadow]

Is there anywhere in the official literature that states Turbolaser's have variable power settings. I've read the majority of the EU books and have yet to run into that idea. Is it possible that one of the other ICS or other source stated this?

ICS states it for a few occasions, Darksaber speaks of setting turbolasers to full power.

We also have the same for blasters, in the EGWT amongst others, and the AOTC: Visual Dictionary.

There are certanly more sources but I'd have to look for them.

[Phil Skayhan]

Is there anywhere in the official literature that states Turbolaser's have variable power settings. quote]

ICS states it for a few occasions, Darksaber speaks of setting turbolasers to full power.

We also have the same for blasters, in the EGWT amongst others, and the AOTC: Visual Dictionary.

There are certanly more sources but I'd have to look for them.

Thank you.

[His Divine Shadow]

Pg. 39: Tibanna gas is carried in a replaceable cartridge that lasts about 500 shots, depending on the weapon's settings and traits.

(ref: Attack of the Clones: The Visual Dictionary)

Pg. 238: "Seniar knew what they were- turbolasers on short-range settings."

(ref: Rogue Planet)

Short range settings for TL's? Maybe thats what different bolt speeds are about.

Pg. 6: The side-mounted powerpack supplies enough energy for 100 shots. The E-11 can be set for a variety of power levels, from stun to full blast.

(ref: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology)

Pg. 322: Wedge gave them a smile-humorless, feral. He flicked his lasers over to stutterfire and sprayed the crowd of enemy warriors, saw some of them dive back the way they'd come, saw others caught in the beams.
Even set on stutterfire, where each beam was fired at the lowest useful intensity available to an X-wing weapon, the lasers were meant for vehicles, not individuals. Striking the Yuuzhan Vong, the beams superheated flesh past the point of cooking, past the point of boiling, straight to the state of gas or even plasma. Warriors hit by the beams simply exploded, torsos reduced to nothingness, limbs hurled in all directions.

(ref: Enemy Lines II - Rebel Stand)

The ICS also indicates vairable yields yes:

Pg. 10: Manufacturer: Kuat Systems Engineering, subsidiary of Kuat Drive Yards (fighter); TransGalMeg Industries Inc. (hyperdrive ring)
Make: Delta-7 /Aethersprite/ light interceptor; Syliure-31 long-range hyperdrive module
Dimensions: length 8m; width 3.92m; depth 1.44m
Max. speed (in standard atmosphere): 12,000 kph
Max. acceleration (linear, in open space): 5,000G
Hyperdrive: Class 1.0 (effective range 150,000 light-years)
Armament: 2 dual laser cannons (1 kiloton per shot max.)

(ref: Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections)

Note the max, there are more quotes but these ought to do.

[His Divine Shadow]

Interesting quote of what one ISD could do:

Pg. 303: "As we approach in-system, the Basilisk's small volunteer crew will begin a self-destruct countdown. The Gorgon will run interference until we reach our target, at which time we will turn aside. At full speed the Basilisk will plunge into the atmosphere of Coruscant. It will be unstoppable."

"When the Basilisk detonates..." Daala said. She paused as the planetary image flashed with a brilliant ring of fire that sent ripples igniting through the atmosphere. All the lights on the night side of the planet went dark. Cracks of fire appeared across the land masses.

"The explosion will be sufficient to level the buildings on half a continent. The shock wave traveling through the planetary core could topple cities on the other side of the world. The underground resevoirs will break open. Tidal waves will cause damage along the coasts. For the price of one Star Destroyer, we can lay waste to Coruscant."

(ref: Dark Apprentice)

[IceHawk-151]

"My conclusion is that it's not used against capital ships, it was only two shots aimed at two figters that instead happened to hit the Neb-B, now one would wonder why the Neb-B even bothered to fire because it would not have a chance in hell to hurt the SSD even with heavy weapons, I think it was just frustrated gunners firing potshots." _HDS

Frustrated gunners wasting energy and calling more attention to the Frigate. That vessel, I'm guessing, was the Medical Frigate. I say this because I do not remember seeing any more than that single Nebulon-B. For some reason the Captain of that vessel order his ship into close quarters combat with the biggest capital ship on the enemy side. The shots fired by the Frigate were aimed at the Executor itself. The Executor's shots may have been aimed at the fighters, however the speed of the Rebel ships and the number of tie fighters to deal with them make me doubt it. It seemed to be that the SSD was shooting at the Frigate, and the fighters had gotten in the way. Either way the Frigate itself was engaging the the SSD. It must have thought it could do some damage, other wise it is simply commiting suicide.