Would the Scimitar be of Interest to the Empire?

[Keevan_Colton]

I'd just like to make a little point about the Death Star.
Excelsior has made a big deal of the fact it lacks a cloak, though it should be explained to him that this goes counter to the planned use for the death star.
It was meant to be a weapon of terror, something to inspire fear in those that would defy the will of the Emperor and to be used as a threat against those that would not comply at any given time.
To go around blowing up perfectly servicable planets is not a good tactic....to blow up a few and remind people that if they step out of line they are next is a much better approach.....if you keep it cloaked its effectevness as a detterrent is reduced....
It could be argued that having it cloaked would make it more terrifying...but in general something you can see will make a much more immediate effect upon your attitude than something that might be out there somewhere.....
The DS was designed to come along and remind the locals wherever it was, who ran the galaxy.

Keevan.

[Master of Ossus]

Yeah. Th difference is that the SCimitar's better.

Yes, the thing has MT level shields, is slow as fuck in FTL, and would get blown up by a corvette, but it's better then the Death Star.

Just so you guys know, some recent calculations that I've run (designed to be enormously generous) have pegged the Scimitar's shielding at being a few tens of kilotons, and not MT level. While Ender was doubtless being generous, I figured that for future reference it should be noted. This, of course, assumes that the ramming actually did penetrate the Scimitar's shields, and employed no "tricks" in doing so. That assumption is somewhat questionable, but I'll entertain it because the incident seems inconsistent with numerous other calculations of Trek shield strength.

[HemlockGrey]

I suddenly see a huge market for the Medusa weapon as an instant garden gnome creator.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

I suddenly see a huge market for the Medusa weapon as an instant garden gnome creator.

I will not have the hard word people put into making my brothers be replaced with Trek tech.

Even for bringing up the idea, you must be punished!

*arms RPG-Rocket Propeled Gnome, and braces over shoulder*

GNOME!!!!!![/size]

And I think you've learned your lesson.

[Captain Kruger]

Could Excelsior quite possibly be the dumbest Trekkie ever to grace this board? I think we have a front runner for All-Time Village Idiot.

[SirNitram]

Sigh.. I miss a chance to smack around a Trekkie Moron. What a pity. And he's so simply stupid.

[Darth Wong]

One last note on the issue of Trek cloaking: in "Relics", Geordi said that impulse drive really hasn't changed at all since Scotty's era. Therefore, any and all speculation about vastly improved/altered/redesigned "no exhaust" impulse drive is not only scientifically laughable, but explicitly denied in canon.

[Alyeska]

One last note on the issue of Trek cloaking: in "Relics", Geordi said that impulse drive really hasn't changed at all since Scotty's era. Therefore, any and all speculation about vastly improved/altered/redesigned "no exhaust" impulse drive is not only scientifically laughable, but explicitly denied in canon.

All it says is that Federation Impulse systems have not change all that much. Doesn't say anything about Klingon or Romulan systems. The Federation has not had the need to mask its engine systems quite like the Romulans and Klingons. And when it comes to the Defiant, they do indeed mask their impulse systems. The engines are surounded by armor.

[Darth Wong]

All it says is that Federation Impulse systems have not change all that much. Doesn't say anything about Klingon or Romulan systems.

But it puts the burden of proof squarely on you, even more so than before, and you haven't met it.

The Federation has not had the need to mask its engine systems quite like the Romulans and Klingons. And when it comes to the Defiant, they do indeed mask their impulse systems. The engines are surounded by armor.

How does that mask the EMISSIONS of their impulse systems, which are left BEHIND the ship? Do I need to draw a picture?

[2000AD]

*Looks at excelsior's stupidity*
MY EYE'S! THE GOGGLE DO NOTHING!

[NecronLord]

The Federation has not had the need to mask its engine systems quite like the Romulans and Klingons. And when it comes to the Defiant, they do indeed mask their impulse systems. The engines are surounded by armor.

How does that mask the EMISSIONS of their impulse systems, which are left BEHIND the ship? Do I need to draw a picture?

Please do so... we can use it again in future.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Yeah, it's pretty bad.

I started thinking about how to hid impulse exhaust, and looked at sea & Air craft.

Simple Move slowly, and figure out a way to dispurse your trail or make it look more like the rest of collection of space gasses....

The best I came up with was the completly cop-out Clancy rip-off:

Catapiller Impulse (Comming to the Romulon or Klingon Ubership "Red October no doubt)

[Alyeska]

All it says is that Federation Impulse systems have not change all that much. Doesn't say anything about Klingon or Romulan systems.

But it puts the burden of proof squarely on you, even more so than before, and you haven't met it.

How so? I have demonstrated that these are different governments using different design philosophies. Do you have any proof that the Romulans use the same Impulse system the Federation does? We know they have different power systems and mostly different weapon systems.

How does that mask the EMISSIONS of their impulse systems, which are left BEHIND the ship? Do I need to draw a picture?

The question isn't how the mask the emissions. We KNOW that they used emission tracking technology to find cloaked ships in the past. The fact that they do not use it in the future clearly indicates cloaking technology has advanced. We know that cloaking and sensor technology are constantly changing. We don't known how they did it, but we know they did it. The only emissions the E-E could even look for to find the Scimitar were anti-protons and tachyons. They didn't find either. That indicates the Scimitar managed to mask emissions that older cloaks could not.

[Darth Wong]

But it puts the burden of proof squarely on you, even more so than before, and you haven't met it.

How so? I have demonstrated that these are different governments using different design philosophies. Do you have any proof that the Romulans use the same Impulse system the Federation does? We know they have different power systems and mostly different weapon systems.

"Appeal to ignorance" fallacy. We don't know that they use the same system, therefore they must use something completely different? Fine, prove that this other technology exists at all. You can't even explain what it is.

The question isn't how the mask the emissions. We KNOW that they used emission tracking technology to find cloaked ships in the past. The fact that they do not use it in the future clearly indicates cloaking technology has advanced.

Bullshit; you are assuming they must have a good reason, instead of simply being incompetent. They've stopped using all manner of technologies for no good reason, so don't tell me they must have a good reason. For all we know, they outlawed the fucking things in the Khitomer Accord, much as ABM systems were outlawed in real-life. They don't even have fucking mortars for ground troops any more!

You are also ignoring the fact that they did NOT use the most obvious method of tracking, which is passive-infrared. Instead, they sent out a sniffer torp. A sniffer torp is only going to work if the enemy is close, and if they've been maneuvering around so they've left lots of nice trails. It is a special application.

We know that cloaking and sensor technology are constantly changing. We don't known how they did it, but we know they did it.

Circular logic: we know they must have done it because ... we know they must have done it. Sorry, but you haven't got proof. All you've got is a non sequitur that you're desperately trying to stretch into proof.

The only emissions the E-E could even look for to find the Scimitar were anti-protons and tachyons. They didn't find either. That indicates the Scimitar managed to mask emissions that older cloaks could not.

Older cloaks let ionized gas out, which is inevitable since they need to provide IMPULSE, and that means they have to eject something out of the back of the ship. There is no reason why any ship should be dumping antiprotons and tachyons out of itself; their stupidity in looking for a likely nonexistent emission hardly validates your claim about how they must have been competent enough to detect cloaked ships unless they found a way to violate the laws of thermodynamics.

[Alyeska]

But it puts the burden of proof squarely on you, even more so than before, and you haven't met it.

How so? I have demonstrated that these are different governments using different design philosophies. Do you have any proof that the Romulans use the same Impulse system the Federation does? We know they have different power systems and mostly different weapon systems.

"Appeal to ignorance" fallacy. We don't know that they use the same system, therefore they must use something completely different? Fine, prove that this other technology exists at all. You can't even explain what it is.

You can no more provide evidence that they have the same systems as I can prove they have different systems. Your argument is just as baseless as mine.

The question isn't how the mask the emissions. We KNOW that they used emission tracking technology to find cloaked ships in the past. The fact that they do not use it in the future clearly indicates cloaking technology has advanced.

Bullshit; you are assuming they must have a good reason, instead of simply being incompetent. They've stopped using all manner of technologies for no good reason, so don't tell me they must have a good reason. For all we know, they outlawed the fucking things in the Khitomer Accord, much as ABM systems were outlawed in real-life. They don't even have fucking mortars for ground troops any more!

You have to prove that they would not use such a technology later. We already KNOW that cloaking technology has advanced. It is LOGICAL to assume that they do not use this tracking technology because they CAN'T. It is ILLOGICAL to assume that one side is totally incompitent.

You are also ignoring the fact that they did NOT use the most obvious method of tracking, which is passive-infrared. Instead, they sent out a sniffer torp. A sniffer torp is only going to work if the enemy is close, and if they've been maneuvering around so they've left lots of nice trails. It is a special application.

It ever occur to you that they are masking their heat signature? Wonderful thing cooling units are.

We know that cloaking and sensor technology are constantly changing. We don't known how they did it, but we know they did it.

Circular logic: we know they must have done it because ... we know they must have done it. Sorry, but you haven't got proof. All you've got is a non sequitur that you're desperately trying to stretch into proof.

That is not circular logic. The fact that you have evidence and statements from TNG that Cloaking technology has been improving and sensor technology is improving in attempts to counter cloaking technology is proof enough that the older cloaks are rendered useless. There is nothing circular about the reasoning, its called common sense.

The only emissions the E-E could even look for to find the Scimitar were anti-protons and tachyons. They didn't find either. That indicates the Scimitar managed to mask emissions that older cloaks could not.

Older cloaks let ionized gas out, which is inevitable since they need to provide IMPULSE, and that means they have to eject something out of the back of the ship. There is no reason why any ship should be dumping antiprotons and tachyons out of itself; their stupidity in looking for a likely nonexistent emission hardly validates your claim about how they must have been competent enough to detect cloaked ships unless they found a way to violate the laws of thermodynamics.

You mean other then the fact that Tachyon detection grids have been used to detect ships in the past and anti-proton scanning has found the Defiant on multiple occassions? You assume that they can not mask their drive emissions. Here is how I look at it. In the past they looked for drive emissions to find cloaked ships. We know that cloaking technology is constantly advancing. We know that they no longer look for drive emissions. Logical conclussion, drive emissions can be masked. ILLOGICAL conclussion, their fucking idiots.

[Darth Yoshi]

How so? I have demonstrated that these are different governments using different design philosophies. Do you have any proof that the Romulans use the same Impulse system the Federation does? We know they have different power systems and mostly different weapon systems.

"Appeal to ignorance" fallacy. We don't know that they use the same system, therefore they must use something completely different? Fine, prove that this other technology exists at all. You can't even explain what it is.

You can no more provide evidence that they have the same systems as I can prove they have different systems. Your argument is just as baseless as mine.

Well, considering that the Voyager crew was able to integrate parts from the Delta Quadrant into the ship, it's not too farfetched to assume that most species have compatible technology.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up? Fact is we know that the Enterprise searched for such a thing in ST:6 and found a cloaked ship. We know that cloaking technology advanced and we know that they no longer search for ships using those means. The logical conclussion is that they can somehow mask the emissions. The burden of proof is not up to me to prove how, it is LOGICAL to assume that they do it through a means that we are yet to discover. The burden of proof lies on those to prove why the Federation doesn't search for the emissions. And using "Because they are stupid" is a MAJOR copout.

[Exonerate]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up? Fact is we know that the Enterprise searched for such a thing in ST:6 and found a cloaked ship. We know that cloaking technology advanced and we know that they no longer search for ships using those means. The logical conclussion is that they can somehow mask the emissions. The burden of proof is not up to me to prove how, it is LOGICAL to assume that they do it through a means that we are yet to discover. The burden of proof lies on those to prove why the Federation doesn't search for the emissions. And using "Because they are stupid" is a MAJOR copout.

On the other hand, Feddies have displayed an incredible amount of stupidity in the past. This wouldn't be too farfetched.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up? Fact is we know that the Enterprise searched for such a thing in ST:6 and found a cloaked ship. We know that cloaking technology advanced and we know that they no longer search for ships using those means. The logical conclussion is that they can somehow mask the emissions. The burden of proof is not up to me to prove how, it is LOGICAL to assume that they do it through a means that we are yet to discover. The burden of proof lies on those to prove why the Federation doesn't search for the emissions. And using "Because they are stupid" is a MAJOR copout.

On the other hand, Feddies have displayed an incredible amount of stupidity in the past. This wouldn't be too farfetched.

I can use the same arguments with Star Wars in regards to both the Empire and the Rebellion. In the end all we have is a "Who is the dumbest?" debate and you get nowhere. Typically it is wise to assume that both sides are competent.

[Darth Wong]

You can no more provide evidence that they have the same systems as I can prove they have different systems. Your argument is just as baseless as mine.

Wrong. You cannot even provide evidence that a different type of system exists at all. Your argument is no different from the argument that there is no more proof for God's nonexistence than his existence.

You have to prove that they would not use such a technology later.

Wrong. You have to prove that it exists before I need to explain why they wouldn't use it.

It ever occur to you that they are masking their heat signature? Wonderful thing cooling units are.

Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look like a jack-ass? Cooling units only INCREASE the overall heat output of a system; they function by moving heat from one place to another, not by actually destroying it. Are the laws of thermodynamics completely alien to you?

That is not circular logic. The fact that you have evidence and statements from TNG that Cloaking technology has been improving and sensor technology is improving in attempts to counter cloaking technology is proof enough that the older cloaks are rendered useless.

But not proof that they have found a way to ignore thermodynamics. Saying that B is greater than A does not prove that B can achieve some arbitrary goal C.

There is nothing circular about the reasoning, its called common sense.

If there's one thing I've learned after years of debating science and sci-fi, it is that the laws of thermodynamics are not common sense. Unfortunately for you, they're still accurate.

You mean other then the fact that Tachyon detection grids have been used to detect ships in the past and anti-proton scanning has found the Defiant on multiple occassions?

Tachyon detection grids work the same way laser grids do; you have to supply the tachyons. The target doesn't conveniently emit them for you! Why do you think you need a GRID, with connections at both ends of each link? And if the Defiant dumps anti-protons to its environment, that's just shitty design; it means it can't contain its antimatter.

You assume that they can not mask their drive emissions.

It is not an "assumption" to apply the laws of physics and point out that you've provided no reason to conclude that they are ineffective.

Here is how I look at it. In the past they looked for drive emissions to find cloaked ships. We know that cloaking technology is constantly advancing. We know that they no longer look for drive emissions. Logical conclussion, drive emissions can be masked. ILLOGICAL conclussion, their fucking idiots.

Wrong. First, we know they ARE fucking idiots. Second, that was a special situation in ST6; close range, ship leaving lots of nice trails around so that the sniffer torp might accidentally stumble into one and follow it to its source. This wouldn't work in most situations, so don't bullshit me.

So far, all you've done is make yourself look like a scientific ignoramus. The part about cooling units was particularly funny.

[Darth Wong]

Alyeska, how is it supposed to move without ejecting some level of exhaust out the back?

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up?

ROTFLMAO!!! How do you produce a net IMPULSE if you grab your own ejecta back up? Were you sleeping through science class?

[Durandal]

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up?

The ejecta are what make the movement possible. If you suck them up, it's akin to strapping a rocket on the back of an equally powerful vacuum cleaner and expecting it to go somewhere. This is bordering on Wile E. Coyote physics.

[Alyeska]

You can no more provide evidence that they have the same systems as I can prove they have different systems. Your argument is just as baseless as mine.

Wrong. You cannot even provide evidence that a different type of system exists at all. Your argument is no different from the argument that there is no more proof for God's nonexistence than his existence.

And where is yours indicating that they use identical technology? Your only example is for the Federation, not the Romulans.

You have to prove that they would not use such a technology later.

Wrong. You have to prove that it exists before I need to explain why they wouldn't use it.

Easy. Star Trek 6 proves that it exists.

It ever occur to you that they are masking their heat signature? Wonderful thing cooling units are.

Are you deliberately trying to make yourself look like a jack-ass? Cooling units only INCREASE the overall heat output of a system; they function by moving heat from one place to another, not by actually destroying it. Are the laws of thermodynamics completely alien to you?

Chemical cooling systems do not create heat quite like that. You have to prove why they would search for it. Cloaking devices are supossed to hide you from the enemy. Naturally you try and search for possible signatures. The fact that they DON'T search for heat is kinda a key indicator here.

That is not circular logic. The fact that you have evidence and statements from TNG that Cloaking technology has been improving and sensor technology is improving in attempts to counter cloaking technology is proof enough that the older cloaks are rendered useless.

But not proof that they have found a way to ignore thermodynamics. Saying that B is greater than A does not prove that B can achieve some arbitrary goal C.

There is such a thing as masking and minimizing, not making disapear. The idea behind cloaking devices is to hide from your enemy. You do things to hide certain tell tale signs. Does that means these signs have to go away? No, just minimized or hidden in some fashion or another. Its impossible for modern aircraft and helicopters to not show any heat, yet we have heat reducing technology to defeat our sensors. Its entirely possible they can do things to reduce their signature to a point in which sensors can't find these telltale signs, doesn't mean they have disapeared.

There is nothing circular about the reasoning, its called common sense.

If there's one thing I've learned after years of debating science and sci-fi, it is that the laws of thermodynamics are not common sense. Unfortunately for you, they're still accurate.

We already know that impossible things happen in scifi. There are things that happen that we can't possibly fathom why they happen. We just known that they happen. You can't always take our current understanding of science and apply it to scifi.

You mean other then the fact that Tachyon detection grids have been used to detect ships in the past and anti-proton scanning has found the Defiant on multiple occassions?

Tachyon detection grids work the same way laser grids do; you have to supply the tachyons. The target doesn't conveniently emit them for you! Why do you think you need a GRID, with connections at both ends of each link? And if the Defiant dumps anti-protons to its environment, that's just shitty design; it means it can't contain its antimatter.

What it says is that cloaked ships do not break the laws of thermo dynamics. They still have emissions of one sort or another but they try and minimize and mask these emissions. All we known is that the Scimitar does a better job then previous cloaking designs. It masks its emissions to the point where Federation sensors can't see it.

You assume that they can not mask their drive emissions.

It is not an "assumption" to apply the laws of physics and point out that you've provided no reason to conclude that they are ineffective.

You can't always apply science to scifi. Regardless there is a difference between masking and reducing your emissions compared to completely removing them.

Here is how I look at it. In the past they looked for drive emissions to find cloaked ships. We know that cloaking technology is constantly advancing. We know that they no longer look for drive emissions. Logical conclussion, drive emissions can be masked. ILLOGICAL conclussion, their fucking idiots.

Wrong. First, we know they ARE fucking idiots. Second, that was a special situation in ST6; close range, ship leaving lots of nice trails around so that the sniffer torp might accidentally stumble into one and follow it to its source. This wouldn't work in most situations, so don't bullshit me.

So your entire debate stance is that the Federation is really stupid? So now we degenerate into the "Who is dumber?" debate. Both Star Wars and Star Trek show incredible levels of tactical and strategic stupidity. Isn't it smarter to assume that both sides are competent rather then complete idiots?

So far, all you've done is make yourself look like a scientific ignoramus. The part about cooling units was particularly funny.

So far all you have done is make yourself look like an arogant ass.

[Alyeska]

Ever think that maybe they have something to suck that exaust back up?

The ejecta are what make the movement possible. If you suck them up, it's akin to strapping a rocket on the back of an equally powerful vacuum cleaner and expecting it to go somewhere. This is bordering on Wile E. Coyote physics.

I understand that. However the ejecta is what moves the ship to a point. After that it just becomes useless emission. If you had a system that allowed it to propell the ship THEN pick up the emission, you have a way to mask your emissions.