The Complete Incredible Cross Sections released

[Imperial Overlord]

Crits aren't autohits. Only natural 20s (which also threaten criticals. Remember criticals need to be confirmed, which means you have to roll the dice and get another hit).

There's also the little detail of negative hitpoints for PCs.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Crits aren't autohits. Only natural 20s (which also threaten criticals. Remember criticals need to be confirmed, which means you have to roll the dice and get another hit).

After checking the D20 SRD it appears you're right about this, I'm sorry, I've let someone borrow it and I'm forgetting some things. Using heroic ability scores the average character should have a Defense (AC) of 10 + 2 (Dexterity) + 5 Class Defense Bonus (Another D20 variant rule) for a Defense of 17 at 3rd level, a 3rd Level Stormtrooper has a base attack bonus of +4 (as humans they get a bonus feat that they can put anywhere, but a generic ST takes Weapons Focus: Blaster Rifle) for a 40% (?) chance of hitting.

There's also the little detail of negative hitpoints for PCs.

For D&D, yes, however, as noted, the SWRPG currently uses the more lethal Wound and Vitality Point Variant.

[Edward Yee]

Which according to Saga Edition Preview 1 (written by one of the writers) has been replaced by the PCs getting three times their Hit Dice in hp at 1st level...

Also, heroes get triple their Hit Die at first level, so they're better able to survive a few blaster shots without going down for the count. We wanted a group of 1st-level heroes to be able to fight stormtroopers in the first game session, if the GM so wished. Star Wars characters fight bad guys, and lots of them, and the Saga Edition rules let the heroes jump right into light combat. Stormtroopers are still pretty threatening at 1st level, but now heroes have enough resources and abilities that deciding whether to fight or flee is actually a tough decision.

Interesting stat block at the bottom, btw... (In terms of seeing how this vision of "Star Wars as it should be in RPG" turns out.)

[Ritterin Sophia]

Which according to Saga Edition Preview 1 (written by one of the writers) has been replaced by the PCs getting three times their Hit Dice in hp at 1st level

Your point being? We were discussing how this would affect the game, and as everyone who plays D&D knows a hit is a hit to the body, with this we have characters with pretty good odds at surviving a blaster bolt, where in canon we see someone take a direct hit they either die or are nearly dead (and about to die without quick medical attention), which works perfectly well with the VP/WP System. I'll also add that Saga has been planned so that it's release coincides with Celebration IV, so for now, that's not RAW. However, I don't see why you'd be so amazed by the stat block, it's the current one in use with D&D.

[Imperial Overlord]

For D&D, yes, however, as noted, the SWRPG currently uses the more lethal Wound and Vitality Point Variant.

I know, that model still includes negative hitpoints, unless my memory is badly failing me. The only PC casualties that I had back when I was running the game were a turbolasered shuttle and a couple of blue on blue incidents (Sith apprentice PCs are so fun).

[Ritterin Sophia]

For D&D, yes, however, as noted, the SWRPG currently uses the more lethal Wound and Vitality Point Variant.

I know, that model still includes negative hitpoints, unless my memory is badly failing me.

To a degree your memory is, WP's basically replace negative Hitpoints, critical hits don't do x2/3/4 instead they deal damage right to wound points. For example: your average PC has a Con of 14 and thus 14 WP's, a blaster rifle does an average of 13 points of damage, so on a crit the character needs to save or be knocked unconcious and try to treat his own injuries or be treated with a Force Heal or Treat Injury Check by someone else to stabilize otherwise he bleeds away his last WP and dies. The system assures that even high level characters need to exercise caution when fighting groups as even the lowliest of thugs can get lucky, very lethal, which is why I prefer it over HPs, otherwise you have Nobles (IE Padme and ANH Leia) taking direct hits with a blaster rifle and not even flinching. I know it's a game, but I still like my Star Wars games to at least try and have some semblance to what is stated in the EU and shown in the movies, and goddamnit that means when you get hit by a blaster you're fucked.

[Vehrec]

Yeah, I agree. Same reason I want to play CoC with CoC rules, because things are more deadly and in tune with the feel of the setting. In this case? Blaster should be Bad News, no matter who you are. Maybe even Make the Stormies elite again by giving them vitality points. Make them somthing other than a joke.
Oh great. . . I'm homerulling again.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Personally, I make Stormies and CT's Soldiers rather than Thugs, Thug is good enough for the Imperial Navy Troopers, but Stormtroopers are the 1337.

Now that I think about it, perhaps we should ask a mod to split this into it's own thread... we've gotten rather off-topic.

[Cykeisme]

Vitality Points are a nice touch, I like the VP/WP system. Too bad the Saga Edition books are going to phase it out. VPs "officially" represent a hero's ability to twist away at the last moment even after their "Defense" is defeated, but lets face it, we all know what VPs represent: character shields

General Schatten, a character does not die until he/she reaches -10 WP. Zero WP does not kill.

Btw guys, while the Stormie stats in the Revised Core Rulebook only has Thug levels, Wizards' official conversion of SW minis figures have Heroic Class levels for Elite Stormtroopers and Stormtrooper Officers; they have a few levels of Soldier, and even a level or two of Noble for Officers simply to simulate their commander effects.
Same treatment for elite Clone Trooper mini characters. Delta Squad's Republic Commandos are Thug 5/Soldier 3, btw.
So, Vehrec, you may be using house rules, but they're not too far from what the official guys eventually came up with, either.

[Lord Poe]

Good effin' lord. CAn be get back on topic, and stow the D&D shit?

[Edward Yee]

Now that I think about it, perhaps we should ask a mod to split this into it's own thread... we've gotten rather off-topic.

Good effin' lord. CAn be get back on topic, and stow the D&D shit?

Agreed, and I apologize in turn for being the start thereof.

To be topical, I would like to ask those who have the book if Complete ICS leaves out all of the EU vehicles? (i.e. the TIE Defender.)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I saw the book today... and well, the last few pages smack of some idiot's attempt to justify WEG stats.

[Bounty]

I saw the book today... and well, the last few pages smack of some idiot's attempt to justify WEG stats.

How so? What's on the last pages?

[Mange]

I saw the book today... and well, the last few pages smack of some idiot's attempt to justify WEG stats.

So I've heard. I'm still hesitating whether I'll get this one or the Complete Locations...

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I saw the book today... and well, the last few pages smack of some idiot's attempt to justify WEG stats.

How so? What's on the last pages?

A page with all the EPI IV-VI stats, including that damnable 60 turbos 60 ions for ISDs.

Bastards and retards never give up do they?

[Illuminatus Primus]

Bah, they got some nobody with no education to fill the new parts. Some fanbootlicker who just found old stats and copied. At least Dr. Reynolds, an anthropologist, advanced us somewhat and did something.

[Jim Raynor]

I saw the book today... and well, the last few pages smack of some idiot's attempt to justify WEG stats.

How so? What's on the last pages?

A page with all the EPI IV-VI stats, including that damnable 60 turbos 60 ions for ISDs.

Bastards and retards never give up do they?

Jesus Christ. Even though they were working with and included the original ICS, which BLATANTLY contradicts WEG's 60/60 bullshit? How is that shit even supposed to be combined without contradicting?

[Mange]

So, they managed to ruin the ICS as well... And how the heck did that happen?

[VT-16]

60 turbos 60 ions

As long as they are not defined as heavy guns, WEG whores can go fuck themselves if they think this somehow validates their idiocy.

I was not impressed by Dougherty's contribution to the SW:CL (mostly because I thought it would detail the four cw planets), so I'm not surprised this is less than stellar.

[Vympel]

The nonsensical and baseless "60 turbolasers and 60 ion claim" can, as far as I'm concerned, be admitted as part of it's "miscellaneous unseen weaponry"- given the ICS proper (ie the damn cross-section of the movie model- ie. the highest canon) identifies the various different types ov visible weaponry, there's no basis for anyone to claim that the HTLs etc do not exist.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The nonsensical and baseless "60 turbolasers and 60 ion claim" can, as far as I'm concerned, be admitted as part of it's "miscellaneous unseen weaponry"- given the ICS proper (ie the damn cross-section of the movie model- ie. the highest canon) identifies the various different types ov visible weaponry, there's no basis for anyone to claim that the HTLs etc do not exist.

Unfortunately, the stats for the ISD was listed as a complete rip from the WEG books....

There is no basis that the HTLs don't exists... but given the necrotic fools at Theforce.Net however..

[Vympel]

Unfortunately, the stats for the ISD was listed as a complete rip from the WEG books....

I know, but the fact remains that the guns we can see and which are labelled on the cross-section are no less valid because of it. I really don't care about that- the fools of TFN have invested their position in claiming the invented WEG numbers override the film model, after all.

[Connor MacLeod]

I saw the book today... and well, the last few pages smack of some idiot's attempt to justify WEG stats.

Someone's actually using much older source material (which does use recycled WEG stats in some regards, but it did have other stats.. like the 47 million km DS superlaser range)

In a way its kind of amusing, because don't many of the Saxton bashers keep insisting the "newer" material always overrides the older? Its rather amusing then that OLDER sources (and this one I've had around for nearly a decade, I've got a hardcover copy of the book soemwhere) Evidently not everyone subscribes to that idea.

[Connor MacLeod]

The nonsensical and baseless "60 turbolasers and 60 ion claim" can, as far as I'm concerned, be admitted as part of it's "miscellaneous unseen weaponry"- given the ICS proper (ie the damn cross-section of the movie model- ie. the highest canon) identifies the various different types ov visible weaponry, there's no basis for anyone to claim that the HTLs etc do not exist.

Weapons which are probably seen in the beginning of ANH (Trench guns) firing on the T4, and are mentioned in the novelization. Hell, thsoe guns probably give justification to the idea that the wedge design has offensive benefits (the heavy turrets certainly don't.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Unfortunately, the stats for the ISD was listed as a complete rip from the WEG books....

There is no basis that the HTLs don't exists... but given the necrotic fools at Theforce.Net however..

Yeah, too bad they still show the big heavy turrets