This is a request for a piece of scripture I cannot seem to find right at the moment.
We all know about the "Love the Sin, Hate the Sinner" mentality. When asked to produce evidence of this ideology in scripture, a debate opponent cited three pieces of the bible. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Also "Judge not lest ye be judged." The third one I forgot and cannot recall because the debate thread in question was actually deleted by StarTrekAdmin at StarTrek.com
My response, which I plan to deliver to my opponent via private messaging basically points out that the sin and sinner are not considered to be separate but in fact are considered to be the same. IIRC Jesus himself said something to this effect, but I'm not 100% sure. This is the verse I am searching for.
Other posters, feel free to re-hash the "Hate the Sinner, Love the Sin" issue in this thread if you so choose. Thanks for any input or consideration on this topic.
-M
Biblical Question - looking for Jesus quote
Moderator: Alyrium Denryle
-
Darth Lucifer
- Jedi Council Member
- Posts: 1685
- Joined: 2004-10-14 04:18am
- Location: In pursuit of the Colonial Fleet
It is only a popular catchphrase with no basis whatsoever in the bible, the old testament is quite clear on the topic of sin and sinner being inseperate, and JC never says anything to that effect.
The passage below is what most people quote when claiming that JC said something to that effect. But the problem is that there is nothing about hating the sin in there. Instead you get the "do to others.." and the "Forgive, and you will be forgiven..." nowhere is the sin/sinner seperate enteties, instead the premise of the teaching of that passage is that if you lead by example and forgive the sinners, then you will be rewarded for it and that you 'might' save the sinner. When you put that next to another JC message that only someone without sin can judge others it is clear that you should not focus on other people's sin and that instead you should always first focus on your own sin and if you give it your best shot you might be forgiven. So according to JC "hating the sin" is a sin in itself and will keep you out of gods love. Which means that anyone teaching "Hate the sin" is directly opposing JC's teachings.
Some google foo later:
linka
The passage below is what most people quote when claiming that JC said something to that effect. But the problem is that there is nothing about hating the sin in there. Instead you get the "do to others.." and the "Forgive, and you will be forgiven..." nowhere is the sin/sinner seperate enteties, instead the premise of the teaching of that passage is that if you lead by example and forgive the sinners, then you will be rewarded for it and that you 'might' save the sinner. When you put that next to another JC message that only someone without sin can judge others it is clear that you should not focus on other people's sin and that instead you should always first focus on your own sin and if you give it your best shot you might be forgiven. So according to JC "hating the sin" is a sin in itself and will keep you out of gods love. Which means that anyone teaching "Hate the sin" is directly opposing JC's teachings.
What it seems that folk miss is that JC tought that he himself was without sin and therefore could judge others, so whenever they point to JC "hating sin" or judging sin he but no one else is entitled to do that. Which is also confirmed by the teaching that he sits by god's right side during judgement in revelations.http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=6&version=31&context=chapter wrote:Love for Enemies
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Judging Others
37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
39He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
41"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Some google foo later:
linka
"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is an exceedingly clumsy way of recognizing that certain behavior is sinful, while also recognizing that we are not any better than the person sinning since we're sinners ourselves.
I personally dislike the phrase since it's somewhat of a buzzword, and because it uses the term "hate". If I were writing it I'd say "Love the sinner, understand the sin." or something like that.
I personally dislike the phrase since it's somewhat of a buzzword, and because it uses the term "hate". If I were writing it I'd say "Love the sinner, understand the sin." or something like that.
Shit like this is why I'm kind of glad it isn't legal to go around punching people in the crotch. You'd be able to track my movement from orbit from the sheer mass of idiots I'd leave lying on the ground clutching their privates in my wake. -- Mr. Coffee
-
mr friendly guy
- The Doctor
- Posts: 11235
- Joined: 2004-12-12 10:55pm
- Location: In a 1960s police telephone box somewhere in Australia
I wonder how Christians would react if we use the same pseudo logic and say "hate Christianity, but love the Christian" when we rip apart their religion.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.
Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
