Civilization Chart (split from the Culture thread)

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-05 02:32am

This isn't directly Culture related but the Spacebattles Organization Chart (started by OmegaPaladin) gives a rough idea of where the Culture and SW stand relative to the other reasonably well known universes. Some of the placements here, particularly that of the Triad, are open to severe question but such debates really belong in another thread.

Code: Select all

{A}Extrauniversal Omnipotents (1) / OBS
{B}Excession / Jjaro / Wr'krkanter
{C}TimeLords / Circle of Oroborus/
{D}Intrauniversal Omnipotents (2) / Triad /
{E}Blight (VV) / Countermeasure (VV) / Arisians (ES) / Eddorians (ES) / machine UI / human UI
{F}Demi-Omnipotents (3) / Xeelee / Photino Birds /
{G}Powers (VV) / Transcendent Order (DB) / The Culture (IB) / Homomda (IB)/ Second Empire
{H}Foundation Federation / Skylark (ES) / Lorien / Uplift Orders (DB)
{I}4th Empire (DW) / Idirans (IB) / Lensmen (ES) / Thrint (LN) / Tnuctipun (LN) / Technocore / High Beyond (VV)/ First Empire
{J}TA (4) / 5th Imperium (DW) / Antarians / Precursors / ST Furies / 29th ST / Moties / Rifts /
{K}Steltek / ST Builders (5) / NAFS / MoO races / Alpha Centauri / Replicators / Krikkets / Lesser Beyond
{L}WH40K (6) / Pax / Hegemony / B5 First Ones (7) / Asgard / Jurai / Dune / Magog / Furyverse (DW)
{M}Shivans(8) / Galactic Empire / Exordium / Systems Commonwealth / B5 Advanced Elders (9) / CW / Tollans / Honorverse (DW) / Macross / Starfire (DW) / Old Republic / RW Humanity (LN) /
{N}B5 Elder Races (10) / WC / GTVA / Beast / Adamists / Edenists / Yuuzhan Vong / BSG / Ad Astra / Renegade Legion /
{O}24th ST Races (11) / Concordiat of Man / New Republic / Book Psychlos / 24th Drakaverse / Kushan / Taiidan / New Alliance(IW) / Star League / Kzinti (LN) /
{P}Commonwealth(IW) / B5 Younger Races (12) / Abh Empire(CT) / Peacekeepers / Book SST / Terran Hegemony / 23rd ST Races (13) / Traveller / Battletech 3K (14) /
{Q}Battletech 2K (15)/ Dark Reign / Protoss / 22nd ST races (16) / Visitors / Goa'uld /
{R}SaaB / Aliens / Ogreverse / Heavy Gear / Gundam / UED / Zerg / Cowboy Bebop Humans / Space: 1999 / 20th Drakaverse
{S}Modern Earth / EFC / SG-1 Earth / Skynet / Kazon / MGS Earth
{T}ID4 / Movie Psychlos /
{U}The Race / WW2 Earth /
{V}Movie SST / Pakleds

Notes:1 place = major threat, 2 places minor threat, 3 places = barely a threat, 4 places = no threat whatsover to combat vessels, 5 places = no threat period.

1. Beings, like L-sama, the creators of the Excession, or Yog-Sothoth, who could survive the end of the universe(s).
2. Beings, like Galactus, Q, the Douwd, Guardian of Forever Builders, and the Chaos Gods, possessing power to warp the universe, but could not survive its end.
3. Beings of vast power, yet not on the level of changing the entire universe. Lina Inverse, AD&D ubercreatures, DBZ main characters, the Timelords, Mike Callahan, and many Marvel/DC characters are up here.
4. With Canon fiction.
5. Builders of the Probe, V'ger, Dyson Spere, Unity Device etc along with the Iconians and T'kon.
6. Most reasonable numbers for just the regular forces.
7. Vorlons, Shadows, Walkers, etc. For all out fighting
8. Based on abilites as of FS2. True abilities are unknown.
9. Builders of Great Machine, Technomages, Kirishiac, Ikaarans etc
10. Minbari, Drakh, First One Toy Forces, etc
11. Alpha Quadrant, Borg, etc.
12. EA, Centauri, Narn, etc.
13. Movie era only. I'm not touching TOS here. By the cult of connies standards, they are demi-omnipotent.
14. 2800-3035
15. 3035-
16. Enterpise-era races

(DB) From the works of David Brin
(LN) From the works of Larry Niven
(DW) From the works of David Weber
(VV) From the works of Vernor Vinge
(IB) From the works of Iain Banks
(ES) From the works of E. E. Smith
(IW) From the I-War series
(CT) From Crest of the Stars

Note: OBS was a SB RPG thing.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-05 01:39pm

enlightenment, that chart is so fucked up its not worth including. For instance, in {L} there is B5 First Ones (vorlons, etc), the Asgard, the Jurai, Dune, and the Magog. In {M} is the Empire, Commonwealth, Tollans, MACROSS, etc.

This is ridiculous and I know everyone else would agree. These SBers are obviously smoking something. We've done it before but we really NEED to make an official SDN civilisation classification chart.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-05 01:46pm

I propose a chart with some basic units by which to measure a civilisation:

Industrial capacity (size of largest facilities maybe?)
Common weapons strength
Most power weapons strength
FTL speed
Empire size
Time travel
Average of all above

For omnipotents everything would be the highest rating. We might think of using a scale of 1-10 or 1-100 can assigning values according to category. For instance, FTL would require a logarithmic scale because some universe have very slow FTL and some have instant travel to anywhere. You get the idea.

We would use only canon and official (non-conflicting with canon) data that has been demonstrated in the works, and is not unreasonably beyond the previously known capabilities (like if there was a ST character that says the Federation built a 100 mile wide planet nuking space station but we never actually see it) so noone can use bullshit evidence.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-05 01:46pm

Might as well see where various fantasy civilizations fit in it(Netheril, etc). Yes, I'm an ego-hog.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-01-05 02:27pm

Futher, why is Star Trek higher than the Protoss?

Shinova · Post by **Shinova** » 2003-01-05 04:05pm

Guys, I think that force org chart was done before ICS.

Singular Quartet · Post by **Singular Quartet** » 2003-01-10 02:17pm

Shinova wrote:Guys, I think that force org chart was done before ICS.

Actually, the org chart went through a few revisions after the ICS, so unless he has an old version, it should be correct.

Hemnlock grey: !: SB has large groups of people who hate SC, 2: Because carriers can be destroyed by marines. On the ground.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-11 02:00pm

kojikun wrote:enlightenment, that chart is so fucked up its not worth including. For instance, in {L} there is B5 First Ones (vorlons, etc), the Asgard, the Jurai, Dune, and the Magog. In {M} is the Empire, Commonwealth, Tollans, MACROSS, etc.

This is ridiculous and I know everyone else would agree. These SBers are obviously smoking something. We've done it before but we really NEED to make an official SDN civilisation classification chart.

And may I ask what upset you so about that?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-11 02:02pm

kojikun wrote:I propose a chart with some basic units by which to measure a civilisation:

Industrial capacity (size of largest facilities maybe?)
Common weapons strength
Most power weapons strength
FTL speed
Empire size
Time travel
Average of all above

And what do you think has been used to make the SB chart?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-11 05:07pm

And may I ask what upset you so about that?

I'm going to stare blankly now.

And what do you think has been used to make the SB chart?

I'm willing to wager that the higher up a civilisation got, the further the SB idiots shot their load while jerking to them.

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-11 05:15pm

Well, I assume you don't agree with the placement of B5 FOS higher than the Galactic Empire. By this you contradict your own system. B5 might have pathetic weapons but the other aspects of the FOs far surpass the GE. For instance , take the Walker's abilities to map out realspace, hyperspace, and thirdspace. IIRC, they managed to take a planet's moon to another direction. Clearly, this is a bit beyond SW technology-vise.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Enlightenment · Post by **Enlightenment** » 2003-01-11 08:11pm

fgalkin wrote:For instance , take the Walker's abilities to map out realspace, hyperspace, and thirdspace. IIRC, they managed to take a planet's moon to another direction. Clearly, this is a bit beyond SW technology-vise.

To a first approximation, stopping Jupiter in its tracks and putting into a retrograde orbit would take several orders of magnitude less energy than the Death Star used to destroy Alderaan. The FOs have a lot of party tricks up their sleeves but there's just no contest between the FOs and the GE as far as brute force is concerned.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-01-11 08:18pm

fgalkin wrote:Well, I assume you don't agree with the placement of B5 FOS higher than the Galactic Empire. By this you contradict your own system. B5 might have pathetic weapons but the other aspects of the FOs far surpass the GE. For instance , take the Walker's abilities to map out realspace, hyperspace, and thirdspace. IIRC, they managed to take a planet's moon to another direction. Clearly, this is a bit beyond SW technology-vise.

But in terms of just about everything else they're far behind the Galatic Empire.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-11 08:23pm

SW tech was capable of moving a planet to another dimension(Rogue Planet). Now get on your knees, bitch!

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-13 11:42pm

Enlightenment wrote:
fgalkin wrote:For instance , take the Walker's abilities to map out realspace, hyperspace, and thirdspace. IIRC, they managed to take a planet's moon to another direction. Clearly, this is a bit beyond SW technology-vise.
To a first approximation, stopping Jupiter in its tracks and putting into a retrograde orbit would take several orders of magnitude less energy than the Death Star used to destroy Alderaan. The FOs have a lot of party tricks up their sleeves but there's just no contest between the FOs and the GE as far as brute force is concerned.

I wrote direction, this is my bad, I meant dimension as in Hyperspace, thirdspace, you know.

That is a bit beyond the GE, don't you think.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-14 02:16am

Honorverse and Macross are technologically equal to the GE? Rifts is fucking equal to the 5th Imperium?!

Who came up with this fucking garbage, I'm going to rip off their dicks and skullfuck them to death with 'em

Kosh_The_Vorlon · Post by **Kosh_The_Vorlon** » 2003-01-14 09:21am

On the other hand, the Jjaro and the Wyr'cactntr (which is closer to the correct spelling than the abomination that's listed on the Chart) are where they're supposed to be: at the top.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-01-14 11:39am

fgalkin wrote:
Enlightenment wrote:
fgalkin wrote:For instance , take the Walker's abilities to map out realspace, hyperspace, and thirdspace. IIRC, they managed to take a planet's moon to another direction. Clearly, this is a bit beyond SW technology-vise.
To a first approximation, stopping Jupiter in its tracks and putting into a retrograde orbit would take several orders of magnitude less energy than the Death Star used to destroy Alderaan. The FOs have a lot of party tricks up their sleeves but there's just no contest between the FOs and the GE as far as brute force is concerned.
I wrote direction, this is my bad, I meant dimension as in Hyperspace, thirdspace, you know.

That is a bit beyond the GE, don't you think.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Nope. Rogue Planet has a planet entering hyperspace under it's own power.

The_Nice_Guy · Post by **The_Nice_Guy** » 2003-01-14 11:46am

Question.

Why is ID4 ranked lower than modern earth?

Also, even as a BT fan, I think it's ranked too high.

Oh, right, you mixed up the BT ages. 3035 already saw the recovery of tech from the Star League era, and the clans further brought tech advances like cloning tech etc. So BT 3035- is generally better than 2800-3035 tech.

In fact, I think you should class the Star League(if it's from BT) as (P), along with BT 3035-. Terran Hegemony and BT 2800-3035 should be (Q).

The Nice Guy

Post by **fgalkin** » 2003-01-14 08:52pm

SirNitram wrote:
fgalkin wrote:
Enlightenment wrote: To a first approximation, stopping Jupiter in its tracks and putting into a retrograde orbit would take several orders of magnitude less energy than the Death Star used to destroy Alderaan. The FOs have a lot of party tricks up their sleeves but there's just no contest between the FOs and the GE as far as brute force is concerned.
I wrote direction, this is my bad, I meant dimension as in Hyperspace, thirdspace, you know.

That is a bit beyond the GE, don't you think.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
Nope. Rogue Planet has a planet entering hyperspace under it's own power.

1. Different hyperspaces.

2. It's easy to put an engine on a planet and make it move. It's much harder to move it in some other way.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Jawawithagun · Post by **Jawawithagun** » 2003-01-14 09:17pm

Enlightenment wrote:To a first approximation, stopping Jupiter in its tracks and putting into a retrograde orbit would take several orders of magnitude less energy than the Death Star used to destroy Alderaan. The FOs have a lot of party tricks up their sleeves but there's just no contest between the FOs and the GE as far as brute force is concerned.

Still doesn't mean they can apply all that energy in a manner controlled enough to not destroy (or damage) the object they're moving.
We had the Bomb before we had workable fission reactors and we do have the hydrogen bomb without having any working fusion reactor.

Power is nothing! Control is everything!

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-01-14 09:18pm

Why is ID4 ranked lower than modern earth?

Because their biggest and best ships were blown up by common airfighters and a computer virus written for a mac?

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-01-14 09:40pm

consequences wrote:Honorverse and Macross are technologically equal to the GE? Rifts is fucking equal to the 5th Imperium?!
Who came up with this fucking garbage, I'm going to rip off their dicks and skullfuck them to death with 'em

I'll agree with honorverse. But I'll debate anyone on macross. 4 billion ships are possed by the zentradi by Macross after thousands of years of war. And we have calcs of 17 tt in main weapons (not reflex cannons) on many ships. Then we have proto-devlin that have been described as being able to destroy multiply solar systems and brain wash entire plantary populations.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2003-01-14 10:18pm

Macross has just never struck me as that much of a threat. BTW, which Macross are we talking about? There are several distinct universes involved.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-01-14 10:26pm

Gives us an idea...though how does anyone propose we make it pretty much unbiased?

Because honestly Rifts is just odd to see it up there given the sheer differences within the same universe...and Dune really has never demonstrated the level of power they are saying it does.