General Order 24

[Stark]

Accusing Dr Saxton of giving a shit about the vs debate is pretty funny. Anyone can read his site - it shows his rationale - and it never mentions Star Trek. He's interested in *consistency*, and it just turns out SW is consistently far more powerful than the stupid RPG or excerable EU would have you believe.

[Surlethe]

Accusing Dr Saxton of giving a shit about the vs debate is pretty funny. Anyone can read his site - it shows his rationale - and it never mentions Star Trek. He's interested in *consistency*, and it just turns out SW is consistently far more powerful than the stupid RPG or excerable EU would have you believe.

Actually, Dr Saxton has explicitly stated that he does not give one shit about Star Wars vs. Star Trek. Ref.

[Kane Starkiller]

I could find only a single post that even approaches some kind of "vs" argument here:

STvsSW threads are notoriously capable of devouring human energy and
time, but I am tempted today to take a dip in the stagnant pool and
address the silliest Trekkist fallacies.

Graham Kennedy wrote:

> In article <33CE96D6.7...@eos.ncsu.edu>, James Grady Ward
> <jgw...@eos.ncsu.edu> writes
> >Graham Kennedy wrote:

> >> [...] It
> >> is true that the beam displays some properties of a laser beam - i.e. it
> >> travels at the speed of light, in straight lines, etc. Should this be
> >> the case, then of course the beam would be utterly unable to affect any
> >> Startrek vessel equipped with navigational shields. This includes
> >> Starships, Runabouts, and Shuttlecraft - though it does NOT include
> >> space stations such as Spacedock or DS9.

> >[Dominion stuff cut.]

> But since DS9 does not move at high speed, it does not have NAVIGATIONAL
> shields. These are the only ones we know to be immune to lasers.

What a peculiar fixation! A particular kind of shield immune to a
particular kind of weapon, regardless of power? Regardless of whether
the weapon power exceeds the dissipative capacities so carefully stated
in the TrekTech manuals?

Consider this dialogue:

ST: My skin is immune to butterflies.
SW: How do you know?
ST: A butterfly blundered into a collision with my nose yesterday. I
am unharmed.
SW: But if you are hit by 10^40 butterflies simultaneously moving in
the same direction, you'll be knocked off your feet.
ST: [Voice becoming shrill as her faith is challenged.] Utter
nonsense! It's all butterflies! It doesn't matter how many butterflies
hit me or how energetic they are! It's all just butterflies! You know
nothing about physics!
SW: I see.


- C.J.Saxton
STAR WARS Technical Commentaries
http://www.physics.usyd.edu.au/~saxton/starwars/

Really the "some shields are immune to some weapon types regardless of firepower" argument goes way beyond STvsSW debate and into pure stupidity which is why Dr. Saxton bothered to reply. He doesn't go into the actual "who would win" argument merely pointing out the scientific ignorance of some of the Trekkies.

[OmegaGuy]

TheRedFear? I actually know this guy, he's a CBR poster, and his anti - Star - Wars positions make even most other CBR posters look like rabid Warsies.

IIRC he once stated that a single GCS could defeat every ship in the SW galaxy at once

[CaptHawkeye]

"You've already shown that like all warsies you ignore proof you dislike. So go dig up your own proof. It aint hard to find. Google's a wonderful thing. You ignore Lucas's own words. You ignore Saxton's well known bias against Star Trek and for Star Wars. The man's an embarassment to his PhD."

R Lee Ermy: OH MY GOD. OOHHHH MY FUCKING GOD... WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?

Shrug this asshole off. He's a lieing cocksucker and he knows it. He's just trying to play on the mentality of idiot public at youtube.

Insulting Saxton's PhD? I'd like to know exactly what this Mr. RedFear's qualifications are. I can imagine he's got his "University of Darkstar" diploma right above his computer.

[Surlethe]

As we're seeing in this particular debate, the problem with something like "General Order 24 vs. Base Delta Zero" is not that Trekkies tend to inflate GO-24 numbers -- they might, but not often -- but rather that they try to deflate BDZ numbers. This is similar to a textbook creationist tactic, by the way -- try to disprove evolution, and assume creationism is therefore true.

[Darth Ruinus]

he seems to have shut up after i repeatedly asked him for proof on anything that he says, hopefully he stays like that

anyways thanks guys for all the help, hopefully after showing no proof for any of his claims he'll stay out of that particular debate, unless of course he is a rabid Trekkie

oh wait......

[Darth Servo]

Really the "some shields are immune to some weapon types regardless of firepower" argument goes way beyond STvsSW debate and into pure stupidity which is why Dr. Saxton bothered to reply. He doesn't go into the actual "who would win" argument merely pointing out the scientific ignorance of some of the Trekkies.

Its Graham Kennedy. What do you expect?

[PayBack]

R Lee Ermy: OH MY GOD. OOHHHH MY FUCKING GOD... WHAT THE FUCK IS THAT?

Holllleee Jesus what is that? What the fuck is that?!! What is that?!!!

(sorry for the spam but if you're going to quote such a great charactor in such a great movie, it should be quoted correctly! )

[MagnusTheReD]

he seems to have shut up after i repeatedly asked him for proof on anything that he says, hopefully he stays like that

anyways thanks guys for all the help, hopefully after showing no proof for any of his claims he'll stay out of that particular debate, unless of course he is a rabid Trekkie

oh wait......

Guess what, the troll have just shown his face again, mere nine hours ago!
You didn't see this one coming, did you?

And in case you didn't know, the Federation beat the Xindi Superweapon. So yeah, recognize the facts. the best weapon in the Empire is old news in the Federation.

I wonder if he really is that stupid or he just hopes that no one else ever saw that episode?

I case you never saw that episode, he is obviously talking about this weapon.
Just point out to him that it's a chain reaction weapon which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the monster that is the DS, that this weapon is a shameless rip off from the original DS, and maybe tell him that he's a retard or something...

[CaptHawkeye]

Oh wow, look at it slowly DISASSEMBLE the planet through a core reaction. Please, the Death Star was not only able to punch through one of the strongest shield generators in the galaxy, it was also able to instantly vaporize the entire planet. But this asshole is a straight out liar. So it's not surprising.

[Lord Revan]

we should also remember that in the current time line the only anyone has ever seen the Xindi weapon do is blow up it was never fired (the vid in question is from an alternitive timeline), it one thing to see simulations of what something might do (based on what the prototypes did) then to actually see it being done, anyone can claim to be able to destroy a planet (and as we that even in Star Trek not every claim is true (even if it was honest))

[Darth Wong]

And in case you didn't know, the Federation beat the Xindi Superweapon. So yeah, recognize the facts. the best weapon in the Empire is old news in the Federation.

I wonder if he really is that stupid or he just hopes that no one else ever saw that episode?

The latter, I'm sure. The Federation never beat the Xindi, in any timeline. Instead, they convinced part of the Xindi alliance to join them, by offering to help them stop hostile invaders from another dimension by destroying mysterious field-generating sphere structures which blah blah blah technobabble blah blah blah you get the idea. Realistically, the Federation, the Andorians, the Vulcans, and the Romulans all get their asses kicked by the Xindi, and badly.

And that's totally leaving aside the fact that the Xindi planet-killer had only a miniscule fraction of DS power output, judging by the delayed expansion.

[Darth Servo]

Anyway, wasn't it shown that Enterprise was just one of Riker's holodeck fantasies?

[Darth Wong]

Anyway, wasn't it shown that Enterprise was just one of Riker's holodeck fantasies?

Well certainly, the total absence of any Xindi species from the TNG timeline would seem to suggest that. And of course, we all know about the abortion that was the final episode of ENT. But I just thought it was important to point out that the Xindi were basically portrayed as totally unstoppable in ENT, and there was no hope of victory whatsoever until they managed to get most of the Xindi on their side. So any Trek fanboy who says "the Xindi had a superweapon and the Feds beat them" is lying even more so than usual for a Trek fanboy.

[General Trelane (Retired)]

Oh wow, look at it slowly DISASSEMBLE the planet through a core reaction. Please, the Death Star was not only able to punch through one of the strongest shield generators in the galaxy, it was also able to instantly vaporize the entire planet. But this asshole is a straight out liar. So it's not surprising.

You do realize that Alderaan wasn't vaporized, don't you? This may seem like a nitpick, but precision of terminology is important when beating up on Trek--especially because Trekkies misuse this term frequently too. . .

[Starglider]

You do realize that Alderaan wasn't vaporized, don't you?

Vaporizing an earthlike planet would actully take much less energy than blowing it apart at a significant fraction of the speed of light.

This may seem like a nitpick, but precision of terminology is important when beating up on Trek--especially because Trekkies misuse this term frequently too. . .

But yes, precision is vital.

[CaptHawkeye]

Oh wow, look at it slowly DISASSEMBLE the planet through a core reaction. Please, the Death Star was not only able to punch through one of the strongest shield generators in the galaxy, it was also able to instantly vaporize the entire planet. But this asshole is a straight out liar. So it's not surprising.

You do realize that Alderaan wasn't vaporized, don't you? This may seem like a nitpick, but precision of terminology is important when beating up on Trek--especially because Trekkies misuse this term frequently too. . .

Eh, I could have worded it better indeed. This is why I avoid direct arguing with Trekkies, I don't tend to be ultra literal in my wording. I know they just LOVE to pick at minor things and blow them up.

[Darth Servo]

Instead, they convinced part of the Xindi alliance to join them, by offering to help them stop hostile invaders from another dimension by destroying mysterious field-generating sphere structures which blah blah blah technobabble blah blah blah you get the idea.

I just don't get this idiocy. The Xindi can kick the crap out of the entire alpha quadrant. Why the hell do they need the wuss-human's help with these extra-dimenntional invaders? Are the Xindi the ENT version of the borg or something? Completely incapable of being flexible and countering unexpected threats? Are humans the only beings in Trek capable of creative thought?

And yes, I know ENT included the borg once thus urinating on continuity again.

[Bounty]

Why the hell do they need the wuss-human's help with these extra-dimenntional invaders? Are the Xindi the ENT version of the borg or something?

The Xindi had gone through a civil war which wiped out one of their subspecies and destroyed their homeworld (as in, blasted to rubble). After these events, they became obsessed with survival, forming a Council to force themselves to cooperate and stop killing eachother. They spent the next few centuries looking for a suitable new homeworld.

That's when the Sphere Builders came in. They told the Xindi - and offered some sort of fabricated proof - that the humans would wipe them out when they had the chance. The reason these Builders poked the Xindi was because in the 26th century, they themselves would be badly defeated by the Federation during a botched invasion. They'd scanned multiple timelines that all ended in their defeat so they decided to alter time itself to win, but they weren't able to send personnel back, only technology and information, so they needed agents in the past - the Xindi.

Daniels intervened, because he knew what the Sphere Builders didn't want the Xindo to know - that in the original timeline, the Xindi were UFP members and actively fighting the Builders. He tried to convince Archer to talk to the Xindi and present them evidence of the Builders' plan, but Archer decided to do his little Al Qaeda-carbomb stunt instead. In captivity he did manage to turn one Xindi who was already suspicious that something fishy was going on, but that just created a rift within the Xindi - one the one hand, the Arboreals and Primates, who tentatively believed Archer that they were being played; on the other, the Insectoids and Reptilians who wanted to see blood and launched the final attack on earth behind the others' backs. Degra - the Pruimate who trusted Archer - convinced the Aquatics, the most powerful Xindi faction, that an attack on Earth was not in the Xindi's best interest, leading the three factions and Archer to pool resources: Degra's ship, equipped with a Vortex drive and a task force of human MACOs, would chase the Xindi Death Star to Earth, while Enterprise destroyed the Spheres, giant automated constructs that were sent back by the Sphere Builders to remake out universe in their image, since their reality had different physical properties. Enterprise could do this thanks to information gathered during the earlier parts of their mission in the Expanse.

------------------------

I hope you're happy now, because making sense of S3 ENT kills more neurons than pure ethanol.

[ShadowSonic]

The Borg episode didn't mess up continuity THAT badly, although it was rather ill-conceived. I think it may have been an attempt to make up for the Hanson's knowing about the Borg in VOY and why the Borg attacked the Neutral Zone in TNG S1 and then just left, because it did solve both mysteries.

Now, the Ferengi episode, THAT was just a dumb concept (but a funny episode).

As for the Xindi, they got the planetkiller tech from the Sphere-Builders, and had been worshipping the Sphere-Builders for a long time so they were semi-conditioned into not harming them. Plus it's not like some Xindi wanted to fight the Sphere-Builders, the Insectoids and Reptiles were willing and loyal servants, and the Aquatics were pretty neutral until Archer said something that convinced them to join the fight (I forget what).

And it's the unified Xindi that are a real threat to the Alpha Quadrant, not each individual Xindi-species. However, without the Sphere Builders to unify them in faith and stuff, the Xindi sub-species are constantly at each others' throats and aren't unified enough to fight together.

As for what happened to them, the more friendly ones are probably Fed members, while the nastier ones probably got something akin to the Kzin-deal, where they're isolated from space-travel. They're up there with plenty of TOS races we never heard from again in TNG+.

[ShadowSonic]

Forget what I said, Bounty said it better.

[brianeyci]

I thought the canonical reason the Xindi were never seen was because the Delphic Expanse disappeared and sucked in the Xindi homeworld with it.

I don't know why they have to go with the stereotypes. The Insectoids and Reptilians are evil. I got over talking animals when I was a kid. I almost prefer a bit of face putty instead of talking animals. They just made caricatures. The whole aquatics with their super ships reeked of Atlantis. Ewww.

[Bounty]

I thought the canonical reason the Xindi were never seen was because the Delphic Expanse disappeared and sucked in the Xindi homeworld with it.

If you squint a bit, you can say the Xendi Starbase from ENT was a typo.

That said, the Xindi weren't a prominent species to begin with. They weren't major, feared power, just a third-rate gang of emotionally scarred xenophobes that were easy to manipulate.

The Insectoids and Reptilians are evil. I got over talking animals when I was a kid. I almost prefer a bit of face putty instead of talking animals. They just made caricatures. The whole aquatics with their super ships reeked of Atlantis. Ewww.

I didn't make the Aquatics/Atlantis link - yet - but you're right about the caricatures. The idea of neatly distinct, Earth-inspired Xindi groups was bad enough, but making the ugly ones that villains is too comic booky.

The guy who played Degra and the one sloth guy did a decent job, though.

[Bounty]

you can say the Xendi Starbase from ENT was a typo.

Xendi Starbase of TNG. Remember what I said about the ethanol?